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| EU referendum: our panel on Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon's TV debate | EU referendum: our panel on Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon's TV debate |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| Deborah Orr: ‘It doesn’t work that well. But what bureaucracy does? They’re annoying’ | Deborah Orr: ‘It doesn’t work that well. But what bureaucracy does? They’re annoying’ |
| If I were Boris Johnson, I’d think twice before insisting that I was concerned about “the 92% of the world who don’t come from the EU”. Sure, this point neatly answers accusations that leave campaigners are racist, but surely people also start thinking that a lot of immigration fuss is being made over a relatively small number of people. Next, we’ll all start thinking that a lot of democratic fuss is being made over a relatively small number of regulations. Or that a lot of time and energy is being spent on debating matters that aren’t going to help solve Britain’s particular problems at all. | If I were Boris Johnson, I’d think twice before insisting that I was concerned about “the 92% of the world who don’t come from the EU”. Sure, this point neatly answers accusations that leave campaigners are racist, but surely people also start thinking that a lot of immigration fuss is being made over a relatively small number of people. Next, we’ll all start thinking that a lot of democratic fuss is being made over a relatively small number of regulations. Or that a lot of time and energy is being spent on debating matters that aren’t going to help solve Britain’s particular problems at all. |
| I found it a bit sad, watching half a dozen people squabbling so hard over something as quotidian as the EU. It is a sensible enough arrangement, for a bunch of neighbouring countries with common interests. But it’s no more than that. It doesn’t work that well. But what bureaucracy does? They’re annoying. But we need them. | I found it a bit sad, watching half a dozen people squabbling so hard over something as quotidian as the EU. It is a sensible enough arrangement, for a bunch of neighbouring countries with common interests. But it’s no more than that. It doesn’t work that well. But what bureaucracy does? They’re annoying. But we need them. |
| Angela Eagle and Nicola Sturgeon did their best to point out that poor public services, lack of social housing and underfunding in the NHS were nothing to do with anything that the EU was meddling in, and everything to do with the decisions our own elected representatives continue to make. Amber Rudd did her best – a pretty good best – to point out that the EU would still exist, and would still have to be traded with, even we had no control over it. It, of course, would still have control over us. | Angela Eagle and Nicola Sturgeon did their best to point out that poor public services, lack of social housing and underfunding in the NHS were nothing to do with anything that the EU was meddling in, and everything to do with the decisions our own elected representatives continue to make. Amber Rudd did her best – a pretty good best – to point out that the EU would still exist, and would still have to be traded with, even we had no control over it. It, of course, would still have control over us. |
| All of the outers, especially Andrea Leadsom, were keen to warn against listening to experts. Experts in healthcare should be rejected in favour of the opinions of patients. Economists should be rejected in favour of the views of small business owners. You began to wonder why all these politicians were up on the platform while the audience was, well, in the audience. The referendum is entirely about listening to the people. Why all these chaps feel they need to keep on telling us what to think is something of a mystery. The ITV debate didn’t solve it. | |
| Paul Mason: ‘If you read the body language you came away with one image: leave are relaxed, remain worried’ | Paul Mason: ‘If you read the body language you came away with one image: leave are relaxed, remain worried’ |
| Of all the debates, this was the one that mattered. Bernice, of Emmerdale, had just given her man the elbow over his gay fling with a plumber, when ITV segued – sneakily without an ad break – into an EU referendum debate aimed squarely at the people who will actually decide it: the Emmerdale demographic. | Of all the debates, this was the one that mattered. Bernice, of Emmerdale, had just given her man the elbow over his gay fling with a plumber, when ITV segued – sneakily without an ad break – into an EU referendum debate aimed squarely at the people who will actually decide it: the Emmerdale demographic. |
| For the first 28 minutes, it was all about immigration and remain lost. The only two phrases I remember from the remain side are “it’s a complex issue” and “there’s not a consensus”. The phrase that resonated from leave was “take back control”. | For the first 28 minutes, it was all about immigration and remain lost. The only two phrases I remember from the remain side are “it’s a complex issue” and “there’s not a consensus”. The phrase that resonated from leave was “take back control”. |
| Debate revolved around an Aussie style points system, with the remain side claiming, somewhat implausibly, it would increase migration. | Debate revolved around an Aussie style points system, with the remain side claiming, somewhat implausibly, it would increase migration. |
| Eagle, having stuttered, landed one superb groin-level shot on Boris Johnson – over the £350m claim: “Get that lie off your bus.” But apart from that, the remain side were strangers to demotic oratory. | |
| When it moved to the economy, the battle was more even. Nobody from leave dared venture into the concrete territory of what kind of trade deal the EU would be prepared to do with Britain. Sturgeon, who wants her own country to leave the UK, wisely took a back seat over the Union’s economic future. | When it moved to the economy, the battle was more even. Nobody from leave dared venture into the concrete territory of what kind of trade deal the EU would be prepared to do with Britain. Sturgeon, who wants her own country to leave the UK, wisely took a back seat over the Union’s economic future. |
| As the night dragged on, I found myself applying a “tension-ometer” to each of the speakers. Rudd was off the scale – stern, stressed and angry. Eagle, likewise but occasionally triggered applause by insulting Boris. The leave side were relaxed and conversational, and steered that conversation repeatedly back towards immigration and control. | As the night dragged on, I found myself applying a “tension-ometer” to each of the speakers. Rudd was off the scale – stern, stressed and angry. Eagle, likewise but occasionally triggered applause by insulting Boris. The leave side were relaxed and conversational, and steered that conversation repeatedly back towards immigration and control. |
| Around the hour Boris unleashed the tale of the Aussie paramedics. We couldn’t find enough English-speaking paramedics so we had to recruit some Aussies, who faced huge difficulties compared to EU paramedics. Amid the stunned silence of the audience, it dawned on me this whole Brexit debate seems to be a proxy argument about Australia. | Around the hour Boris unleashed the tale of the Aussie paramedics. We couldn’t find enough English-speaking paramedics so we had to recruit some Aussies, who faced huge difficulties compared to EU paramedics. Amid the stunned silence of the audience, it dawned on me this whole Brexit debate seems to be a proxy argument about Australia. |
| After that it got into the territory that makes people’s eyes glaze over. Remain fired “expert opinion” into the debate; leave fired back with the word “control”. | After that it got into the territory that makes people’s eyes glaze over. Remain fired “expert opinion” into the debate; leave fired back with the word “control”. |
| Among the politicians, Gisela Stuart was quietly authoritative; Leadsom persuasively chatty; Boris at his self-effacing best. Rudd actually made a stronger case for herself to replace Cameron than Johnson did. Sturgeon too showed her prime ministerial class. But if you read the body language you came away with one image: leave are relaxed, remain worried. And they are right to be. | Among the politicians, Gisela Stuart was quietly authoritative; Leadsom persuasively chatty; Boris at his self-effacing best. Rudd actually made a stronger case for herself to replace Cameron than Johnson did. Sturgeon too showed her prime ministerial class. But if you read the body language you came away with one image: leave are relaxed, remain worried. And they are right to be. |
| Rafael Behr: ‘Inspiration was in short supply all round but it was needed more by the remainers’ | Rafael Behr: ‘Inspiration was in short supply all round but it was needed more by the remainers’ |
| It was a half an hour before any of the participants stirred a reaction from the audience. Eagle, challenging Boris on his use of the discredited claim that EU membership costs £350m a week, told the former mayor of London: “Get that lie off your bus,” to a smatter of laughter. It sounded more like relief that someone had brought some spark to the proceedings than a resounding endorsement. The debate until then had been wooden. | It was a half an hour before any of the participants stirred a reaction from the audience. Eagle, challenging Boris on his use of the discredited claim that EU membership costs £350m a week, told the former mayor of London: “Get that lie off your bus,” to a smatter of laughter. It sounded more like relief that someone had brought some spark to the proceedings than a resounding endorsement. The debate until then had been wooden. |
| The opening statements were robotic exercises in dense message delivery. “Stronger, safer, better off,” said the remainers. “Take control,” chanted the leavers. Even Johnson seemed tense at the start, although he loosened up as time went on, developing a fluency that was matched only by Sturgeon. | The opening statements were robotic exercises in dense message delivery. “Stronger, safer, better off,” said the remainers. “Take control,” chanted the leavers. Even Johnson seemed tense at the start, although he loosened up as time went on, developing a fluency that was matched only by Sturgeon. |
| The Scottish first minister was the remainer who best managed to sound enthusiastic about the European project, making a moral, economic and strategic argument for openness to the world. The challenge she and her co-campaigners faced was the abstraction of their case. | The Scottish first minister was the remainer who best managed to sound enthusiastic about the European project, making a moral, economic and strategic argument for openness to the world. The challenge she and her co-campaigners faced was the abstraction of their case. |
| On the economy, the remainers found themselves arguing theoretically, asserting a notional risk while their leave rivals repeated the mantra of restored “control” with militaristic discipline. In vain did Rudd and Eagle list the international authorities who query the wisdom of Brexit. In vain did they try to skewer Johnson with barbs about careerism and integrity. (“The only number he’s interested in is No 10,” said Rudd. It came across as a premeditated attack, not spontaneous wit.) | On the economy, the remainers found themselves arguing theoretically, asserting a notional risk while their leave rivals repeated the mantra of restored “control” with militaristic discipline. In vain did Rudd and Eagle list the international authorities who query the wisdom of Brexit. In vain did they try to skewer Johnson with barbs about careerism and integrity. (“The only number he’s interested in is No 10,” said Rudd. It came across as a premeditated attack, not spontaneous wit.) |
| The leavers avoided sounding too fanatical against immigration, while cramming it into every clause – then having the chutzpah to accuse remain of scaremongering. The vital argument that European collaboration enhances British influence in the world was well made by Eagle, to a very minor ovation. Inspiration was in short supply all round but it was needed more by the remainers. A generation of reluctance by British politicians to make a positive case for Europe made itself felt. Muscles that needed exerting seemed limp for want of use. | The leavers avoided sounding too fanatical against immigration, while cramming it into every clause – then having the chutzpah to accuse remain of scaremongering. The vital argument that European collaboration enhances British influence in the world was well made by Eagle, to a very minor ovation. Inspiration was in short supply all round but it was needed more by the remainers. A generation of reluctance by British politicians to make a positive case for Europe made itself felt. Muscles that needed exerting seemed limp for want of use. |