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| Why Knot? A spirited panel discussion on marriage equality – as it happened | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 11.00am BST | |
| 11:00 | |
| Michael Safi | |
| That wraps up our coverage of tonight’s event, we so appreciate you reading commenting and tweeting along. My colleague Paul Karp will have a full report up shortly. | |
| 10.55am BST | |
| 10:55 | |
| The next practical steps? | |
| Elle Hunt | |
| As the event reaches its end, David Marr asks what comes next for the campaign for marriage equality in Australia. Forcing a recalled federal parliament to vote on the issue next month? | |
| “I think that’s a possibility,” Richard di Natale says. And if that fails, “the key thing is to make sure that the movement is united that we come together ... to campaign together, to learn the lessons from the Irish campaigns ... to ensure that this is a team effort to get this over the line should a plebiscite occur”. | |
| Kristina Keneally agrees with Di Natale. “I think the practical step each one of us can do is give ourselves a task – do something.” She suggests the most straightforward one is writing to your MP or senator. | |
| Ali, the 16-year-old, points out she’s “not in politics”. “I just think marriage equality should be legalised immediately because if it isn’t so many politicians are going to be embarrassed when my generation reaches voting age in two years.” | |
| Bill Shorten is brief: “Just change the government.” | |
| Ben Davison reiterates Rodney Croome’s point on the power of personal stories in passing marriage equality: “We need to tell them about why equality is important.” He echoes Shorten’s call to change the government: “Just throw them out.” | |
| Van Badham urges supporters to “stay mobilised”, especially if it comes to a plebiscite. “We stay vigilant, we stay politically engaged. But I’ve got to say, my god, the satisfaction, to watch a Tory government lose because of the issue of marriage equality would just ... say if you can’t represent all Australians, you cannot represent any Australians.” | |
| Benjamin Law suggests supporters of marriage equality use our “assets”. “We’re really organised, especially the women. We’re really good at rallying. We’re really good at emotional manipulation. ... Tell the worst sad stories of your life and get them onboard and get them with us.” | |
| Rodney Croome says there is “every possibility” that enough Liberals will cross the floor to vote for marriage equality so that it goes through the Senate, sending a positive message against holding a plebiscite. Australian Marriage Equality “will be doing all we can”, says Croome, to inform people on candidates’ stances on marriage equality in the lead-up to the election and why it’s important to keep that in mind when it comes to the ballot box. | |
| His final point: “Talk, talk, talk about why this is important to you to those who are yet unconvinced.” | |
| In closing, David makes one important point: “We did attempt to have a representative of the Coalition government on the panel tonight and that did not prove possible.” | |
| 10.47am BST | |
| 10:47 | |
| Would Labor repeal any religious exemptions in the Marriage Act? "Yes and yes" | |
| Bill Shorten has just said unequivocally that, should a Liberal government introduce exemptions for businesses, allowing them to refuse to provide services for gay weddings, Labor would repeal them. | |
| 10.37am BST | 10.37am BST |
| 10:37 | 10:37 |
| Conscience or binding vote? | Conscience or binding vote? |
| To the question below, Kristina Keneally adds she would be “disappointed” if it took a binding vote for marriage equality to become reality. | To the question below, Kristina Keneally adds she would be “disappointed” if it took a binding vote for marriage equality to become reality. |
| Forcing people to vote in a certain way is not going to deliver equality … it’s not going to endorse a real change in the community. | Forcing people to vote in a certain way is not going to deliver equality … it’s not going to endorse a real change in the community. |
| I can say from sitting through several conscience votes in the NSW parliament ... I have seen MPs who start here and end up here, supporting the legislation, because they’ve gone through a process of forming their conscience, because they’ve engaged with the issue, talked to their electorate, thought through the consequences. | I can say from sitting through several conscience votes in the NSW parliament ... I have seen MPs who start here and end up here, supporting the legislation, because they’ve gone through a process of forming their conscience, because they’ve engaged with the issue, talked to their electorate, thought through the consequences. |
| Richard di Natale disagrees. “The parliament is an profoundly unrepresentative institution ... It’s full of old white men,” he says. | Richard di Natale disagrees. “The parliament is an profoundly unrepresentative institution ... It’s full of old white men,” he says. |
| “I just want to get this thing done, because once it’s done and cemented it’s the community that will have dragged us in parliament over the line.” | “I just want to get this thing done, because once it’s done and cemented it’s the community that will have dragged us in parliament over the line.” |
| He says the about face by many parliamentarians in support of marriage equality hasn’t come about by a change in conscience but because of political opportunism. “They recognise that in their electorates, their job depends on them supporting this issues,” Di Natale says. | He says the about face by many parliamentarians in support of marriage equality hasn’t come about by a change in conscience but because of political opportunism. “They recognise that in their electorates, their job depends on them supporting this issues,” Di Natale says. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.44am BST | at 10.44am BST |
| 10.35am BST | 10.35am BST |
| 10:35 | 10:35 |
| We’re into Q+A now. Among the questions: Who does the ALP not bind its vote on this issue? | We’re into Q+A now. Among the questions: Who does the ALP not bind its vote on this issue? |
| Bill Shorten says the ALP has agreed to make this a binding question on its MPs after the 2016 election. | Bill Shorten says the ALP has agreed to make this a binding question on its MPs after the 2016 election. |
| The issue is, take the House of Representatives at the moment. There’s one Green, five cross-benchers and 55 ALP members, and that adds up to 61. That means of 150, the vast bulk of votes are Liberal. | The issue is, take the House of Representatives at the moment. There’s one Green, five cross-benchers and 55 ALP members, and that adds up to 61. That means of 150, the vast bulk of votes are Liberal. |
| I know how all the Labor MPs are going to vote. I dont think there’s a single Labor MP in the House of Representatives who will vote against marriage equality ... What we need is the Liberal party to allow a conscience vote. | I know how all the Labor MPs are going to vote. I dont think there’s a single Labor MP in the House of Representatives who will vote against marriage equality ... What we need is the Liberal party to allow a conscience vote. |
| Ultimately, he adds, “if you have want to have marriage equality you need to change the government”. | Ultimately, he adds, “if you have want to have marriage equality you need to change the government”. |
| 10.24am BST | 10.24am BST |
| 10:24 | 10:24 |
| David Marr raises the spectre of an issue that’s surrounded marriage equality in the United States: the right of wedding celebrants or pastry chefs not to provide services for gay marriages. | David Marr raises the spectre of an issue that’s surrounded marriage equality in the United States: the right of wedding celebrants or pastry chefs not to provide services for gay marriages. |
| He asks Ben Davison, an official with the Australian Council for Trade Unions: | He asks Ben Davison, an official with the Australian Council for Trade Unions: |
| David Marr: will the actu go in to bat for pastry cooks who refuse to make cakes for a couple of poofters? #GuardianLive | David Marr: will the actu go in to bat for pastry cooks who refuse to make cakes for a couple of poofters? #GuardianLive |
| Davison notes that Dave Oliver, the union’s national secretary, has already come out in support of equal marriage. And in any case, pastry chefs in 2016 need to take all the jobs they can get. | Davison notes that Dave Oliver, the union’s national secretary, has already come out in support of equal marriage. And in any case, pastry chefs in 2016 need to take all the jobs they can get. |
| 10.22am BST | 10.22am BST |
| 10:22 | 10:22 |
| Van Badham says she doesn’t understand any arguments against marriage equality – and that the Guardian Live audience here tonight probably doesn’t, either. | Van Badham says she doesn’t understand any arguments against marriage equality – and that the Guardian Live audience here tonight probably doesn’t, either. |
| Opponents like George Christensen, she says, are “fighting like rats” to preserve a world that doesn’t exist anymore. And she points out that a lot of political opposition against marriage equality says it’s doing so in the interests of children – and politicising children, she says, is not only desperate, it’s “disgusting”. | Opponents like George Christensen, she says, are “fighting like rats” to preserve a world that doesn’t exist anymore. And she points out that a lot of political opposition against marriage equality says it’s doing so in the interests of children – and politicising children, she says, is not only desperate, it’s “disgusting”. |
| #GuardianLive Marriage Equality debate David Marr, Rodney Croome and the panel @safimichael @GuardianAus pic.twitter.com/qy0yZfxK42 | #GuardianLive Marriage Equality debate David Marr, Rodney Croome and the panel @safimichael @GuardianAus pic.twitter.com/qy0yZfxK42 |
| 10.18am BST | 10.18am BST |
| 10:18 | 10:18 |
| Kristina Keneally: “The decline in the moral authority of the church is significant.” | Kristina Keneally: “The decline in the moral authority of the church is significant.” |
| Kristina Keneally says she doesn’t think a plebiscite is necessary to pass marriage equality, but that the debate in Australia may come to it. | Kristina Keneally says she doesn’t think a plebiscite is necessary to pass marriage equality, but that the debate in Australia may come to it. |
| She believes opposition is strong among conservative political wings in Australia – either because they genuinely are against marriage equality, or because of internal politics – or because it goes against their religious beliefs. | She believes opposition is strong among conservative political wings in Australia – either because they genuinely are against marriage equality, or because of internal politics – or because it goes against their religious beliefs. |
| There is strong majority support among Christians and Catholics, interjects David Marr, and “not quite as strong” among Protestants. Keneally says the vote in Ireland and the child sexual abuse crisis has helped to progress support for marriage equality: “The decline in the moral authority of the church is significant.” | There is strong majority support among Christians and Catholics, interjects David Marr, and “not quite as strong” among Protestants. Keneally says the vote in Ireland and the child sexual abuse crisis has helped to progress support for marriage equality: “The decline in the moral authority of the church is significant.” |
| 10.16am BST | 10.16am BST |
| 10:16 | 10:16 |
| David Marr asks Bill Shorten whether there’s anybody in parliament “who honestly thinks this is not going to happen”. | David Marr asks Bill Shorten whether there’s anybody in parliament “who honestly thinks this is not going to happen”. |
| “Most MPs accept it, if you polled them they would say yes, it’s going to happen,” Shorten says. | “Most MPs accept it, if you polled them they would say yes, it’s going to happen,” Shorten says. |
| “That’s why I’m at a loss to understand what we don’t just get on with it.” | “That’s why I’m at a loss to understand what we don’t just get on with it.” |
| Richard di Natale says there are a rump of senators and MPs who will “fight this to the bitter end, and our job is to make sure they remain marginal voices in the political debate, and to bring the nation with us”. | Richard di Natale says there are a rump of senators and MPs who will “fight this to the bitter end, and our job is to make sure they remain marginal voices in the political debate, and to bring the nation with us”. |
| Rodney Croome tries to put his head inside the opposition’s. | Rodney Croome tries to put his head inside the opposition’s. |
| They genuinely believe ... Australia will be the place they will be able to turn back the tide of immorality. | They genuinely believe ... Australia will be the place they will be able to turn back the tide of immorality. |
| I know that sounds like a big call but that’s the only way I can really explain how much emotional energy and how much investment they have in the issue. | I know that sounds like a big call but that’s the only way I can really explain how much emotional energy and how much investment they have in the issue. |
| What a panel for this topic! Honestly. #GuardianLive #MarriageEquality pic.twitter.com/YbM8lnNcpd | What a panel for this topic! Honestly. #GuardianLive #MarriageEquality pic.twitter.com/YbM8lnNcpd |
| 10.03am BST | 10.03am BST |
| 10:03 | 10:03 |
| Rodney Croome says he recently celebrated his 10-year anniversary with his partner, Raf. At the gathering he overheard his mother tell his aunt, of Raf: “I think of him as my son in law.” | Rodney Croome says he recently celebrated his 10-year anniversary with his partner, Raf. At the gathering he overheard his mother tell his aunt, of Raf: “I think of him as my son in law.” |
| And that short sentence sums up so much about why we come to be talking about marriage equality in Australia today. That short sentence from an 80-year-old mother in Devonport, a former dairy farmer … those small words say so much: that same sex partners are not just tolerated but treated as if we are marriage partners. | And that short sentence sums up so much about why we come to be talking about marriage equality in Australia today. That short sentence from an 80-year-old mother in Devonport, a former dairy farmer … those small words say so much: that same sex partners are not just tolerated but treated as if we are marriage partners. |
| I want her to be able to say, not I think of Raf as my son-in-law, I want her at some stage, sooner rather than later, to be able to say he is my son-in-law. | I want her to be able to say, not I think of Raf as my son-in-law, I want her at some stage, sooner rather than later, to be able to say he is my son-in-law. |
| "Australians think of marriage in terms of love & commitment" @RodneyCroome #GuardianLive #marriageequality #whyknot pic.twitter.com/iONRxGdMsG | "Australians think of marriage in terms of love & commitment" @RodneyCroome #GuardianLive #marriageequality #whyknot pic.twitter.com/iONRxGdMsG |
| The plebiscite will be divisive, and give those with prejudice the biggest megaphone they've ever had - @RodneyCroome #GuardianLive | The plebiscite will be divisive, and give those with prejudice the biggest megaphone they've ever had - @RodneyCroome #GuardianLive |
| 10.01am BST | 10.01am BST |
| 10:01 | 10:01 |
| We only touched on Richard di Natale’s introductory remarks below, but he expanded on them before tonight’s event in the video below. | We only touched on Richard di Natale’s introductory remarks below, but he expanded on them before tonight’s event in the video below. |
| To prevent people from expressing their love and commitment to each other is just prejudice. #marriagequality pic.twitter.com/UnxoK5MJ3B | To prevent people from expressing their love and commitment to each other is just prejudice. #marriagequality pic.twitter.com/UnxoK5MJ3B |