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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/06/eu-more-democratic-than-lords-readers-eu-referendum
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| 'EU is more democratic than the Lords': readers on the EU referendum 'EU is more democratic than the Lords': readers on the EU referendum | |
| (3 months later) | |
| Monday morning began with yet another political referendum tit-for-tat as Boris Johnson claimed the UK would face a “triple whammy of woe” should it stay in the EU, and David Cameron said he was wrong. As Claire Phipps said in her morning briefing: “You could spend the whole day listening to politicians argue the pros and cons of the EU, if that’s your bag.” | Monday morning began with yet another political referendum tit-for-tat as Boris Johnson claimed the UK would face a “triple whammy of woe” should it stay in the EU, and David Cameron said he was wrong. As Claire Phipps said in her morning briefing: “You could spend the whole day listening to politicians argue the pros and cons of the EU, if that’s your bag.” |
| Many readers have been doing just that, and today’s focus has been on Cameron, young people, and what the EU does for our food. | Many readers have been doing just that, and today’s focus has been on Cameron, young people, and what the EU does for our food. |
| You can read about the conversations here and click on the links at the end of each point to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens. | You can read about the conversations here and click on the links at the end of each point to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens. |
| 1. EU referendum live: Cameron says Brexit vote would be economic ‘bomb’ | 1. EU referendum live: Cameron says Brexit vote would be economic ‘bomb’ |
| Team remain’s lastest tactics – talking up the shock to the economy a potential Brexit would bring, warning that the economy was already slowing due to the uncertainty and calling Brexit campaigners “undemocratic” and “reckless” – got you talking this morning. Not all of you were fans of the “scaremongering” rhetoric, and many of you wanted to discuss impact closer to home. Here are some of your views: | Team remain’s lastest tactics – talking up the shock to the economy a potential Brexit would bring, warning that the economy was already slowing due to the uncertainty and calling Brexit campaigners “undemocratic” and “reckless” – got you talking this morning. Not all of you were fans of the “scaremongering” rhetoric, and many of you wanted to discuss impact closer to home. Here are some of your views: |
| As a committed Bremainer I am now of the opinion that we've lost this one due to Cameron's ridiculous scaremongering. | As a committed Bremainer I am now of the opinion that we've lost this one due to Cameron's ridiculous scaremongering. |
| I am sick of having to pretend that a vote to remain is not a vote to eventually be part of a - much needed - European superstate. European friends and colleagues see the direction of travel for the UK to be a) passport free travel to include the UK, B) pan European welfare benefits directive c) adoption of the single currency d) European foreign policy to take the lead and e) European military structure | I am sick of having to pretend that a vote to remain is not a vote to eventually be part of a - much needed - European superstate. European friends and colleagues see the direction of travel for the UK to be a) passport free travel to include the UK, B) pan European welfare benefits directive c) adoption of the single currency d) European foreign policy to take the lead and e) European military structure |
| I am all up for this and unless we Bremainians open up and be honest about what a vote to remain truly means, we will have to fight this battle over and over every time we try and merge the UK into the EU state. | I am all up for this and unless we Bremainians open up and be honest about what a vote to remain truly means, we will have to fight this battle over and over every time we try and merge the UK into the EU state. |
| It is hyperbole to suggest all will be chaos in the event of a leave vote - we simply don't know what will happen to the country. Johnson et al tell us all will be OK - the EU will still want to be nice to us and the economy will boom from reducing regulations but frankly I wouldn't trust any of them to manage their way out of a paper bag even with outside assistance. | It is hyperbole to suggest all will be chaos in the event of a leave vote - we simply don't know what will happen to the country. Johnson et al tell us all will be OK - the EU will still want to be nice to us and the economy will boom from reducing regulations but frankly I wouldn't trust any of them to manage their way out of a paper bag even with outside assistance. |
| The Brexit crowd are inviting us to cover our eyes put in ear plugs and jump. All might be well or we might go over a cliff. | The Brexit crowd are inviting us to cover our eyes put in ear plugs and jump. All might be well or we might go over a cliff. |
| The harm is that if the UK is outside the EU we have no voice at all in any of the changes which will affect us. | The harm is that if the UK is outside the EU we have no voice at all in any of the changes which will affect us. |
| Look at all the other European nations who have trade deals with the EU; Norway, Iceland, Switzerland even Turkey who we all know will only ever join the EU when hell freezes over. They are all affected by and have to adopt EU legislation in order to trade with it with no voice in what it contains. | Look at all the other European nations who have trade deals with the EU; Norway, Iceland, Switzerland even Turkey who we all know will only ever join the EU when hell freezes over. They are all affected by and have to adopt EU legislation in order to trade with it with no voice in what it contains. |
| At the same time many other non-European markets (Asia & Middle East) are also adopting aspects of EU legislation with particular reference to product safety both consumer and commercial. This is because it makes sense and has been well thought out since it has been debated by a group of people with a common purpose with a common goal who can see things from slightly different angles meaning that fundamental issues tend not to be missed or covered up...If the UK leaves the EU we will no longer be part of this. | At the same time many other non-European markets (Asia & Middle East) are also adopting aspects of EU legislation with particular reference to product safety both consumer and commercial. This is because it makes sense and has been well thought out since it has been debated by a group of people with a common purpose with a common goal who can see things from slightly different angles meaning that fundamental issues tend not to be missed or covered up...If the UK leaves the EU we will no longer be part of this. |
| I not rich, I am a skint single parent, and I can't afford to take a financial hit, and many EU regulations have helped me massively in my workplace, specifically rules to do with safe working practices that I can't see any Tory government bringing in. | I not rich, I am a skint single parent, and I can't afford to take a financial hit, and many EU regulations have helped me massively in my workplace, specifically rules to do with safe working practices that I can't see any Tory government bringing in. |
| Plus the EU is more democratic than the House of Lords. The idea we'll suddenly have 'power to the people' is daft. | Plus the EU is more democratic than the House of Lords. The idea we'll suddenly have 'power to the people' is daft. |
| Cameron was at a remain campaign event alongside Tim Farron, Natalie Bennett and Harriet Harman, which prompted Vote Leave to accuse him of campaigning alongside “losers”. A view not shared by all of you. | Cameron was at a remain campaign event alongside Tim Farron, Natalie Bennett and Harriet Harman, which prompted Vote Leave to accuse him of campaigning alongside “losers”. A view not shared by all of you. |
| Harriet Harman shows a better side of Labour politics today than does Jeremy Corbyn. And I never in a million years foresaw myself saying that. The need to stay IN derives partly from the need to preserve our rights to vote. That the leader of the official opposition can't put silly tribalism to one side and fight to preserve the UK citizen's franchise for a few days is quite shocking. One might suppose that he prefers an easy life to discharging his public duties. | Harriet Harman shows a better side of Labour politics today than does Jeremy Corbyn. And I never in a million years foresaw myself saying that. The need to stay IN derives partly from the need to preserve our rights to vote. That the leader of the official opposition can't put silly tribalism to one side and fight to preserve the UK citizen's franchise for a few days is quite shocking. One might suppose that he prefers an easy life to discharging his public duties. |
| It's not like suporting a football team, where allegiencies hold firm. The IN/OUT referendem poses a number of questions. There are pros and cons on both sides, which have been talked about endlessly. From a political and social view, there are benefits to be had from leaving. From a purely economic view, both personal and national, then there are benefits in remaining. | It's not like suporting a football team, where allegiencies hold firm. The IN/OUT referendem poses a number of questions. There are pros and cons on both sides, which have been talked about endlessly. From a political and social view, there are benefits to be had from leaving. From a purely economic view, both personal and national, then there are benefits in remaining. |
| There're other factors, such as NHS and TTIP. Whether a we are better protected in this regard while in the EU is not clear. | There're other factors, such as NHS and TTIP. Whether a we are better protected in this regard while in the EU is not clear. |
| The political landscape is also changing in Europe, where populist anti EU parties are making steady gains. | The political landscape is also changing in Europe, where populist anti EU parties are making steady gains. |
| Taking a closer look at the econmics, each of us would consider how much we are exposed to a risk of short term volatility and medium term losses. Each of us will be exposed to the turmoils of the market to a different extent, and this is where things are not quite clear cut. | Taking a closer look at the econmics, each of us would consider how much we are exposed to a risk of short term volatility and medium term losses. Each of us will be exposed to the turmoils of the market to a different extent, and this is where things are not quite clear cut. |
| It's not known how many people within the country are shareholders or have unit trusts. Pensions are also exposed, but not quite as heavily, to the market turmoil and may affect the level of pension one may receive, particularly if retiring within the next 10 to 20 years. Job security, inflation are also major concerns. | It's not known how many people within the country are shareholders or have unit trusts. Pensions are also exposed, but not quite as heavily, to the market turmoil and may affect the level of pension one may receive, particularly if retiring within the next 10 to 20 years. Job security, inflation are also major concerns. |
| All in all, I'm still undecided. | All in all, I'm still undecided. |
| I'm leaning towards Exit but, if Shengen issues were addressed …...………………... | I'm leaning towards Exit but, if Shengen issues were addressed …...………………... |
| Many of you attacked the hyperbole – and perhaps arrogance – on both sides of the debate. | Many of you attacked the hyperbole – and perhaps arrogance – on both sides of the debate. |
| A few polls don't prove much, last week they were showing remain in double-figures. The immigration statistics and Cameron's poor performance in the TV debate compared to Gove has swung things, but different statistics and poor TV performances by Leave can swing it right back.Besides, as the BBC has just revealed, MP's are planning on keeping us in anyway, even if the vote goes against it. | A few polls don't prove much, last week they were showing remain in double-figures. The immigration statistics and Cameron's poor performance in the TV debate compared to Gove has swung things, but different statistics and poor TV performances by Leave can swing it right back.Besides, as the BBC has just revealed, MP's are planning on keeping us in anyway, even if the vote goes against it. |
| The hyperbole and fear tactics on both sides continue ever more frantically, while various politicians are clearly using the issue in an attempt to gain or cling onto power. The Tories can no longer paper over the huge cracks in their party structure. | The hyperbole and fear tactics on both sides continue ever more frantically, while various politicians are clearly using the issue in an attempt to gain or cling onto power. The Tories can no longer paper over the huge cracks in their party structure. |
| People's voting decisions need to be based on fact as far as is possible and what they think will be better for the UK. That may differ according to personal circumstances and where in the UK they live. What actually happens to this country - in or out - is largely a matter of speculation, dependent on future events unpredictable and unknowable. | People's voting decisions need to be based on fact as far as is possible and what they think will be better for the UK. That may differ according to personal circumstances and where in the UK they live. What actually happens to this country - in or out - is largely a matter of speculation, dependent on future events unpredictable and unknowable. |
| Oddly enough, whatever the result, I expect the sun to rise in the east and set in the west on 24 June and every day afterwards, unless someone knows that “the end of the world is nigh!” | Oddly enough, whatever the result, I expect the sun to rise in the east and set in the west on 24 June and every day afterwards, unless someone knows that “the end of the world is nigh!” |
| Cameron says Brexit vote would be economic 'bomb'. Then please tell me Mr Cameron, why did you put us through this god foresaken ultimatum referendum? You already told us you werent standing as PM again, handy that!!!! You are the worst Prime Minister in my lifetime. | Cameron says Brexit vote would be economic 'bomb'. Then please tell me Mr Cameron, why did you put us through this god foresaken ultimatum referendum? You already told us you werent standing as PM again, handy that!!!! You are the worst Prime Minister in my lifetime. |
| Finally, comparisons with political campaigning in the US are a common strand in your conversations: | Finally, comparisons with political campaigning in the US are a common strand in your conversations: |
| So Boris manages to put out some commentary without saying a single thing. One does worry that when you look at the styles of engaging with the media, Trump and Boris have so much in common. If you talk enough nonsense, then the narrative is focused on responding to and disproving that nonsense rather than just ignoring it and it becomes cyclical. | So Boris manages to put out some commentary without saying a single thing. One does worry that when you look at the styles of engaging with the media, Trump and Boris have so much in common. If you talk enough nonsense, then the narrative is focused on responding to and disproving that nonsense rather than just ignoring it and it becomes cyclical. |
| The "350m" claim is one example - so many column inches devoted to it when the consensus is that it's rubbish but, because a handful of people keep peddling it, it continues to be front and centre. | The "350m" claim is one example - so many column inches devoted to it when the consensus is that it's rubbish but, because a handful of people keep peddling it, it continues to be front and centre. |
| 2. ‘I’m selling democracy’: activists rally young people to vote in EU poll | 2. ‘I’m selling democracy’: activists rally young people to vote in EU poll |
| Jessica Elgot and Libby Brooks have been with campaigners and communities in London and Scotland, finding out what gets young people voting and why, often, they don’t. You weren’t surprised young people frequently feel disenfranchised by the political process. | Jessica Elgot and Libby Brooks have been with campaigners and communities in London and Scotland, finding out what gets young people voting and why, often, they don’t. You weren’t surprised young people frequently feel disenfranchised by the political process. |
| Perhaps the young are largely confused because they are torn between two worlds. One the one hand the education establishment has created one mindset based the received wisdom of academic studies. This leads to peer group pressure to be left wing because the group know that’s what they should be thinking. On the other hand they might listen to their parents and other older people in their families whose opinions are shaped by life experiences; such people are not conditioned, generally speaking, by books and theories but still seem to know what they are talking about. That’s the problem confronting young people having to make political choices. | Perhaps the young are largely confused because they are torn between two worlds. One the one hand the education establishment has created one mindset based the received wisdom of academic studies. This leads to peer group pressure to be left wing because the group know that’s what they should be thinking. On the other hand they might listen to their parents and other older people in their families whose opinions are shaped by life experiences; such people are not conditioned, generally speaking, by books and theories but still seem to know what they are talking about. That’s the problem confronting young people having to make political choices. |
| This really shouldn't be a surprise. 30 years of Europe hostility in the media, successive governments finding it convenient to blame the EU for directives they don't like (but taking the credit for directives they do like), combined with a lack of awareness or discussion of the EU and modern democracy in schools. Why are schools teaching ancient history when they should be teaching about how modern politics works and how our democratic institutions function including the EU? | This really shouldn't be a surprise. 30 years of Europe hostility in the media, successive governments finding it convenient to blame the EU for directives they don't like (but taking the credit for directives they do like), combined with a lack of awareness or discussion of the EU and modern democracy in schools. Why are schools teaching ancient history when they should be teaching about how modern politics works and how our democratic institutions function including the EU? |
| Our government are reckless and complicit in controlling what information about politics the population receives, so what do they expect in referendum? Its no surprise that any chance we are given a straight majority vote to reject the status quo on a plate, people will jump at it regardless of the facts or the devastation it might cause. | Our government are reckless and complicit in controlling what information about politics the population receives, so what do they expect in referendum? Its no surprise that any chance we are given a straight majority vote to reject the status quo on a plate, people will jump at it regardless of the facts or the devastation it might cause. |
| Good on these young activists, if only there had been more of them out at the last election. The fact that politics is an area that so many people think has nothing to do with their lives is an indictment of our media and education. I seem to remember that it was the Tories who condemned it's inclusion in the curriculum as a left wing plot. Now it has come back to bite them, although Gove must be pleased he did his bit to make sure the young were encouraged to become young entrepreneurs while knowing nought about making politics work for the good of society. | Good on these young activists, if only there had been more of them out at the last election. The fact that politics is an area that so many people think has nothing to do with their lives is an indictment of our media and education. I seem to remember that it was the Tories who condemned it's inclusion in the curriculum as a left wing plot. Now it has come back to bite them, although Gove must be pleased he did his bit to make sure the young were encouraged to become young entrepreneurs while knowing nought about making politics work for the good of society. |
| voting to surrender your political independence just because you don't like this current tory regime is like signing over the deeds to your house because you have rats (appropriate analogy). it's ridiculous. | voting to surrender your political independence just because you don't like this current tory regime is like signing over the deeds to your house because you have rats (appropriate analogy). it's ridiculous. |
| the tories are not in power for ever. it's looking like labour will win the next general election and this tory regime may not even last the full term anyway. | the tories are not in power for ever. it's looking like labour will win the next general election and this tory regime may not even last the full term anyway. |
| vote for britain not the EU. | vote for britain not the EU. |
| 3. What has the EU ever done for my … dinner? | 3. What has the EU ever done for my … dinner? |
| The latest in this strand of our EU referendum reality check series examined one of the issues that always brings debate to the table. Food safety may be a niche issue for some, and not one that stirs emotion as much as straight bananas, but there were plenty of comments arguing for us to take it seriously. | The latest in this strand of our EU referendum reality check series examined one of the issues that always brings debate to the table. Food safety may be a niche issue for some, and not one that stirs emotion as much as straight bananas, but there were plenty of comments arguing for us to take it seriously. |
| Food safety is a big issue and not on the radar of many people. Without the EU regulations and flagging system ( updated daily) we would be at the peril of potentially unsafe imports. We just cant do it on our own. Too expensive, too sluggish. | Food safety is a big issue and not on the radar of many people. Without the EU regulations and flagging system ( updated daily) we would be at the peril of potentially unsafe imports. We just cant do it on our own. Too expensive, too sluggish. |
| Perhaps the most hotly contested thread to this conversation was the discussion about the differences between the EU and the European Economic Community (EEC). | Perhaps the most hotly contested thread to this conversation was the discussion about the differences between the EU and the European Economic Community (EEC). |
| I hate to be the one to have to point this out, but the EU can claim absolutely zero credit for most of this - nearly everything listed here as a triumph was bought in by the EEC, not by the EU. | I hate to be the one to have to point this out, but the EU can claim absolutely zero credit for most of this - nearly everything listed here as a triumph was bought in by the EEC, not by the EU. |
| Policies from the EU’s predecessor to maximise production by subsidising farmers after the second world war brought rationing to an end and ushered in a period of plenty. | Policies from the EU’s predecessor to maximise production by subsidising farmers after the second world war brought rationing to an end and ushered in a period of plenty. |
| This line in particular is especially risible. Rationing in the UK ended in 1954 - the EEC only came into being in 1958. | This line in particular is especially risible. Rationing in the UK ended in 1954 - the EEC only came into being in 1958. |
| Besides which - a rather more valid argument, in the face of this "period of plenty" nonsense, would instead be to point out the horrendous damage to the environment that resulted from decades of Common Agricultural Policy subsidies... | Besides which - a rather more valid argument, in the face of this "period of plenty" nonsense, would instead be to point out the horrendous damage to the environment that resulted from decades of Common Agricultural Policy subsidies... |
| The EU is the continuation of the ECC - so yes, I think the EU can absolutely claim it. Don't know exactly what does bring to today's debate tho. | The EU is the continuation of the ECC - so yes, I think the EU can absolutely claim it. Don't know exactly what does bring to today's debate tho. |
| While much of the debate focused on big business and the wider influence of the EU on food policy, there were several readers involved in this exchange on small food producers. | While much of the debate focused on big business and the wider influence of the EU on food policy, there were several readers involved in this exchange on small food producers. |
| Does the EU protect small food and drink producers. This is a worry of mine. The EU tends to support the needs of big corporations and that could have serious implications for how farming in the UK is conducted with changes to the countryside we love so much as agriculture becomes more industrialised. | Does the EU protect small food and drink producers. This is a worry of mine. The EU tends to support the needs of big corporations and that could have serious implications for how farming in the UK is conducted with changes to the countryside we love so much as agriculture becomes more industrialised. |
| The EU serves to keep the whole of the EU competitive. The EU competition commission has done more to attack large corporations for their tax evasion schemes than any national government has ever done. | The EU serves to keep the whole of the EU competitive. The EU competition commission has done more to attack large corporations for their tax evasion schemes than any national government has ever done. |
| And it's the countryside that benefits from the EU regional development scheme, by the way. I live in a provincial town in the Netherlands and all major infrastructure projects over here have had significant EU investment. Meanwhile my own government has publicly written off the provinces... | And it's the countryside that benefits from the EU regional development scheme, by the way. I live in a provincial town in the Netherlands and all major infrastructure projects over here have had significant EU investment. Meanwhile my own government has publicly written off the provinces... |
| Will prices dramatically change after a Brexit? We don’t know – but it’s another worry for some readers. | Will prices dramatically change after a Brexit? We don’t know – but it’s another worry for some readers. |
| Judging by the comments on display here, I suppose it will take the first wave of post-Brexit food price shocks for British people to fully understand just how much benefit they have been deriving from the EC/EU for all of these years. | Judging by the comments on display here, I suppose it will take the first wave of post-Brexit food price shocks for British people to fully understand just how much benefit they have been deriving from the EC/EU for all of these years. |
| The rest of Europe will be looking on, jeering and pointing. | The rest of Europe will be looking on, jeering and pointing. |
| And, while it might not be strictly politics, if Britain does decide to leave the EU, it sure better keep the recipes ... | And, while it might not be strictly politics, if Britain does decide to leave the EU, it sure better keep the recipes ... |
| If nothing else, closer ties with Europe have vastly improved British cuisine in recent years. On my first visit to Britain I was truly horrified by what was on offer. Greasy, tasteless, boring. Things are much better now, even though, outside London, it can still be quite difficult to find a decent cup of coffee. Hopefully, you will not return to your bad old ways after Brexit. | If nothing else, closer ties with Europe have vastly improved British cuisine in recent years. On my first visit to Britain I was truly horrified by what was on offer. Greasy, tasteless, boring. Things are much better now, even though, outside London, it can still be quite difficult to find a decent cup of coffee. Hopefully, you will not return to your bad old ways after Brexit. |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| Finally, this, from a reader who warns that if you think the referendum is all a bit too much, you haven’t seen the half of it. | Finally, this, from a reader who warns that if you think the referendum is all a bit too much, you haven’t seen the half of it. |
| Increasingly I'm hearing people saying they are sick of hearing about the referendum and want it all over with. Those people thinking of voting to leave need to remember that our leaving the EU would be just the beginning. There would be years of uncertainty which would cause a great deal of economic instability not to mention political chaos. | Increasingly I'm hearing people saying they are sick of hearing about the referendum and want it all over with. Those people thinking of voting to leave need to remember that our leaving the EU would be just the beginning. There would be years of uncertainty which would cause a great deal of economic instability not to mention political chaos. |
| Every election people always list the economy as the most important thing. Why then take a massive economic risk in a pig headed belief that you know better than the overwhelming majority of economists? If you care about our economy, jobs and prosperity voting to leave is an act of gross idiocy. Oh, and it won't fix our so called immigration problem either. | Every election people always list the economy as the most important thing. Why then take a massive economic risk in a pig headed belief that you know better than the overwhelming majority of economists? If you care about our economy, jobs and prosperity voting to leave is an act of gross idiocy. Oh, and it won't fix our so called immigration problem either. |
| We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you’re talking about in the comment sections on the EU referendum. | We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you’re talking about in the comment sections on the EU referendum. |
| Many of you have asked to see more EU referendum facts, so it’s worth taking a look at this piece on what happens next and why the same statistics can be used to suit both sides of the debate. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. | Many of you have asked to see more EU referendum facts, so it’s worth taking a look at this piece on what happens next and why the same statistics can be used to suit both sides of the debate. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. |