This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/31/britain-will-become-a-dot-on-the-map-readers-on-the-eu-referendum
The article has changed 3 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 1 | Version 2 |
|---|---|
| 'Britain will become a dot on the map': readers on the EU referendum | 'Britain will become a dot on the map': readers on the EU referendum |
| (3 months later) | |
| From Labour party worries to political beermats, we’ve scoured the site and highlighted comments from three key debates beneath Guardian articles on the EU referendum today. You can read them here and click on the links to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and conversation as it happens. | From Labour party worries to political beermats, we’ve scoured the site and highlighted comments from three key debates beneath Guardian articles on the EU referendum today. You can read them here and click on the links to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and conversation as it happens. |
| 1. Labour voters ‘in the dark about party’s stance on Brexit’ | 1. Labour voters ‘in the dark about party’s stance on Brexit’ |
| Political correspondent Rowena Mason wrote last night about “worries in the remain camp that more needs to be done to woo traditional Labour voters who have told pollsters they do not understand the party’s stance on the issue”. | Political correspondent Rowena Mason wrote last night about “worries in the remain camp that more needs to be done to woo traditional Labour voters who have told pollsters they do not understand the party’s stance on the issue”. |
| Many of you argued the media was to blame rather than key figures in the party: | Many of you argued the media was to blame rather than key figures in the party: |
| Corbyn is in favour of us remaining in the EU. Mayor of London Khan is in favour of us remaining in the EU. McDonnell is in favour of us remaining in the EU. | Corbyn is in favour of us remaining in the EU. Mayor of London Khan is in favour of us remaining in the EU. McDonnell is in favour of us remaining in the EU. |
| What else does anyone need to know? Why should they get bogged down in this internal Tory squabble, which is really all the EU ref is? | What else does anyone need to know? Why should they get bogged down in this internal Tory squabble, which is really all the EU ref is? |
| it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU. | it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU. |
| Blame the media for that. Labour's position could not be more clear. | Blame the media for that. Labour's position could not be more clear. |
| Agreed, with knobs on! | Agreed, with knobs on! |
| I guess if you don't follow the news and rely on newspapers to tell you these things you could end up being in the dark about all sorts of stuff. | I guess if you don't follow the news and rely on newspapers to tell you these things you could end up being in the dark about all sorts of stuff. |
| As far as I can see the Party's position is unequivocal and is being widely promoted by hthem. In that well known radical bastion of Norfolk they've been out on the streets, knocking on doors, leafleting shoppers in Norwich and even holding a picnic on Cromer beach advocating a vote for remain. And it isn't just the local Party. Corbyn has been here, as has McDonnell both passionately arguing for remain ........... but then I guess it suits the Guardian to present this as another failure of Labours leadership rather than our mendacious and dysfunctional media. | As far as I can see the Party's position is unequivocal and is being widely promoted by hthem. In that well known radical bastion of Norfolk they've been out on the streets, knocking on doors, leafleting shoppers in Norwich and even holding a picnic on Cromer beach advocating a vote for remain. And it isn't just the local Party. Corbyn has been here, as has McDonnell both passionately arguing for remain ........... but then I guess it suits the Guardian to present this as another failure of Labours leadership rather than our mendacious and dysfunctional media. |
| There was also some disagreement over whether Labour party members should even consider party affiliation before making their decision over whether to vote leave or remain, but of course not everyone sided with the party: | There was also some disagreement over whether Labour party members should even consider party affiliation before making their decision over whether to vote leave or remain, but of course not everyone sided with the party: |
| Labour Party voters should vote on their own consciences, not through some slavish devotion to a party line. As should all intending to cast their vote, whether for remain or leave. As a Labour Party member, I lean towards leave, and no exhortation from the not-so-great and not-so-good will sway me on it. | Labour Party voters should vote on their own consciences, not through some slavish devotion to a party line. As should all intending to cast their vote, whether for remain or leave. As a Labour Party member, I lean towards leave, and no exhortation from the not-so-great and not-so-good will sway me on it. |
| This is a massive failure by the Labour Party. The EU referendum gave us the chance to spell out a distinctive vision of Britain's future as a trading nation reaching out to the wider world and determined to find new ways to build an economy for the new century. The current leadership's ill-disguised hostility to the EU and utter lack of interest in wealth creation are holding us back. | This is a massive failure by the Labour Party. The EU referendum gave us the chance to spell out a distinctive vision of Britain's future as a trading nation reaching out to the wider world and determined to find new ways to build an economy for the new century. The current leadership's ill-disguised hostility to the EU and utter lack of interest in wealth creation are holding us back. |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| 2. Pub chain JD Wetherspoon issues Brexit beermats | 2. Pub chain JD Wetherspoon issues Brexit beermats |
| One of our most talked about stories today was about beermats, soaked not in reasonably priced ale but in politics. Some were surprised, some annoyed after Wetherspoon boss Tim Martin printed 200,000 soon-to-be-soggy bits of cardboard calling for the UK to leave the EU. | One of our most talked about stories today was about beermats, soaked not in reasonably priced ale but in politics. Some were surprised, some annoyed after Wetherspoon boss Tim Martin printed 200,000 soon-to-be-soggy bits of cardboard calling for the UK to leave the EU. |
| Tim Martin is surely playing with fire with this very divisive campaign. How are his customers, staff and, don't forget, company shareholders who take a different view likely to feel? I am a frequent defender of Wetherspoons, and appreciative customer. Being force-fed views I utterly oppose is making me now caveat my support. If I was still a shareholder, I would be protesting loudly. If an employee, I would feel misused in being forced to facilitate his personal propaganda mission. | Tim Martin is surely playing with fire with this very divisive campaign. How are his customers, staff and, don't forget, company shareholders who take a different view likely to feel? I am a frequent defender of Wetherspoons, and appreciative customer. Being force-fed views I utterly oppose is making me now caveat my support. If I was still a shareholder, I would be protesting loudly. If an employee, I would feel misused in being forced to facilitate his personal propaganda mission. |
| Sorry Wetherspoons, I do not like politics brought to my face when I want to have a relaxing drink and meal at your pub. It is another sign of how desperate Brexit is to get the pub going voters on its side. With the majority of "thinking and educated" people, economists, experts in science and research, large businesses and many small ones (I am a small business owner) backing Remain is the way forward and then changing the EU from within. | Sorry Wetherspoons, I do not like politics brought to my face when I want to have a relaxing drink and meal at your pub. It is another sign of how desperate Brexit is to get the pub going voters on its side. With the majority of "thinking and educated" people, economists, experts in science and research, large businesses and many small ones (I am a small business owner) backing Remain is the way forward and then changing the EU from within. |
| Lots of change is needed but leaving is not the answer. Britain will become a small dot on the map with a voice hardly heard or that will have to make so many sacrifices and compromises with other countries to get their trade. Brexit lovers hear promises made such as no VAT on fuel, plenty of money in your pocket, rid of immigrants, and lap it all up. I am not fooled. | Lots of change is needed but leaving is not the answer. Britain will become a small dot on the map with a voice hardly heard or that will have to make so many sacrifices and compromises with other countries to get their trade. Brexit lovers hear promises made such as no VAT on fuel, plenty of money in your pocket, rid of immigrants, and lap it all up. I am not fooled. |
| When Remain wins, we will be pushing for changes to be made and our power will be in the GE 2020 where we can vote a government in that will have the guts to fight for these changes. Many other EU countries will look at Britain to take the lead and it will be strong with many affluent EU countries supporting it. | When Remain wins, we will be pushing for changes to be made and our power will be in the GE 2020 where we can vote a government in that will have the guts to fight for these changes. Many other EU countries will look at Britain to take the lead and it will be strong with many affluent EU countries supporting it. |
| Many of you wanted to talk about what they perceived as cliched views of class that seem to come up every time the chain’s customer base is discussed: | Many of you wanted to talk about what they perceived as cliched views of class that seem to come up every time the chain’s customer base is discussed: |
| You see reading the comments below is the perfect example of how out of touch people are with the miseries of the working poor who use Weatherspoons..... Comments like I never go in them or they are awful and I prefer a wine bar where Larger is £5 a pint... The core Labour vote use Weatherspoons on a daily basis and you do not ... Says it all. | You see reading the comments below is the perfect example of how out of touch people are with the miseries of the working poor who use Weatherspoons..... Comments like I never go in them or they are awful and I prefer a wine bar where Larger is £5 a pint... The core Labour vote use Weatherspoons on a daily basis and you do not ... Says it all. |
| Different worlds and different world views and that is what will destroy Labour... out of touch with those it needs to get elected... i have voted labour for 30 years and I use Weatherspoons and like them and like the people in them and talk to those people over the good value meals and a pint... Guess what ... the majority want to LEAVE and if they fail on June 23rd will vote UKIP in 2020.... | Different worlds and different world views and that is what will destroy Labour... out of touch with those it needs to get elected... i have voted labour for 30 years and I use Weatherspoons and like them and like the people in them and talk to those people over the good value meals and a pint... Guess what ... the majority want to LEAVE and if they fail on June 23rd will vote UKIP in 2020.... |
| I also voted for Corbyn and was expecting him to side with lEAVE .... How wrong was I and how out of touch is he with the real opinion of real core Labour voters | I also voted for Corbyn and was expecting him to side with lEAVE .... How wrong was I and how out of touch is he with the real opinion of real core Labour voters |
| The people who make these kind of "you're patronising the working class" comments are always: | The people who make these kind of "you're patronising the working class" comments are always: |
| Middle class people with a patrician, stereotypical view of working class people as racist lager-drinking oafs; who probably live in some Tory shire or commuter town and never, ever meet working class people, getting their views instead from bourgeois TV shows. They are like Marie Antoinette dressing up as a milkmaid and waxing about how we shouldn't be beastly to the little dears... | Middle class people with a patrician, stereotypical view of working class people as racist lager-drinking oafs; who probably live in some Tory shire or commuter town and never, ever meet working class people, getting their views instead from bourgeois TV shows. They are like Marie Antoinette dressing up as a milkmaid and waxing about how we shouldn't be beastly to the little dears... |
| And some saw irony in the group’s workforce being largely multinational. | And some saw irony in the group’s workforce being largely multinational. |
| looking forwards to visiting my local weatherspoons tonight and watching the east european bar staff arranging the new beermats. | looking forwards to visiting my local weatherspoons tonight and watching the east european bar staff arranging the new beermats. |
| i can't think of a worse way to treat your staff. | i can't think of a worse way to treat your staff. |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| 3. What happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU? | 3. What happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU? |
| In the latest in our EU referendum reality check series, Guardian reporters chart the hypothetical course ahead, starting from a “shocked European political class which finds itself grappling with an unprecedented, messy and sprawling divorce that could rumble on for years”. | In the latest in our EU referendum reality check series, Guardian reporters chart the hypothetical course ahead, starting from a “shocked European political class which finds itself grappling with an unprecedented, messy and sprawling divorce that could rumble on for years”. |
| The team aims to answer key questions, such as whether the decision is reversible, how long Brexit would take and whether MPs might engineer a second referendum – and you have been quick to join in. | The team aims to answer key questions, such as whether the decision is reversible, how long Brexit would take and whether MPs might engineer a second referendum – and you have been quick to join in. |
| So in other words leaving the EU will be a massive headache and cause global disruption. | So in other words leaving the EU will be a massive headache and cause global disruption. |
| Why should corporations and the market have to suffer due to populist rot? | Why should corporations and the market have to suffer due to populist rot? |
| The man on the Clapham omnibus will see the value of his house fall, his job put at risk, his investments go down, the value of goods skyrocket as tariffs are increased, public services collapse leading to nationalisation and hence a far worse service. We will also see the increase in populism as the far left and far right exploit the situation and blame everything from the bankers, to immigrants, to TTIP, to corporations and so on for all the world's ills, to appeal to the ignorant. | The man on the Clapham omnibus will see the value of his house fall, his job put at risk, his investments go down, the value of goods skyrocket as tariffs are increased, public services collapse leading to nationalisation and hence a far worse service. We will also see the increase in populism as the far left and far right exploit the situation and blame everything from the bankers, to immigrants, to TTIP, to corporations and so on for all the world's ills, to appeal to the ignorant. |
| Brexit would be a disaster for our global liberal corporate values. We must remain and stand proud with the EU Commission who have done so much to protect our way of life. | Brexit would be a disaster for our global liberal corporate values. We must remain and stand proud with the EU Commission who have done so much to protect our way of life. |
| Many of you were worried about the potential for political chaos doing irreparable damage. | Many of you were worried about the potential for political chaos doing irreparable damage. |
| First of all the pound will fall, leading to inflation, while salaries will not go up to compensate. Your house prices will probably fall, which won't help anyone with a mortgage, and won't help anyone else if their job is unstable. | First of all the pound will fall, leading to inflation, while salaries will not go up to compensate. Your house prices will probably fall, which won't help anyone with a mortgage, and won't help anyone else if their job is unstable. |
| All multinationals will stop investing in the UK, indeed most already have, while waiting for the results of the referendum. This will mean rising unemployment. | All multinationals will stop investing in the UK, indeed most already have, while waiting for the results of the referendum. This will mean rising unemployment. |
| Meanwhile the UKIP nutters will be loudly blaming the usual suspects, indeed anyone but them, for these self inflicted problems. | Meanwhile the UKIP nutters will be loudly blaming the usual suspects, indeed anyone but them, for these self inflicted problems. |
| Could we recover? Sure, but not without destroying the welfare state, bringing British society down to a third world level and rebuilding from there. It would take decades and cause immeasurable suffering. | Could we recover? Sure, but not without destroying the welfare state, bringing British society down to a third world level and rebuilding from there. It would take decades and cause immeasurable suffering. |
| As a lawyer, i can confirm that there is a gigantic amount of ignorance about what the legal effects of no longer being a party to an agreement are. | As a lawyer, i can confirm that there is a gigantic amount of ignorance about what the legal effects of no longer being a party to an agreement are. |
| For example, can someone confirm that any trade currently done under any trade agreement signed by the EU as opposed to "UK" can continue? And can anyone confirm what % of trade (import and export) is done under a trade agreement not entered into by the UK as a member of the EU rather than on its own? That might be a start to an informed debate. | For example, can someone confirm that any trade currently done under any trade agreement signed by the EU as opposed to "UK" can continue? And can anyone confirm what % of trade (import and export) is done under a trade agreement not entered into by the UK as a member of the EU rather than on its own? That might be a start to an informed debate. |
| And whichever side of the fence you were on, many of you played out scenarios of your own, while understanding that the future remains unclear. | And whichever side of the fence you were on, many of you played out scenarios of your own, while understanding that the future remains unclear. |
| It's very difficult to predict how things will play out, but there is one rock-solid facts as a pointer: | It's very difficult to predict how things will play out, but there is one rock-solid facts as a pointer: |
| The EU will have taken a massive hit politically. It will want to limit the damage and make sure this won't happen again. Ergo, Brexit has to be shown to be a bad decision for the UK. So the EU has no alternative but to play hardball: no cosy half-in-half-out deals, but a fight for every advantage, at the UK's expense. (It will be intolerable for the EU if euro business is all handled in London, so a chunk of the UK financial services industry will have to migrate to Paris and/or Frankfurt, particularly if Leave insist on leaving the Single Market.) | The EU will have taken a massive hit politically. It will want to limit the damage and make sure this won't happen again. Ergo, Brexit has to be shown to be a bad decision for the UK. So the EU has no alternative but to play hardball: no cosy half-in-half-out deals, but a fight for every advantage, at the UK's expense. (It will be intolerable for the EU if euro business is all handled in London, so a chunk of the UK financial services industry will have to migrate to Paris and/or Frankfurt, particularly if Leave insist on leaving the Single Market.) |
| It is absolutely certain that the member states will fight tooth-and-nail and do whatever it takes to preserve and if possible strengthen the EU. For them it's not just a trading bloc based purely on profit-and-loss thinking, it's a political and idealistic project whose demise is unthinkable. They'll fight very hard, if necessary at the UK's expense, and try to make Brexit a complete failure. | It is absolutely certain that the member states will fight tooth-and-nail and do whatever it takes to preserve and if possible strengthen the EU. For them it's not just a trading bloc based purely on profit-and-loss thinking, it's a political and idealistic project whose demise is unthinkable. They'll fight very hard, if necessary at the UK's expense, and try to make Brexit a complete failure. |
| Jean-Claude Juncker has already warned the UK should remember that deserters are not greeted with open arms. | Jean-Claude Juncker has already warned the UK should remember that deserters are not greeted with open arms. |
| That for me is a reason to vote Out. For Junker who wasn't voted for by any member of the public of any country, (Merkel was the one who ensured he got the position) to think he can dictate, threaten and bully the UK is unacceptable, and it also conveys that there is no real friendship. | That for me is a reason to vote Out. For Junker who wasn't voted for by any member of the public of any country, (Merkel was the one who ensured he got the position) to think he can dictate, threaten and bully the UK is unacceptable, and it also conveys that there is no real friendship. |
| It is equally possible that people in France and Germany also vote out in 2017. Merkel and Hollands credibility are down the pan, over various matters in their own country's. People are not stupid, they see the EU as a club being run, by self-important, little people, who get 'high' on coming up with laws for this, that, and the other, which only benefit their corporate mates of having meeting after meeting, yet nothing resulting of real consequence, and of doing the US bidding i.e. TTIP, and of course the migrant crises, which can all be traced back to the US and its poodles, bombing the hell out of countries in the middle east because they want regime change. | It is equally possible that people in France and Germany also vote out in 2017. Merkel and Hollands credibility are down the pan, over various matters in their own country's. People are not stupid, they see the EU as a club being run, by self-important, little people, who get 'high' on coming up with laws for this, that, and the other, which only benefit their corporate mates of having meeting after meeting, yet nothing resulting of real consequence, and of doing the US bidding i.e. TTIP, and of course the migrant crises, which can all be traced back to the US and its poodles, bombing the hell out of countries in the middle east because they want regime change. |
| Regime change in the EU, and Europe, might well, be a good thing. | Regime change in the EU, and Europe, might well, be a good thing. |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you are talking about on the EU referendum. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. | We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you are talking about on the EU referendum. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. |