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| Mixed response to government's radical probation reforms | Mixed response to government's radical probation reforms |
| (about 5 hours later) | |
| The government is introducing changes to the probation system that it hopes will drive down reoffending rates, but its plans have met with opposition. | The government is introducing changes to the probation system that it hopes will drive down reoffending rates, but its plans have met with opposition. |
| Lee has got something to say. | Lee has got something to say. |
| Something he's ashamed and embarrassed about. | Something he's ashamed and embarrassed about. |
| The 39-year-old Londoner is sitting with his probation officer at a cafe in Bristol, where he now lives. | The 39-year-old Londoner is sitting with his probation officer at a cafe in Bristol, where he now lives. |
| He takes a sip of coffee and a deep breath - and confesses that in order to feed the heroin addiction that's blighted his adult life he's burgled thousands of houses. | |
| And he's been caught so many times that he's spent more than 20 years in prison. | And he's been caught so many times that he's spent more than 20 years in prison. |
| "It was a vicious cycle," he says. | "It was a vicious cycle," he says. |
| When he came out of jail, his drug use would "spiral", he'd commit crimes, and then be arrested and imprisoned again. | When he came out of jail, his drug use would "spiral", he'd commit crimes, and then be arrested and imprisoned again. |
| But over the past six months Lee has turned a corner. | But over the past six months Lee has turned a corner. |
| 'Measurable impact' | 'Measurable impact' |
| A face-to-face meeting with two householders whose homes he'd broken into convinced him it was time to change. | A face-to-face meeting with two householders whose homes he'd broken into convinced him it was time to change. |
| "I was sick of creating victims," he explains. | "I was sick of creating victims," he explains. |
| With the help of probation and other professionals he's trying to come off drugs and go straight. | With the help of probation and other professionals he's trying to come off drugs and go straight. |
| But the government believes there are too many offenders like Lee - too many people stuck in a revolving door of crime, prison, crime, prison. | But the government believes there are too many offenders like Lee - too many people stuck in a revolving door of crime, prison, crime, prison. |
| So it's introducing radical reforms in an attempt to lower reoffending rates and cut the costs to the criminal justice system. | So it's introducing radical reforms in an attempt to lower reoffending rates and cut the costs to the criminal justice system. |
| The key plank of the reforms involves outsourcing the majority of probation work to private firms and voluntary groups. | The key plank of the reforms involves outsourcing the majority of probation work to private firms and voluntary groups. |
| They'll be awarded contracts to supervise low- and medium-risk offenders - there are currently about 160,000 across England and Wales. | They'll be awarded contracts to supervise low- and medium-risk offenders - there are currently about 160,000 across England and Wales. |
| The successful bidders will receive a basic fee for monitoring offenders, which will be topped up if they meet targets to cut reoffending - an approach known as payment-by-results. | The successful bidders will receive a basic fee for monitoring offenders, which will be topped up if they meet targets to cut reoffending - an approach known as payment-by-results. |
| It's similar to a scheme at Peterborough Prison in Cambridgeshire where, since September 2010, short-term prisoners have been given intensive supervision on release. | It's similar to a scheme at Peterborough Prison in Cambridgeshire where, since September 2010, short-term prisoners have been given intensive supervision on release. |
| Risk register | Risk register |
| Chris Grayling, the justice secretary, says Peterborough is a "snapshot of where this world is heading" and is having a "measurable impact" on reoffending rates and the number of crimes committed. | Chris Grayling, the justice secretary, says Peterborough is a "snapshot of where this world is heading" and is having a "measurable impact" on reoffending rates and the number of crimes committed. |
| Interim figures published by his department appear to support his contention: reoffending rates among the Peterborough prisoners are falling, while among a national sample of offenders they are increasing. | Interim figures published by his department appear to support his contention: reoffending rates among the Peterborough prisoners are falling, while among a national sample of offenders they are increasing. |
| But Carol Hedderman, a criminologist from Leicester University, says the statistics don't compare like with like. | But Carol Hedderman, a criminologist from Leicester University, says the statistics don't compare like with like. |
| "The bottom line is that these results don't tell you anything very much," says Prof Hedderman, who's part of an independent team commissioned by the Ministry of Justice to examine the Peterborough project. | "The bottom line is that these results don't tell you anything very much," says Prof Hedderman, who's part of an independent team commissioned by the Ministry of Justice to examine the Peterborough project. |
| "Until we do our much more detailed and sophisticated analysis you won't know the answer to that question as to whether Peterborough has been a success or not," Prof Hedderman says, adding that she has not yet seen any examples of effective payment-by-results schemes. | "Until we do our much more detailed and sophisticated analysis you won't know the answer to that question as to whether Peterborough has been a success or not," Prof Hedderman says, adding that she has not yet seen any examples of effective payment-by-results schemes. |
| There are other warning signs about the government's probation reforms. | There are other warning signs about the government's probation reforms. |
| BBC File on 4 has been shown a "risk register" - a document compiled by civil servants to gauge which parts of the reforms could be problematic. | BBC File on 4 has been shown a "risk register" - a document compiled by civil servants to gauge which parts of the reforms could be problematic. |
| It sets out risks ranging from a failure to deliver the reforms on time and to a sufficient standard, to reputational damage to the Ministry of Justice. | It sets out risks ranging from a failure to deliver the reforms on time and to a sufficient standard, to reputational damage to the Ministry of Justice. |
| A second, more recent, risk register written by probation managers paints a similar picture. | A second, more recent, risk register written by probation managers paints a similar picture. |
| But Mr Grayling says the documents are designed to ensure that risks are planned for. | But Mr Grayling says the documents are designed to ensure that risks are planned for. |
| "It would alarm me if the team running the project and my team here wasn't thinking of the consequences of things that could go wrong and wasn't taking steps to make sure they didn't," he says. | "It would alarm me if the team running the project and my team here wasn't thinking of the consequences of things that could go wrong and wasn't taking steps to make sure they didn't," he says. |
| Appeals lodged | Appeals lodged |
| The probation union, Napo, is considering a legal challenge against the government to halt the reforms - one of the potential grounds is that ministers acted unreasonably because they knew the reforms were fraught with difficulty. | The probation union, Napo, is considering a legal challenge against the government to halt the reforms - one of the potential grounds is that ministers acted unreasonably because they knew the reforms were fraught with difficulty. |
| Napo, which represents more than 7,000 staff, is also concerned about the process for allocating probation officers to their roles in the new system. | Napo, which represents more than 7,000 staff, is also concerned about the process for allocating probation officers to their roles in the new system. |
| Some are being told they'll be working for the out-sourced organisations, to be known as community rehabilitation companies. | Some are being told they'll be working for the out-sourced organisations, to be known as community rehabilitation companies. |
| Others will be employed by a new public body, the National Probation Service, which will deal with high-risk offenders including sex attackers and those convicted of serous violence. | Others will be employed by a new public body, the National Probation Service, which will deal with high-risk offenders including sex attackers and those convicted of serous violence. |
| Napo says 553 probation officers from about half of the probation areas have lodged appeals against the roles they've been assigned - with 119 successful so far. | Napo says 553 probation officers from about half of the probation areas have lodged appeals against the roles they've been assigned - with 119 successful so far. |
| Mr Grayling says the number of appeals is a "tiny fraction" of what he was expecting - but it's expected to increase significantly as more staff are told where they'll be working. | Mr Grayling says the number of appeals is a "tiny fraction" of what he was expecting - but it's expected to increase significantly as more staff are told where they'll be working. |
| The changes have driven Joanna Hughes, deputy chair of Napo in Gloucestershire, to make a momentous decision. | The changes have driven Joanna Hughes, deputy chair of Napo in Gloucestershire, to make a momentous decision. |
| After 16 years in probation she's quitting and is considering standing as an independent parliamentary candidate at the next election to campaign against the reforms. | After 16 years in probation she's quitting and is considering standing as an independent parliamentary candidate at the next election to campaign against the reforms. |
| She believes that dividing offender supervision between different bodies will lead to communication problems and make further offences more likely. | She believes that dividing offender supervision between different bodies will lead to communication problems and make further offences more likely. |
| "All the reasons I became a probation officer are now being destroyed," she says. | "All the reasons I became a probation officer are now being destroyed," she says. |
| Pressing ahead | Pressing ahead |
| Joanna won't be the only one to depart. File on 4 has learned that ten of the 33 most senior probation officials plan to leave when their probation trusts are abolished as part of the reforms. | Joanna won't be the only one to depart. File on 4 has learned that ten of the 33 most senior probation officials plan to leave when their probation trusts are abolished as part of the reforms. |
| The Probation Chiefs Association says it represents a loss of "hundreds of years of experience". | The Probation Chiefs Association says it represents a loss of "hundreds of years of experience". |
| But the justice secretary is pressing ahead with the changes, due in place in April next year, before the general election. | But the justice secretary is pressing ahead with the changes, due in place in April next year, before the general election. |
| Under his reforms, almost 50,000 adult offenders released from jail terms of under 12 months will be monitored on release. | Under his reforms, almost 50,000 adult offenders released from jail terms of under 12 months will be monitored on release. |
| They're the group with the highest reoffending rates, but there's currently no legal requirement for them to be supervised. | They're the group with the highest reoffending rates, but there's currently no legal requirement for them to be supervised. |
| Mr Grayling says at last they will leave jail with more than just a cash discharge grant of £46. | Mr Grayling says at last they will leave jail with more than just a cash discharge grant of £46. |
| But if the reforms are to work, then more offenders like Lee, the heroin addict and repeat burglar, will have to be motivated and given the right help. | But if the reforms are to work, then more offenders like Lee, the heroin addict and repeat burglar, will have to be motivated and given the right help. |
| "A lot of clients will stick their fingers up," says an unconvinced Lee. "They'd rather go to jail and sit in jail with a telly, three meals a day, than being out here, being on tag." | "A lot of clients will stick their fingers up," says an unconvinced Lee. "They'd rather go to jail and sit in jail with a telly, three meals a day, than being out here, being on tag." |
| File on 4 will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 20:00 GMT on Tuesday 18 February. |