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MPs debating 'English votes' plans Chris Grayling: English vote plan objections 'nonsense'
(about 3 hours later)
A row has erupted over plans to bring in "English votes for English laws", as MPs debate the proposals. Commons leader Chris Grayling has dismissed all objections to the government's "English votes for English laws" plan as "nonsense".
MPs from English seats will get an effective veto on bills that apply to England only under the plans. In a hot-tempered debate, Mr Grayling set out a "fair, sensible" plan that he said would solve an age-old problem.
Ministers say their "fair and balanced" proposals will "give the English more say over their own destiny". MPs from English seats will get an effective veto on bills that apply to England under the plans.
But Labour and the SNP oppose the plans. The SNP said they "simply exacerbate the further alienation of Scotland from the UK Parliament". But the SNP's Pete Wishart said the "stupid" plans would make Scottish MPs "second class citizens".
Labour said they risked creating "two tiers" of MPs at Westminster. He said: "Scotland is watching this and the mood is darkening. If this is an exercise in saving the Union you could not have contrived of a more inept way to save the Union.
The issue of Scottish MPs voting on English-only laws has intensified with more powers being devolved to the Scottish Parliament after last year's independence referendum. "Support for independence is actually increasing."
'Entirely comfortable'
The issue of Scottish MPs voting on English-only laws - known as the West Lothian Question - has intensified with more powers being devolved to the Scottish Parliament after last year's independence referendum.
Ministers say their solution will address the long-standing anomaly - known as the West Lothian Question - by which Scottish MPs can vote on issues such as health and education affecting only England - or England and Wales - but the House of Commons has no say on similar matters relating to Scotland, where such policies are devolved.Ministers say their solution will address the long-standing anomaly - known as the West Lothian Question - by which Scottish MPs can vote on issues such as health and education affecting only England - or England and Wales - but the House of Commons has no say on similar matters relating to Scotland, where such policies are devolved.
Under the reforms, an additional parliamentary stage, called a grand committee, would allow English, or English and Welsh, MPs to scrutinise bills without the involvement of Scottish MPs.Under the reforms, an additional parliamentary stage, called a grand committee, would allow English, or English and Welsh, MPs to scrutinise bills without the involvement of Scottish MPs.
'Politicising Speaker'
These MPs would also be able to veto the legislation before all MPs from across the United Kingdom voted in the bill's final readings.These MPs would also be able to veto the legislation before all MPs from across the United Kingdom voted in the bill's final readings.
It would be for the Speaker to decide which bills, or parts of bills, applied just in England, or England and Wales. Mr Grayling told MPs: "These proposed changes enable us to give an answer to the West Lothian question, they enable us to give an answer to our constituents, to say England will have its own piece of our devolution settlement."
He rejected as "nonsense" claims that it would create "two classes of MPs" adding that the measures were "fair, sensible and I'm entirely comfortable as a unionist presenting them to this House".
He added: "It can't be in anyone's interest to see English people becoming cynical about the union... it isn't tenable to have devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and for England to have no powers at all."
He accused Labour of trying to wreck the measures, saying amendments the party has tabled are "toothless and meaningless".
But his Labour shadow Chris Bryant said Mr Grayling's proposals were so complicated that they resembled a "bowl of soggy, overcooked spaghetti" and claimed they would hasten the break up of the United Kingdom.
Labour backs "an English voice in Parliament" but does not want "an English veto," which would set England against Scotland.
DUP leader Nigel Dodds said: "The proposals neither deal with the problem they diagnose" and threatens the "fabric of our union".
Senior Conservative MP John Redwood, who backs the creation of an English Parliament, said he would be backing the "very mild and moderate" proposals which would "start to put right some of the injustice to England".
He said English MPs had "always been at the bottom of the heap" and that it was wrong that Scottish MPs could vote on matters in his constituency, such as hospitals and schools, but that he didn't have the right to vote on these matters in Scotland.
Why it matters
When Scotland voted last year to remain part of the UK, David Cameron promised significantly increased powers for the Scottish Parliament, including the ability to set some tax and benefit levels.
At the same time, he promised English MPs they would get more power too - they would be able to legislate in areas such as health and education without any input from MPs representing Scottish seats.
Getting the balance of power between the different legislative bodies right is seen as important to the future of the UK.
If the Westminster Parliament is going to have any authority, voters from all parts of the country must feel they are being fairly represented.
English votes for English laws: A beginners' guide
Under the proposals, it would be for the Speaker to decide which bills, or parts of bills, applied just in England, or England and Wales, leading to claims from the SNP and other critics that he would be "politicised".
Ministers had to amend their plans - first unveiled in July - after criticism from opposition MPs, including over the time allowed for scrutiny, and a vote on them was delayed.Ministers had to amend their plans - first unveiled in July - after criticism from opposition MPs, including over the time allowed for scrutiny, and a vote on them was delayed.
The revised proposals, containing minor changes concerning Budget measures, will now go before the Commons.The revised proposals, containing minor changes concerning Budget measures, will now go before the Commons.
What is the row about?
There's growing disquiet about the way the current set-up works, among both the public and MPs themselves.
Despite the devolution of powers to Scotland in the late 1990s, Scottish MPs at Westminster can still vote on issues affecting England only, such as its health and education policies. English MPs have no such power over Scotland.
English votes for English laws: What's going on?
Ministers say the new system will be reviewed after 12 months.Ministers say the new system will be reviewed after 12 months.
Commons Leader Chris Grayling said: "We are determined to strengthen the union - we are devolving more powers across the United Kingdom, and now is the time to give the English more say over their own destiny."
He said the proposals provided "a fair balance" between English and UK-wide interests.
And he insisted that the proposals would not put the Speaker under too much political pressure and lead to confusion.
"It's not complicated at all, this is something that would have happened anyway with money bills, with amendments, whether to grant an urgent question or not," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"The Speakers job, is to look at what's laid in front of him and say should be we do that, or should we not do that."
But SNP MP Pete Wishart called the proposals "an unworkable dog's breakfast" that had no support from any party in the Commons.
He added: "They will make Scottish MPs second class in the unitary UK Parliament, they will politicise the office of Speaker in forcing him to take the decision to exclude Scottish MPs from bills and they create an unnecessary new level of Parliamentary procedure in a very tight Parliamentary timetable."
He said the government should set up an English Parliament instead, telling Today the plans were an attempt to "change the unitary Parliament of the UK into a quasi English Parliament".
Labour is expected to table amendments to the proposals as well as voting against them.
Shadow Commons leader Chris Bryant said Labour backed "an English voice in Parliament" but did not want "an English veto".
The plans as they stand would "create two tiers of MPs which will threaten the union and set England against Scotland", he added.
On Monday, a committee of MPs said the reforms should be piloted on a limited number of bills over the coming year.On Monday, a committee of MPs said the reforms should be piloted on a limited number of bills over the coming year.
The Commons Procedure Committee said the existing proposals risked proving "burdensome" and should be simplified.The Commons Procedure Committee said the existing proposals risked proving "burdensome" and should be simplified.