Andy Burnham: 'I will run the government ragged'

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In the second of a series of in-depth profiles of the four Labour leadership candidates, Iain Watson catches up with Andy Burnham and his supporters at a campaign rally.

Labour is at a crossroads.

There are two roads it can go down, says Andy Burnham - the shadow health secretary who wants to lead Labour back to government but recognises his party isn't necessarily on the road to recovery from its recent general election defeat.

Burnham believes - despite having nearly 100 seats fewer than the Conservatives - that Labour can unite and win the next election.

But there are some signs too - especially with left-winger Jeremy Corbyn setting the pace - that it might take a different route.

The leadership contest "could be quite polarising, if we are not careful," says Burnham.

And the party could yet split: "There is a very real danger - the parallels with the mid-to-late 1980s are very, very strong right now. Labour must have one eye on its history all through this."

'Gang of four'

The Leigh MP is speaking to me just ahead of a rally at St Pancras Church in central London.

He is proving it's not just Jeremy Corbyn who has resurrected well-attended public meetings.

About 1,000 people packed in to the pews to hear Burnham and his supporting cast of Sir Keir Starmer, now the local MP but until recently the Director of Public Prosecutions, shadow minister Luciana Berger and former deputy leader Lord Prescott.

So just as well this was a very broad church - but whether Labour can remain so itself is in doubt.

In a barnstorming speech, John Prescott denounced two shadow cabinet members for setting up a 'Common Good' group and suggested this was a similar initiative to the Gang of Four who later formed the SDP in the early 1980s.

This time there was 'a Gang of Two' - and Prescott disparagingly denounced the pair of them: "Chuka (Umunna) and some guy called Tris-teeh-yan (Tristram Hunt)".

The crowd went wild.

'Labour to the core'

It would be a hard act to follow. Burnham praised Prescott as "the best warm up act" and "the original Northern Powerhouse".

Then he, too, addressed the issue of splits, in a way that was perhaps designed to reach those who couldn't recall his party's meltdown of the 1980s.

He announced boy-band One Direction had broken up - and added he didn't want the same to happen to Labour.

He had told me that he would be the person that could "knit the party together again" and told the audience now he was "Labour to the core".

I'd asked if that meant he would serve in a Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet if he himself failed to win the leadership. His rivals Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper had said respectively "no" and "not likely" to that question.

Burnham said there has been no discussions "of any kind" but "generally I will try to help - I am on the uniting front".

Kinnock inspiration

It took a bit of pressing for him to say that both Cooper and Kendall would feature in his shadow cabinet if he won: "It's the wrong time to do a reshuffle but I praised Liz Kendall on what she was saying about devolution, that needs to be part of Labour's story.'

But would he bring all his rivals in to his shadow cabinet?

"I could imagine that - I want to bring people back together."

But yes, he is at his core a party man.

He told me he had started attending local Labour Party meetings of his Culcheth and Glazebury ward - in the Warrington North constituency - in 1984 when he was just 14, officially signing up to the party when he was permitted to do so the following year.

Both national and local factors had brought him in to the Labour fold.

He was impressed with the then leader Neil Kinnock, who is backing his leadership bid.

"He was the figure I related to, when he really hit his stride.. attacking Militant, taking Derek Hatton on. I remember that very vividly. It's a great source of pride to have his support.'

(Kinnock famously denounced the far-left, Militant-controlled Liverpool City Council from the platform at Labour's 1985 conference.)

Nuclear weapons

Unlike some people of his generation, Andy Burnham was not attracted to political activity through CND.

He attended one meeting in Leigh - the nearby Greater Manchester constituency he now represents - with his brother "because we were all worried about nuclear weapons at the time, it loomed large in the minds of young people - Threads was on TV." This was a BBC drama which simulated a nuclear attack on Sheffield.

But he didn't go back - he was ultimately less concerned about abstract threats than what he regarded as the suffering in people's everyday lives.

Another BBC drama, this time set in his native city of Liverpool - Boys From the Blackstuff - had been more influential.

One of its characters - Yosser Hughes - had had his dignity destroyed by unemployment and would utter the desperate catchphrase: "Gizza job - I can do that!"

And the real-life drama of the miners' strike had been unfolding before his eyes.

Although even as a teenager Burnham had been worried about a lack of a ballot before industrial action began, he had been struck by the hardships which those on strike were enduring.

"My school was right by Parkside colliery (in Newton-le-Willows, which closed in 1993) and we went past the picket line every day. I had a lot of friends whose dads were miners."

'Westminster bubble'

So Andy Burnham's background wasn't the most obvious for a Cambridge graduate. His father was a telephone engineer, his mother a receptionist and he attended the local catholic comprehensive, St Aelred's High.

But his time amid the cloisters shaped his thinking as much as what he had seen on his doorstep.

"I didn't think I would fit in at Cambridge, got rejected, and told my mum and dad I was going to Newcastle instead.

"And this letter came out of the blue to go back and they urged me to give it another go.

"I don't regret it but it changed my world view. When you come from the place I was in - with low horizons - then you arrive at university and see what other people take for granted. That shaped me, seeing those two worlds and the disparity between them. I have used the phrase before but the postcode of the bed you are born in still determines where you end up."

He now wants to burst the "Westminster bubble" which he believes insulates those inside it from everyday life - but wasn't he for a long time an occupant?

He had worked for Tessa Jowell when Labour had been in opposition in the 1990s and then had been Chris Smith's special adviser at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport during Tony Blair's first term in office. He then became an MP at the age of 31.

Hillsborough inquiry

'I went back to where I grew up after leaving university because I couldn't get a job.

"I worked unpaid on a local newspaper (he now wants to end unpaid internships) - I eventually got a job at a publishing company.

"I have always represented the seat where I grew up. Most MPs can't say that - it does give you a different perspective. It doesn't make you a creature of Westminster. My family are based there - I don't pay it a fleeting visit."

And he tells me he is thinking about how to change Labour's method of selecting candidates in future.

It had been felt by party organisers that selecting a candidate early in a target seat would give them time to build up their profile but these selection contests can take some time - and the long haul to the election might deter people from some backgrounds and limited incomes.

'To win a Labour Parliamentary selection you probably need to have a job where you can take three to five months off and probably need five or ten grand disposable income.

"It favours certain people with certain backgrounds. There should be much shorter timeframes for selection, which would be less favourable to those who build up all those connections from living in that political world. We need a big change."

He says he detected public disillusionment with politics towards the end of the last Labour government, when it hadn't heard the cries of the whole city of Liverpool over Hillsborough. where 96 football fans had died, and malicious and untrue stories had circulated about their behaviour.

After Labour came to power in 1997 they considered, then ruled out, a fresh inquiry.

Burnham was heckled by Liverpool fans when he spoke at Anfield, at the invitation of then Liverpool mayor Steve Rotherham, on the 20th anniversary of the disaster in 2009 - not because he was an Everton fan but because families felt the government was not listening to them.

'Continuity Miliband'

He raised the issue at the following day's cabinet meeting. This led to the Hillsborough Independent Panel being set up and the truth about the tragedy emerging.

While he was proud of his role here, he says he became increasingly aware that his party was failing to connect with those it claimed, or sought, to represent.

'I have been feeling for a while that Labour's offer has been too timid. When I stood for leader in 2010 (he came fourth) it was part of my critique that modern politics isn't capable of giving people solutions that are big enough to inspire, that it throws out gimmicks and small scale policies that don't make a difference."

So how would he be different?

Back at the St Pancras meeting, 17-year-old George Rogers asks the candidate if he is "continuity Miliband".

Burnham chose to define his differences with the former leader by moving to his left flank, not his right.

Unlike Miliband, he wouldn't just reduce tuition fees in England, he would scrap them. He is looking at a graduate tax, though, and admits higher education cannot simply be free for all.

'Corbyn effect'

There were other crowd-pleasers too - opposition to right to buy for housing association tenants, renationalising of the railways - incrementally, as franchises come up for renewal - and an end to charitable status for private schools.

So, I wondered, if he had become victim of the "Corbyn effect" - ramping up radical rhetoric to try to win a contest which, on the surface, might be attracting new members and supporters because the left-winger was offering an alternative to austerity and mainstream politics.

Or was he - as one of his rivals had put it (without mentioning Burnham by name) - "pandering" to Jeremy Corbyn?

"I don't see it that way, for obvious reasons," he responds.

"The party hierarchy have been misreading the mood amongst members - they want a different kind of politics to the insipid stuff Labour has been serving up in recent times.

"We can't lecture people. It's not a case of me veering completely to the left, or whatever. The substance of what Labour was saying has been too shallow. I'd already felt that. Jeremy has come in, of course, and really spoken to that."

But what appeared to put rocket boosters under Jeremy Corbyn's candidacy was the decision by the shadow cabinet to abstain on - rather than oppose - the Conservatives' Welfare Bill.

This had been at acting leader Harriet Harman's insistence - though in the end she tabled what is called a "reasoned amendment" setting out Labour's differences. Burnham had argued for outright opposition.

'Unity is strength'

He was barracked by one of the political congregation at St Pancras over why he hadn't opposed legislation that could in future see child tax credits restricted to a family's first two children.

He replied that unity was strength and that he hadn't risked splitting the party on the issue.

And this is what he told me: "It was a turning point in the campaign, definitely.

"I argued twice in shadow cabinet that we should oppose. In the second discussion Harriet asked for everyone's views.

"There were a range - abstain; a reasoned amendment then abstain; and a reasoned amendment then oppose. I supported that.

"But too late in the day it looked like we were just going to abstain.

"Under the pressure I applied, the party moved to the position of a reasoned amendment. In effect this was opposition.

"Having forced the change I then had a decision. Did I resign from the shadow cabinet and walk my supporters through the opposite lobby from the rest of the shadow cabinet - or abide by a collective decision that was a compromise?

'Hard-working Opposition'

"It's different for Jeremy - he is not in the shadow cabinet and isn't bound by collective responsibility.

"So it was a no win situation for me - but had I resigned and possibly won the leadership at that moment, it wouldn't have been me. I have never undermine the Labour Party in Parliament.

"If the party becomes divided how do we put it back together on 13 September?' (the day after the new leader is announced). But It's frustrating."

So if he overcomes this political obstacle, and wins the contest, I wanted to find out what the priorities would be for a Burnham leadership.

He's already talked of setting up a new "Beveridge-style commission" after Sir William Beveridge's wartime Social Insurance and Allied Services report, which led to the setting-up of the welfare state.

Burnham's commission would look at reviewing the delivery of a National Health and Care service; the introduction of a universal graduate tax, and funding for apprenticeships.

But he is promising action before words: "The first thing you have to do as leader of the Opposition is do what it says on the tin - oppose.

"I will deliver the most energetic, hard-working Opposition that this party has seen in a long time - I will run the government ragged. That's how I was forged.

"That's what we did pre-1997. Being an effective opposition is crucial. But the second thing is correcting the record over the economy."

Cooper criticism

And for all the left-wing rhetoric, Burnham is determined to address two issues which Labour's own pollsters say became barriers between the party and some of its target voters - the deficit and immigration.

The former is, he agrees, his main point of difference with leadership rival Yvette Cooper.

"I acknowledged the deficit was too high in 2007 - I was Chief Secretary to the Treasury back then, and was asked to bring it down.

"I don't take the view that Yvette seems to - that you just say we got everything absolutely right. It just doesn't wash with people.

"It may work with an internal audience to say that but you have remember you can't just talk to the Labour Party here - you have got to talk to the party and the country. If you are honest about where you went wrong people are more likely to trust you going forward."

But he says the deficit can and should be brought down through tax rises, not just spending cuts and he isn't afraid to say that some taxes will need to go up.

On immigration, he says he has seen the adverse effects in his own constituency: "I will talk about this a lot as leader. I don't want Labour people avoiding voters' eyes on the doorstep on this subject.

"I have seen people's wages undercut and agency staff brought in to do shifts. I have spoken out about someone I met on the doorstep in West Leigh who said he was the only person on his shift who spoke English. People talk about pressures on primary schools."

'Go after UKIP'

But Ed Miliband shifted Labour's policy - he emphasised he would tackle exploitation and advocated a two-year wait for benefits for EU migrants. So I explored whether Andy Burnham was offering merely a change in tone, or in substance.

"I am pro-European and believe in free movement of labour.

"But what I have pressed with the European Parliament President (German social democrat) Martin Schulz is that there are EU structural funds which haven't been drawn down - why can't that money be designated as a migration fund?

"Communities most affected would apply for this and get help for, say, extra primary school teachers or extra GPs. Europe has to understand some communities - especially the poorest - are changed by migration"

And he promises to "go after UKIP" on the issue and "be in as many pubs as Nigel Farage".

But were those who had turned out on an unseasonably wet, cold August night to attend Andy Burnham's London rally about to raise a glass to his leadership ambitions?

With all the talk of potential splits, it was perhaps encouraging that the first person I spoke to in the audience was called Unity. Yes, she really was.

"I always liked Andy Burnham. I have had my eye on him for a long time."

Her companion, Annabel, too was pretty positive: "I like the talk of another Beveridge government. I think he doesn't scare the horses."

Sober reflection

Hazel, on the other hand, wasn't sure whether to opt for Yvette Cooper instead. She did find Jeremy Corbyn "wonderful and energising" but "No, no I remember the eighties".

Rienzi said he was also old enough to remember the divisions of that decade too: "I saw what ultra-left wing politics did to the party. Labour will never get in if it goes back to that."

So he wasn't backing Jeremy Corbyn but wanted to see "if Andy Burnham is up to it." And he defended the Leigh MP for not attacking Corbyn: "It might go negative on him."

But for Josh "it's between Andy and Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy might have a problem winning over dyed-in -the-wool Tories and we could struggle on 2020".

Young voters Anna and Serena were yet to cast their ballots.

Serena said it was important to "hear things from the horse's mouth - so far there has been a lack of clarity".

She had seen Yvette Cooper and Jeremy Corbyn and the latter - even if he was "unrealistic" was at least clear.

Anna said Corbyn's inclusion in the contest "had made me more engaged but I am unlikely to vote for him. Now it's up to us to look at the policies and decide who should lead the party".

Andy Burnham will be hoping that sober reflection - rather than anti-austerity enthusiasm for Jeremy Corbyn - will allow him to snatch victory.

It's been a long haul. Indeed, he tells his church audience that the campaign "has gone on so long I can just about remember when I was the frontrunner".

He gave an impassioned performance - now he'll be hoping he can make a second coming.