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| New QCs Justine Thornton and Marina Wheeler: Is the legal profession still sexist? | New QCs Justine Thornton and Marina Wheeler: Is the legal profession still sexist? |
| (7 months later) | |
| Of the 107 QCs who took silk this week, 25 were women. This isn’t the largest proportion of women ever to be appointed, but since the cohort is larger than usual, it is the greatest number in real terms. | Of the 107 QCs who took silk this week, 25 were women. This isn’t the largest proportion of women ever to be appointed, but since the cohort is larger than usual, it is the greatest number in real terms. |
| Within the group are Justine Thornton of 39 Essex Chambers, wife of Ed Miliband, and Marina Wheeler of One Crown Office Row, Boris Johnson’s wife. These spouse-ships are interesting not for gossipy reasons, but because the two QCs share an intense version of the challenges that, among others, have historically kept female representation at the bar so low (it’s 23% of QCs now, but hovered for a long time around 12%): they have children and husbands who are themselves quite busy, or at least, have been in the recent past. And so to the elemental question: is the law a sexist profession? | Within the group are Justine Thornton of 39 Essex Chambers, wife of Ed Miliband, and Marina Wheeler of One Crown Office Row, Boris Johnson’s wife. These spouse-ships are interesting not for gossipy reasons, but because the two QCs share an intense version of the challenges that, among others, have historically kept female representation at the bar so low (it’s 23% of QCs now, but hovered for a long time around 12%): they have children and husbands who are themselves quite busy, or at least, have been in the recent past. And so to the elemental question: is the law a sexist profession? |
| Marina Wheeler: When I started, there were many fewer females and there were perhaps people who understood less well how you’re supposed to behave. Whether or not people still have the same instincts and older men want to come on to younger women, people know now that that isn’t the way to behave, and while it’s not been eradicated, there’s a lot less of it. I think that is in part due to decades of work by the bar council. We are lawyers, after all. Some of us are mildly more anarchic than others, but basically we share a set of attitudes. Whereas when you think of finance, there’s a premium on the more outlandish or risk-taking personality. I think the way we are does make us slightly easier to manage. | Marina Wheeler: When I started, there were many fewer females and there were perhaps people who understood less well how you’re supposed to behave. Whether or not people still have the same instincts and older men want to come on to younger women, people know now that that isn’t the way to behave, and while it’s not been eradicated, there’s a lot less of it. I think that is in part due to decades of work by the bar council. We are lawyers, after all. Some of us are mildly more anarchic than others, but basically we share a set of attitudes. Whereas when you think of finance, there’s a premium on the more outlandish or risk-taking personality. I think the way we are does make us slightly easier to manage. |
| Being somewhere where there are other women makes a difference when this job rests so much on confidence and self-belief | Being somewhere where there are other women makes a difference when this job rests so much on confidence and self-belief |
| Justine Thornton: Also – this is something the Americans struggle to understand – we have an overriding duty to the court, not to our clients. There are standards and rules, we are a profession. | Justine Thornton: Also – this is something the Americans struggle to understand – we have an overriding duty to the court, not to our clients. There are standards and rules, we are a profession. |
| Wheeler: In a really concrete way, one of the competencies you have to prove in your silk application is a commitment to diversity. White males often suggest that’s the hurdle they fell down on. | Wheeler: In a really concrete way, one of the competencies you have to prove in your silk application is a commitment to diversity. White males often suggest that’s the hurdle they fell down on. |
| Thornton: And that is one of five competencies – it’s as important as oral and written advocacy. The figures now are 50:50 for women and men being called to the bar. That blatant, horrid, overt sexual discrimination has probably gone. But then the statistics show that most women – a disproportionate number of women – leave when they have kids. So that’s the modern challenge. | Thornton: And that is one of five competencies – it’s as important as oral and written advocacy. The figures now are 50:50 for women and men being called to the bar. That blatant, horrid, overt sexual discrimination has probably gone. But then the statistics show that most women – a disproportionate number of women – leave when they have kids. So that’s the modern challenge. |
| Wheeler: I don’t think there were any female silks in my last chambers. Being somewhere where there are makes a difference, when this job rests so much on confidence and self-belief. | Wheeler: I don’t think there were any female silks in my last chambers. Being somewhere where there are makes a difference, when this job rests so much on confidence and self-belief. |
| Thornton: I started off in a family chambers, then left and went to a City law firm. I was advised to come back to the bar because it’s family-friendly. You’re self-employed, unlike in a firm, where you have billing targets. I can take off school holidays if I want to. | Thornton: I started off in a family chambers, then left and went to a City law firm. I was advised to come back to the bar because it’s family-friendly. You’re self-employed, unlike in a firm, where you have billing targets. I can take off school holidays if I want to. |
| Wheeler: The flexible working is a good thing. The focus is very much on your skills. If you’re smart and work hard, you can flourish, because it’s about how you do in court and the quality of your advice. So you’re cutting out all sorts of other things that maybe matter in other professions. It doesn’t matter what you look like when you wear a gown and a wig. | Wheeler: The flexible working is a good thing. The focus is very much on your skills. If you’re smart and work hard, you can flourish, because it’s about how you do in court and the quality of your advice. So you’re cutting out all sorts of other things that maybe matter in other professions. It doesn’t matter what you look like when you wear a gown and a wig. |
| Thornton: I remember, as a 23-year-old barrister, putting on that wig definitely lessened the disparity of being opposite a 55-year-old guy in a pin-striped suit. Yet at the end of the day, you are running your own business, on your own. You can have supportive colleagues, but if you have a terrible day in court, you’ve got to piece yourself back together and carry on. That is tough. And also, the uncertainty of it, if you don’t work, you don’t earn … and if you’re working on a no-win, no-fee basis, then the verdict matters a lot. I did one four-month trial, working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. If you’re in court, and you’re cross-examining an expert with simultaneous translation, you can’t say, “Sorry, I need to pick the kids up.” There is zero flexibility there. That’s the stress. | Thornton: I remember, as a 23-year-old barrister, putting on that wig definitely lessened the disparity of being opposite a 55-year-old guy in a pin-striped suit. Yet at the end of the day, you are running your own business, on your own. You can have supportive colleagues, but if you have a terrible day in court, you’ve got to piece yourself back together and carry on. That is tough. And also, the uncertainty of it, if you don’t work, you don’t earn … and if you’re working on a no-win, no-fee basis, then the verdict matters a lot. I did one four-month trial, working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. If you’re in court, and you’re cross-examining an expert with simultaneous translation, you can’t say, “Sorry, I need to pick the kids up.” There is zero flexibility there. That’s the stress. |
| Wheeler: I’ve had really difficult working hours, but not all the time. An all-nighter definitely doesn’t happen very often. Dinah Rose [who became a QC in 2006] would say: “It’s impossible to do the job without a full-time husband.” Maybe you don’t need one of those, but you need solid childcare, and people get that in different ways. It was never a question for me – shall I, shan’t I? – I was always going to have children. I took three months’ off for the first two – and that amazes me now I think about it, it isn’t very much at all. Lots of our women now take a year, which I think is possibly a mixed blessing, given the nature of the job and how quickly confidence can erode. You think your clerks are beginning to slightly write you off, or your commitment is being questioned. And, of course, these are jobs in which you need to be quite hyped up. Practically, the law changes so quickly. | Wheeler: I’ve had really difficult working hours, but not all the time. An all-nighter definitely doesn’t happen very often. Dinah Rose [who became a QC in 2006] would say: “It’s impossible to do the job without a full-time husband.” Maybe you don’t need one of those, but you need solid childcare, and people get that in different ways. It was never a question for me – shall I, shan’t I? – I was always going to have children. I took three months’ off for the first two – and that amazes me now I think about it, it isn’t very much at all. Lots of our women now take a year, which I think is possibly a mixed blessing, given the nature of the job and how quickly confidence can erode. You think your clerks are beginning to slightly write you off, or your commitment is being questioned. And, of course, these are jobs in which you need to be quite hyped up. Practically, the law changes so quickly. |
| Thornton: My experience is more positive than that. I had my first child only six years ago. Every single woman before me who had kids in my chambers went back to work. I thought: “If they can do it, I can.” But each time I had maternity leave, I did have to build up again. | Thornton: My experience is more positive than that. I had my first child only six years ago. Every single woman before me who had kids in my chambers went back to work. I thought: “If they can do it, I can.” But each time I had maternity leave, I did have to build up again. |
| Wheeler: Resilience, dusting yourself down – these are exactly the qualities you need, particularly when you’re surrounded by other men and women who’ve perhaps not had children, who are zipping by you. To be able to live with that, and think: “I can’t do that, I choose something a bit more zen.” I have definitely been on the long path to silk. There’s a 15-year sprint, but that’s not how I did it. | Wheeler: Resilience, dusting yourself down – these are exactly the qualities you need, particularly when you’re surrounded by other men and women who’ve perhaps not had children, who are zipping by you. To be able to live with that, and think: “I can’t do that, I choose something a bit more zen.” I have definitely been on the long path to silk. There’s a 15-year sprint, but that’s not how I did it. |
| Mentoring makes a difference. I only applied for silk because a colleague kept on at me – she wouldn’t let me not apply | Mentoring makes a difference. I only applied for silk because a colleague kept on at me – she wouldn’t let me not apply |
| Thornton: When they print the list for the ceremony, the day is in order of seniority … | Thornton: When they print the list for the ceremony, the day is in order of seniority … |
| Wheeler: … I was thinking: “Please don’t let me be on the top.” | Wheeler: … I was thinking: “Please don’t let me be on the top.” |
| Thornton: A disproportionate number of women leave the bar at around childbearing age. There’s a very depressing report saying we will never achieve equality at the bar. And then you have to ask: “How do we deal with this?” Mentoring makes a difference. I only applied for silk because a colleague just kept on at me – she literally wouldn’t let me not do it. | Thornton: A disproportionate number of women leave the bar at around childbearing age. There’s a very depressing report saying we will never achieve equality at the bar. And then you have to ask: “How do we deal with this?” Mentoring makes a difference. I only applied for silk because a colleague just kept on at me – she literally wouldn’t let me not do it. |
| Wheeler: The other element of this, and what’s so hard for women once they have children, is that maybe when you have kids you don’t feel the same ambitions. Women have got this far and their expectations of themselves as younger women were that they were going to rise to the top, in inverted commas. But you don’t want to undervalue the caring role, and you want women to feel that they’re making real choices. | Wheeler: The other element of this, and what’s so hard for women once they have children, is that maybe when you have kids you don’t feel the same ambitions. Women have got this far and their expectations of themselves as younger women were that they were going to rise to the top, in inverted commas. But you don’t want to undervalue the caring role, and you want women to feel that they’re making real choices. |
| Thornton: I do feel we have to do our bit. We can’t leave the system with any excuses, able to say: “Women didn’t apply.” I feel a responsibility – I’ve got to carry on applying, carry on doing, and the system will open its arms a bit as well. It’s got to be the case that the quality of the law made by our judges will be better if it’s made by a more diverse body of people. The supreme court reserves a space for judges with knowledge of Scottish law and Northern Irish law because it wants to represent the entire United Kingdom. Once you know that, it doesn’t feel logically like a big leap to have quotas for women. But politically, it does feel like a big leap. My view is that I would hope we don’t need to go there. | Thornton: I do feel we have to do our bit. We can’t leave the system with any excuses, able to say: “Women didn’t apply.” I feel a responsibility – I’ve got to carry on applying, carry on doing, and the system will open its arms a bit as well. It’s got to be the case that the quality of the law made by our judges will be better if it’s made by a more diverse body of people. The supreme court reserves a space for judges with knowledge of Scottish law and Northern Irish law because it wants to represent the entire United Kingdom. Once you know that, it doesn’t feel logically like a big leap to have quotas for women. But politically, it does feel like a big leap. My view is that I would hope we don’t need to go there. |
| Wheeler: The bit where I slightly disagree is the question of whether we need to reach 50%. Not necessarily, I don’t think. I don’t think that the justice a woman dispenses is different to that dispensed by a man. | Wheeler: The bit where I slightly disagree is the question of whether we need to reach 50%. Not necessarily, I don’t think. I don’t think that the justice a woman dispenses is different to that dispensed by a man. |
| Thornton: Baroness Hale [supreme court vice-president] gave a lecture recently in which she referred to her view that being a woman had changed her judgments: for example, when considering the damage that can be done to a woman by an unwanted pregnancy, or whether domestic violence should just mean hitting or extend to psychological damage. | Thornton: Baroness Hale [supreme court vice-president] gave a lecture recently in which she referred to her view that being a woman had changed her judgments: for example, when considering the damage that can be done to a woman by an unwanted pregnancy, or whether domestic violence should just mean hitting or extend to psychological damage. |
| Wheeler: I’m not in favour of quotas. I think it is undermining, particularly in such a competitive environment. I think we are moving in a good direction. We’ve just had our first high court judge from this chambers, from an increasing pool of silks. I think it’s really snowballing. | Wheeler: I’m not in favour of quotas. I think it is undermining, particularly in such a competitive environment. I think we are moving in a good direction. We’ve just had our first high court judge from this chambers, from an increasing pool of silks. I think it’s really snowballing. |
| Thornton: Probably the question that we’re debating is the speed of change. The bar council says that by 2100 we are still not going to be 50:50. But look, I agree with Marina, things do feel like they’re changing. It’s probably not fast enough, but it feels like a good time to be a woman at the bar. If you can get through bigger structural issues – how it works at home, how it’s all paid for – it feels pretty meritocratic, the bar and the judiciary. My parents are picking my children up today. I had a nanny when they were younger, and then huge amounts of grandparental support, which continues. | Thornton: Probably the question that we’re debating is the speed of change. The bar council says that by 2100 we are still not going to be 50:50. But look, I agree with Marina, things do feel like they’re changing. It’s probably not fast enough, but it feels like a good time to be a woman at the bar. If you can get through bigger structural issues – how it works at home, how it’s all paid for – it feels pretty meritocratic, the bar and the judiciary. My parents are picking my children up today. I had a nanny when they were younger, and then huge amounts of grandparental support, which continues. |
| Wheeler: We had long-term, solid support from a particular nanny, Nicola, who was with us all the time, who has been so fundamental to my career, and she’s still a part of our lives, and of our kids’ lives, too. I don’t think you could do it by taking your child every day to nursery. The bar council now does have a creche. But I think in truth it’s really for emergencies. It would be too much – you’d die of stress. | Wheeler: We had long-term, solid support from a particular nanny, Nicola, who was with us all the time, who has been so fundamental to my career, and she’s still a part of our lives, and of our kids’ lives, too. I don’t think you could do it by taking your child every day to nursery. The bar council now does have a creche. But I think in truth it’s really for emergencies. It would be too much – you’d die of stress. |
| Thornton: That also depends which part of the bar you’re in. If you’re in the publicly funded bar, you may not be able to afford the childcare you need. And it’s so difficult to get pupillage nowadays, you don’t really have the luxury of choosing your chambers. | Thornton: That also depends which part of the bar you’re in. If you’re in the publicly funded bar, you may not be able to afford the childcare you need. And it’s so difficult to get pupillage nowadays, you don’t really have the luxury of choosing your chambers. |
| Wheeler: I know I’m temperamentally quite optimistic, but just as an example of how things have changed: at the chambers I was at before, with child No 2, although I tried to shut up about children, I did once take him into chambers, and somebody said: “I thought we came to work to get away from all that.” Now, whenever anybody has a child, male or female, you have emails circulating with pictures of the baby, and I’ve seen a senior clerk, who you wouldn’t necessarily think was the most right-on chap, expressing real delight. Men will make a big point of leaving on time to get home for bathtime: 5.30pm, bye-bye. I did quite a stressy national security case with a colleague of Justine’s, actually, and we needed something on a secure memory stick. He said he couldn’t give it to us until 10am because he always took his kid to school on a Tuesday. We hadn’t necessarily told him that this was a seriously life-and-death situation. We were both sitting there feeling so stressed at the fact that we weren’t going to get this thing until 10am, then we were going to have to rush to consult the client, and we couldn’t hassle him because we had to be respectful of his choice. It was kind of ironic. But in a good way. | Wheeler: I know I’m temperamentally quite optimistic, but just as an example of how things have changed: at the chambers I was at before, with child No 2, although I tried to shut up about children, I did once take him into chambers, and somebody said: “I thought we came to work to get away from all that.” Now, whenever anybody has a child, male or female, you have emails circulating with pictures of the baby, and I’ve seen a senior clerk, who you wouldn’t necessarily think was the most right-on chap, expressing real delight. Men will make a big point of leaving on time to get home for bathtime: 5.30pm, bye-bye. I did quite a stressy national security case with a colleague of Justine’s, actually, and we needed something on a secure memory stick. He said he couldn’t give it to us until 10am because he always took his kid to school on a Tuesday. We hadn’t necessarily told him that this was a seriously life-and-death situation. We were both sitting there feeling so stressed at the fact that we weren’t going to get this thing until 10am, then we were going to have to rush to consult the client, and we couldn’t hassle him because we had to be respectful of his choice. It was kind of ironic. But in a good way. |
| Thornton: Male lawyers will say, quite openly, that they don’t want to be part of a long-hours culture either. I was at a conference on women in the law, and it struck me that, actually, the role models will be 20 years younger than me. These young women were confidently expecting that they and their partners would share childcare, would take career breaks at different times. | Thornton: Male lawyers will say, quite openly, that they don’t want to be part of a long-hours culture either. I was at a conference on women in the law, and it struck me that, actually, the role models will be 20 years younger than me. These young women were confidently expecting that they and their partners would share childcare, would take career breaks at different times. |
| Wheeler: It is a tricky one, between generations: how useful is it for younger women to be alerted to the difficulties? Is it better to pretend that it’s really easy? | Wheeler: It is a tricky one, between generations: how useful is it for younger women to be alerted to the difficulties? Is it better to pretend that it’s really easy? |
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