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| A girl’s guide to growing up: how does Laura Bates’ advice play out in the real world? | A girl’s guide to growing up: how does Laura Bates’ advice play out in the real world? |
| (5 months later) | |
| Ellie Olcott: I wish I could have had this book when I was 14 or 15. It would have made navigating those early sexual experiences a lot easier. Your sex education chapter started with consent, but in the sex education I received at school it was only ever about pregnancy and STIs. Consent is where sex education should start. It seemed to me that rape only happened in a dark alleyway, perpetrated by a stranger, but the way you talk about it in the book it is so clear [that rape happens in a wide range of situations]. In one of my very early sexual experiences I very much didn’t want to do it, and I think he knew that, and it still happened anyway. I was left feeling really uncomfortable and hurt, and I didn’t understand why I was feeling that way. I didn’t have the power or confidence to say no. Consent is something that isn’t really addressed at school. | Ellie Olcott: I wish I could have had this book when I was 14 or 15. It would have made navigating those early sexual experiences a lot easier. Your sex education chapter started with consent, but in the sex education I received at school it was only ever about pregnancy and STIs. Consent is where sex education should start. It seemed to me that rape only happened in a dark alleyway, perpetrated by a stranger, but the way you talk about it in the book it is so clear [that rape happens in a wide range of situations]. In one of my very early sexual experiences I very much didn’t want to do it, and I think he knew that, and it still happened anyway. I was left feeling really uncomfortable and hurt, and I didn’t understand why I was feeling that way. I didn’t have the power or confidence to say no. Consent is something that isn’t really addressed at school. |
| Laura Bates: That is definitely why I wanted to do it – going to schools and hearing things like “rape is a compliment”. And also meeting young women who had had particular experiences and said they were uncomfortable or unhappy, but wouldn’t use the word rape and were really unsure about what their rights are. This isn’t to say it’s easy just telling people what rape is – we need to tell boys too, it’s not for girls to solve. | Laura Bates: That is definitely why I wanted to do it – going to schools and hearing things like “rape is a compliment”. And also meeting young women who had had particular experiences and said they were uncomfortable or unhappy, but wouldn’t use the word rape and were really unsure about what their rights are. This isn’t to say it’s easy just telling people what rape is – we need to tell boys too, it’s not for girls to solve. |
| EO: The way people my age and younger understand what sex is, in a very unrealistic manner, is through porn. It’s completely natural for young people to be curious about sex, but the way the government is trying to ban porn or restrict access is laughable – kids are very tech-savvy and there are ways around it. It shouldn’t be about zero-tolerance towards porn, it should be about counteracting the narrative that has been given about porn. | EO: The way people my age and younger understand what sex is, in a very unrealistic manner, is through porn. It’s completely natural for young people to be curious about sex, but the way the government is trying to ban porn or restrict access is laughable – kids are very tech-savvy and there are ways around it. It shouldn’t be about zero-tolerance towards porn, it should be about counteracting the narrative that has been given about porn. |
| LB: I agree. The government’s refusal to put this on the curriculum was another reason I so desperately wanted to write this book. We’ve been campaigning and shouting about this for years, but it’s been completely blocked. Did you grow up knowing that among your peer group people were being exposed to porn? | LB: I agree. The government’s refusal to put this on the curriculum was another reason I so desperately wanted to write this book. We’ve been campaigning and shouting about this for years, but it’s been completely blocked. Did you grow up knowing that among your peer group people were being exposed to porn? |
| EO: Definitely. When we were about 13, suddenly the boys came into school and were talking about porn. From that moment on, we were expected to know about sex. My knowledge was filtered through what they were saying about sex. | EO: Definitely. When we were about 13, suddenly the boys came into school and were talking about porn. From that moment on, we were expected to know about sex. My knowledge was filtered through what they were saying about sex. |
| LB: There is also pressure on boys to conform to this extremely specific idea of how they are expected to behave. One of the project entries that really sticks with me was from a young woman of around 17. She’d had sex with her boyfriend for the first time, and out of the blue he started trying to throttle her. She panicked and pushed him away, and he broke down in tears of relief because he had thought that was the way he had to behave, and he didn’t want to either. It’s so messed up that boys are getting these messages and the government is saying sex education shouldn’t be compulsory. | LB: There is also pressure on boys to conform to this extremely specific idea of how they are expected to behave. One of the project entries that really sticks with me was from a young woman of around 17. She’d had sex with her boyfriend for the first time, and out of the blue he started trying to throttle her. She panicked and pushed him away, and he broke down in tears of relief because he had thought that was the way he had to behave, and he didn’t want to either. It’s so messed up that boys are getting these messages and the government is saying sex education shouldn’t be compulsory. |
| EO: There are lots of stories from when we were younger about girls seeing porn replicated in bed – stuff like boys ejaculating where girls weren’t wanting them to, or feeling it was just catered towards male pleasure. | EO: There are lots of stories from when we were younger about girls seeing porn replicated in bed – stuff like boys ejaculating where girls weren’t wanting them to, or feeling it was just catered towards male pleasure. |
| LB: One of the things I hear a lot from teenage girls is that because boys are watching so much porn, they feel there is huge pressure on them to do certain things; not just sex acts, but also aesthetically – worrying about whether your breasts are big enough, or having no pubic hair at all. Is that a pressure? | LB: One of the things I hear a lot from teenage girls is that because boys are watching so much porn, they feel there is huge pressure on them to do certain things; not just sex acts, but also aesthetically – worrying about whether your breasts are big enough, or having no pubic hair at all. Is that a pressure? |
| EO: Yes, definitely. I remember boys at my school laughing that a girl one of them had had sex with had “a jungle” because she had so much pubic hair. When you hear that, what are you supposed to think? That’s defined as weird or freaky. That filters through from pornography. It comes down to the fact that when we’re younger, we accept everything the way it is and we’re not asked to think critically about society. I only really got that when I came to university – to question the way I was treated as a girl, to question people’s right to shout at me on the street. | EO: Yes, definitely. I remember boys at my school laughing that a girl one of them had had sex with had “a jungle” because she had so much pubic hair. When you hear that, what are you supposed to think? That’s defined as weird or freaky. That filters through from pornography. It comes down to the fact that when we’re younger, we accept everything the way it is and we’re not asked to think critically about society. I only really got that when I came to university – to question the way I was treated as a girl, to question people’s right to shout at me on the street. |
| LB: That idea you mentioned earlier about rape only being perpetrated by a stranger in a dark alleyway – there are these myths in society. Even among girls who know about consent, there is still a hesitation to define your own experience in that way. Society gives us so much pressure to think we’re over-reacting, or were giving the wrong signals. We doubt ourselves because we’re so used to hearing victims blamed, and it’s hard to get away from internalising that. | LB: That idea you mentioned earlier about rape only being perpetrated by a stranger in a dark alleyway – there are these myths in society. Even among girls who know about consent, there is still a hesitation to define your own experience in that way. Society gives us so much pressure to think we’re over-reacting, or were giving the wrong signals. We doubt ourselves because we’re so used to hearing victims blamed, and it’s hard to get away from internalising that. |
| EO: It’s powerful to know why something is wrong, and for someone to tell you that very clearly – for instance, saying it’s illegal for images of young girls to be sent around. | EO: It’s powerful to know why something is wrong, and for someone to tell you that very clearly – for instance, saying it’s illegal for images of young girls to be sent around. |
| LB: Especially in a world where you are being told: “It’s normal, everyone’s doing it, why are you being so uptight, I won’t show it to everyone.” And as soon as you do it, you’re seen as a slag and a whore, and it’s all round the school. | LB: Especially in a world where you are being told: “It’s normal, everyone’s doing it, why are you being so uptight, I won’t show it to everyone.” And as soon as you do it, you’re seen as a slag and a whore, and it’s all round the school. |
| EO: That happened a lot at my school. | EO: That happened a lot at my school. |
| LB: I’ve never spoken to a young person who hasn’t had a personal experience of it, or seen it happen at their school. And yet so many schools want to say nothing like that happens and brush it under the carpet. It’s such a huge issue. It’s not just sexting, but also stuff like online abuse. I don’t think that adults have any idea how bad it is, how high the stakes are. And they then give young people advice that is completely useless – “If you’re experiencing online abuse, why don’t you just close down your Facebook account?” | LB: I’ve never spoken to a young person who hasn’t had a personal experience of it, or seen it happen at their school. And yet so many schools want to say nothing like that happens and brush it under the carpet. It’s such a huge issue. It’s not just sexting, but also stuff like online abuse. I don’t think that adults have any idea how bad it is, how high the stakes are. And they then give young people advice that is completely useless – “If you’re experiencing online abuse, why don’t you just close down your Facebook account?” |
| EO: I’ve written about feminism, and I just treated any online abuse I got as another incentive to write more about feminism, because it’s obviously still a problem. Don’t let it get you down, let it inspire you. But [if you’re getting abuse] on social media, of course you’re going to feel reticent about speaking about it. More generally, speaking out about anything, if it’s political, is outside the realm of what girls are supposed to talk about. That’s automatically seen as a rebellion. | EO: I’ve written about feminism, and I just treated any online abuse I got as another incentive to write more about feminism, because it’s obviously still a problem. Don’t let it get you down, let it inspire you. But [if you’re getting abuse] on social media, of course you’re going to feel reticent about speaking about it. More generally, speaking out about anything, if it’s political, is outside the realm of what girls are supposed to talk about. That’s automatically seen as a rebellion. |
| LB: For younger people, social media is where they’re talking about politics. If a young woman who tries to comment or get into the debate is told to get the fuck out, that’s literally taking away that ability for a whole generation to engage. | LB: For younger people, social media is where they’re talking about politics. If a young woman who tries to comment or get into the debate is told to get the fuck out, that’s literally taking away that ability for a whole generation to engage. |
| EO: Can older people relate to what’s going on? I think they’re becoming more aware, and the more we shout about it, the more they’ll realise it’s a problem. | EO: Can older people relate to what’s going on? I think they’re becoming more aware, and the more we shout about it, the more they’ll realise it’s a problem. |
| LB: When I talk to adults about online porn – adults who haven’t seen it themselves – sometimes I get the impression that they think it’s like a girly calendar or a Playboy centrefold. They don’t realise that in fact a lot of it is a woman being throttled or three men ejaculating on a woman’s face while she cries. When we talk about online abuse that teenage girls experience, some adults say: “Well, if they don’t like people disagreeing with them … ” But I’m talking about graphic rape threats. Many adults do want to reach out, but don’t know how. I get a lot of women coming to Everyday Sexism events who don’t know what to say to their daughters. | LB: When I talk to adults about online porn – adults who haven’t seen it themselves – sometimes I get the impression that they think it’s like a girly calendar or a Playboy centrefold. They don’t realise that in fact a lot of it is a woman being throttled or three men ejaculating on a woman’s face while she cries. When we talk about online abuse that teenage girls experience, some adults say: “Well, if they don’t like people disagreeing with them … ” But I’m talking about graphic rape threats. Many adults do want to reach out, but don’t know how. I get a lot of women coming to Everyday Sexism events who don’t know what to say to their daughters. |
| EO: The way girls are taught to think about themselves starts at a very young age – they’re given cooking toys instead of science experiments, pink dresses instead of combat gear. It shouldn’t be that parents see their kids reach 14 and think this is a problem and they need to address it. By that stage, kids might have already been taught to think of themselves as a sexual object or have body image issues. Getting girls to realign the way they think about themselves needs to start from a younger age than 14. Maybe that’s not addressed so much in your book. | EO: The way girls are taught to think about themselves starts at a very young age – they’re given cooking toys instead of science experiments, pink dresses instead of combat gear. It shouldn’t be that parents see their kids reach 14 and think this is a problem and they need to address it. By that stage, kids might have already been taught to think of themselves as a sexual object or have body image issues. Getting girls to realign the way they think about themselves needs to start from a younger age than 14. Maybe that’s not addressed so much in your book. |
| LB: Maybe I’ll write another one for younger girls. I was talking to a young woman recently who said: “We used to line up in front of the mirror when we were eight or nine and critique each other’s bodies in the way we’d seen in ‘circle of shame’ things in magazines.” And there was a 14-year-old who said to me, ‘If you don’t have a thigh gap, you need to get one,’ and then went through the ways you could do it, including diet pills. | LB: Maybe I’ll write another one for younger girls. I was talking to a young woman recently who said: “We used to line up in front of the mirror when we were eight or nine and critique each other’s bodies in the way we’d seen in ‘circle of shame’ things in magazines.” And there was a 14-year-old who said to me, ‘If you don’t have a thigh gap, you need to get one,’ and then went through the ways you could do it, including diet pills. |
| EO: I think this is where my experience separates from girls who are teenagers now. When I was 13, I had a phone that had very limited functions, and thigh gaps weren’t a thing, selfies weren’t a thing. There is an intensity to the way people are consuming social media. Your identity is quantifiable – the amount of likes you get says how popular you are. That’s something I didn’t have when I was 13. It’s getting worse. | EO: I think this is where my experience separates from girls who are teenagers now. When I was 13, I had a phone that had very limited functions, and thigh gaps weren’t a thing, selfies weren’t a thing. There is an intensity to the way people are consuming social media. Your identity is quantifiable – the amount of likes you get says how popular you are. That’s something I didn’t have when I was 13. It’s getting worse. |
| LB: I think so too, and I don’t think people know it’s getting worse. One of the things that was a big shock for me, while doing Everyday Sexism work, was the number of entries we got from girls who were under 10, and the explicit nature of what they were dealing with. The average age we hear in relation to first sexual experiences is about 11. It’s things like: “I was in my school and this boy said these things about my pussy and I didn’t know what he meant.” I’m regularly at schools where the girls say they are called “slut” or “slag” more often than their names. Or they’ll put their hands up in class and boys will shout: “Get back and make me a sandwich.” | LB: I think so too, and I don’t think people know it’s getting worse. One of the things that was a big shock for me, while doing Everyday Sexism work, was the number of entries we got from girls who were under 10, and the explicit nature of what they were dealing with. The average age we hear in relation to first sexual experiences is about 11. It’s things like: “I was in my school and this boy said these things about my pussy and I didn’t know what he meant.” I’m regularly at schools where the girls say they are called “slut” or “slag” more often than their names. Or they’ll put their hands up in class and boys will shout: “Get back and make me a sandwich.” |
| EO: I just did not talk about feminism when I was younger, or have any exposure to it. How do young girls come across your website? | EO: I just did not talk about feminism when I was younger, or have any exposure to it. How do young girls come across your website? |
| LB: It’s social media. When we talk about the real bombardment of crap that girls are dealing with, often you feel as if you’re painting a picture of girls being cowering victims. Really, the opposite is true. When you hear from 11- or 12-year-old girls, asking for us to talk at their school, or saying they’re holding a protest or have written something in the school paper, it makes you realise their strength, power and energy. There are so many girls who are really interested – they just need the tools and the revolution can start. When I went to one school I went out on stage to give a talk and the boys all started wolf-whistling. Some of the girls started a feminist society after that, and when I went back two years later the atmosphere was transformed – people were so interested and they had all these questions. Just by creating that space within the school, it really staked a claim and had made a difference. Young women are starting their own revolution. | LB: It’s social media. When we talk about the real bombardment of crap that girls are dealing with, often you feel as if you’re painting a picture of girls being cowering victims. Really, the opposite is true. When you hear from 11- or 12-year-old girls, asking for us to talk at their school, or saying they’re holding a protest or have written something in the school paper, it makes you realise their strength, power and energy. There are so many girls who are really interested – they just need the tools and the revolution can start. When I went to one school I went out on stage to give a talk and the boys all started wolf-whistling. Some of the girls started a feminist society after that, and when I went back two years later the atmosphere was transformed – people were so interested and they had all these questions. Just by creating that space within the school, it really staked a claim and had made a difference. Young women are starting their own revolution. |
| Girl Up by Laura Bates is published by Simon & Schuster on 21 April. Buy it for £10.39 at bookshop.theguardian.com | Girl Up by Laura Bates is published by Simon & Schuster on 21 April. Buy it for £10.39 at bookshop.theguardian.com |
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