''Well done Corbyn for attacking Farage': readers on the EU referendum' diff viewer (1/2)

This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on June 21, 2016 14:06 (UTC). It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.

You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/well-done-corbyn-for-attacking-farage-readers-on-the-eu-referendum

The article has changed 3 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Previous version 1 2 Next version

Previous version 1 2 Next version

Version 1	Version 2
'Well done Corbyn for attacking Farage': readers on the EU referendum	'Well done Corbyn for attacking Farage': readers on the EU referendum
2016-06-21 14:45:06 UTC	2016-09-03 10:00:35 UTC (2 months later)
As referendum day nears we continue our daily look at your views on the campaign headlines, with a final scramble for votes well under way. Here we discuss your reactions to a speech by Jeremy Corbyn in Manchester, the relationship between bookies’ odds and polling as we attempt to get to grips with what might happen, and thoughts on the latest celebrity to tell us how they are going to vote.	As referendum day nears we continue our daily look at your views on the campaign headlines, with a final scramble for votes well under way. Here we discuss your reactions to a speech by Jeremy Corbyn in Manchester, the relationship between bookies’ odds and polling as we attempt to get to grips with what might happen, and thoughts on the latest celebrity to tell us how they are going to vote.
Click on the links at the end of each section to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens.	Click on the links at the end of each section to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens.
1. EU referendum live: Corbyn says Labour ‘ready’ for an early election after EU vote	1. EU referendum live: Corbyn says Labour ‘ready’ for an early election after EU vote
Jeremy Corbyn took Labour’s case for remain on the road to deliver a speech in Manchester. He talked about the economy after George Soros predicted a black Friday, and in a Q&A session addressed the perceived concerns of some of his party’s voters on free movement of labour. He also attacked Nigel Farage’s anti-migrant poster and criticised tabloid newspapers for denying the public a serious debate about immigration.	Jeremy Corbyn took Labour’s case for remain on the road to deliver a speech in Manchester. He talked about the economy after George Soros predicted a black Friday, and in a Q&A session addressed the perceived concerns of some of his party’s voters on free movement of labour. He also attacked Nigel Farage’s anti-migrant poster and criticised tabloid newspapers for denying the public a serious debate about immigration.
Corbyn says that a vote to leave the EU would embolden Nigel Farage and those who support the “disgusting” poster that he produced.	Corbyn says that a vote to leave the EU would embolden Nigel Farage and those who support the “disgusting” poster that he produced.
He says prejudice, nastiness and racism never built a house, taught a child or trained a doctor.	He says prejudice, nastiness and racism never built a house, taught a child or trained a doctor.
Housing is in short supply because governments have not built enough, he says.	Housing is in short supply because governments have not built enough, he says.
He says migrant workers are not a burden on the NHS. They are its saviours. He says you are more likely to be treated by an EU migrant in hospital than to be lying in a bed next to one.	He says migrant workers are not a burden on the NHS. They are its saviours. He says you are more likely to be treated by an EU migrant in hospital than to be lying in a bed next to one.
And he says the humanitarian refugee crisis should be dealt with with “humanity”, not “nastiness”.	And he says the humanitarian refugee crisis should be dealt with with “humanity”, not “nastiness”.
All of that is real "nail on head" stuff from Corbyn. Got to the crux of the matter and identified what is wrong with it.	All of that is real "nail on head" stuff from Corbyn. Got to the crux of the matter and identified what is wrong with it.
If only he was a bit more camera-friendly.	If only he was a bit more camera-friendly.
Well done to Corbyn for attacking Farage and his supporters so directly - shame we didn't see more of this from him throughout the campaign, rather than the endless anodyne waffling about workers' rights, but at least he's seizing the moment now.	Well done to Corbyn for attacking Farage and his supporters so directly - shame we didn't see more of this from him throughout the campaign, rather than the endless anodyne waffling about workers' rights, but at least he's seizing the moment now.
After Corbyn’s speech, some of you wondered whether the remain campaign might be missing a trick. He had said “Labour has had a problem with the media being focused on the problems in the Conservative party”.	After Corbyn’s speech, some of you wondered whether the remain campaign might be missing a trick. He had said “Labour has had a problem with the media being focused on the problems in the Conservative party”.
I get, to an extent, why Corbyn and Cameron don't want to share a campaigning platform. But Remain is the big loser for that. Combine Corbyn's intelligence, and ability to simplify an argument, with Cameron's passionate framing of the discussion and you'd have a pretty heavy debating tool.	I get, to an extent, why Corbyn and Cameron don't want to share a campaigning platform. But Remain is the big loser for that. Combine Corbyn's intelligence, and ability to simplify an argument, with Cameron's passionate framing of the discussion and you'd have a pretty heavy debating tool.
Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party look like emerging from the referendum campaign with an enhanced reputation.He has led from the front, steadfastly and consistently refusing the call to jump upon the 'but something must be done' immigration bandwagon and has refused to join in the scaremongering.He has held firm and has told the truth.Fair play to him!!The lack of planning and the lack of investment in infrasucture is the responsibility of government and will not be helped by leaving the EU.	Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party look like emerging from the referendum campaign with an enhanced reputation.He has led from the front, steadfastly and consistently refusing the call to jump upon the 'but something must be done' immigration bandwagon and has refused to join in the scaremongering.He has held firm and has told the truth.Fair play to him!!The lack of planning and the lack of investment in infrasucture is the responsibility of government and will not be helped by leaving the EU.
Corbyn looked to the future, and impressed many of you.	Corbyn looked to the future, and impressed many of you.
Great stuff from Corbyn. However I fear he is stepping in too late. So far his position has been pretty ambiguous but in the last week he comes up fully in support of Remain with solid arguments in contrast to Cameron's Campaign Fear... maybe he's had a slight change of heart? Hope he keeps busy for the last two day to reach as many people as possible!	Great stuff from Corbyn. However I fear he is stepping in too late. So far his position has been pretty ambiguous but in the last week he comes up fully in support of Remain with solid arguments in contrast to Cameron's Campaign Fear... maybe he's had a slight change of heart? Hope he keeps busy for the last two day to reach as many people as possible!
Corbyn focusing quite rightly on the prospect of a Tory Brexit. He is realistic enough to know that the Tory government, for all its divisions, will not collapse in the wake of Brexit.	Corbyn focusing quite rightly on the prospect of a Tory Brexit. He is realistic enough to know that the Tory government, for all its divisions, will not collapse in the wake of Brexit.
He probably realises too that neither he, nor any other potential Labour leader waiting in the wings for that matter, will beat the Tories in 2020, especially if by then Scotland has said bye bye.	He probably realises too that neither he, nor any other potential Labour leader waiting in the wings for that matter, will beat the Tories in 2020, especially if by then Scotland has said bye bye.
Totally correct to demand to know which employment and social protections Priti Patel, Johnson and their business backers are so desperate to get rid of.	Totally correct to demand to know which employment and social protections Priti Patel, Johnson and their business backers are so desperate to get rid of.
Join the debate here.	Join the debate here.
2. Should you trust the pollsters or the bookies on the EU referendum?	2. Should you trust the pollsters or the bookies on the EU referendum?
The only thing pollsters seem to agree on is that the vote is going to be close, but this piece examines the reasons bookmakers seem a little more sure of things. There are a few nifty graphs showing spread betting predictions were more accurate than polling in the 2015 general election, and a discussion of a study which found today’s voters are more open to changing their minds than at any point in the last 35 years.	The only thing pollsters seem to agree on is that the vote is going to be close, but this piece examines the reasons bookmakers seem a little more sure of things. There are a few nifty graphs showing spread betting predictions were more accurate than polling in the 2015 general election, and a discussion of a study which found today’s voters are more open to changing their minds than at any point in the last 35 years.
how many poor bookies do you know? they have to be right and they have to be able to stack the odds effectively. or they're out of business. so they use methods not appreciated by pollsters, like bayesian probability and taking money. pollsters must rely on belief, the belief that they are being told the truth. although pollsters have to put their money where their mouths are, the people they phone up don't. bookies, by definition, hendge their bets, it's their punters who have to put their money where their mouths are, and so are automatically more trustworthy as a result.	how many poor bookies do you know? they have to be right and they have to be able to stack the odds effectively. or they're out of business. so they use methods not appreciated by pollsters, like bayesian probability and taking money. pollsters must rely on belief, the belief that they are being told the truth. although pollsters have to put their money where their mouths are, the people they phone up don't. bookies, by definition, hendge their bets, it's their punters who have to put their money where their mouths are, and so are automatically more trustworthy as a result.
Your discussions focused on polling methodology, but also manipulation of figures to suit different campaigns before voters even get the chance to make their minds up.	Your discussions focused on polling methodology, but also manipulation of figures to suit different campaigns before voters even get the chance to make their minds up.
CAREFUL: The polls and the betting markets are measuring different things. The polls are prediction of ONE voting outcome, a single snapshot. The betting markets however give you a likelihood of in/out by looking at ALL voting outcomes, a whole range of snapshots. The betting market then assigns probabilities to each outcome and gives you an overall probability for in/out.	CAREFUL: The polls and the betting markets are measuring different things. The polls are prediction of ONE voting outcome, a single snapshot. The betting markets however give you a likelihood of in/out by looking at ALL voting outcomes, a whole range of snapshots. The betting market then assigns probabilities to each outcome and gives you an overall probability for in/out.
It can be entirely consistent that the polls says 49/51 and the betting market says 30% leave and 70% remain.	It can be entirely consistent that the polls says 49/51 and the betting market says 30% leave and 70% remain.
The Brexiteers are extremely vocal and at times irrationally evangelical in their campaigning whereas Bremainers are more reserved. The result on Thursday could reflect this as it did in the Scottish referendum.	The Brexiteers are extremely vocal and at times irrationally evangelical in their campaigning whereas Bremainers are more reserved. The result on Thursday could reflect this as it did in the Scottish referendum.
The irony is of course that the lower paid and less qualified/educated Brexiteers who are keenest to brexit will suffer most from the UK exiting the EU particularly in the first 3-4 years which will be disastrous. The millionaire establishment leaders of the Leave campaign will -as always- escape unscathed.	The irony is of course that the lower paid and less qualified/educated Brexiteers who are keenest to brexit will suffer most from the UK exiting the EU particularly in the first 3-4 years which will be disastrous. The millionaire establishment leaders of the Leave campaign will -as always- escape unscathed.
You can click the links on any of these comments to join the conversations.	You can click the links on any of these comments to join the conversations.
The problem with this referendum is it that Brexit can be manipulated to any agenda. I doubt Leave will win, but if they did, the options of how to move forward, how to control immigration, etc, are so varied, and Brexiters are not united in what they want other than to leave.	The problem with this referendum is it that Brexit can be manipulated to any agenda. I doubt Leave will win, but if they did, the options of how to move forward, how to control immigration, etc, are so varied, and Brexiters are not united in what they want other than to leave.
Say Leave wins, and the only trade agreement we can get is the same as Norway and Switzerland (and some comments on here have cited these countries as good examples), complying with regulations, free movement and still paying to be in, people will probably want another referendum on whether to accept that. As we have seen these are not things that will be sorted out by elections, as this is a cross-party issue.	Say Leave wins, and the only trade agreement we can get is the same as Norway and Switzerland (and some comments on here have cited these countries as good examples), complying with regulations, free movement and still paying to be in, people will probably want another referendum on whether to accept that. As we have seen these are not things that will be sorted out by elections, as this is a cross-party issue.
We have it drummed into us not to sign something unless we read it properly, so being asked to vote on something with an unknown outcome seems bizarre to me. Referendums are for gay marriage, peace agreements, gun control, a clearly defined yes or no that can't be hijacked and made to fit a cause.	We have it drummed into us not to sign something unless we read it properly, so being asked to vote on something with an unknown outcome seems bizarre to me. Referendums are for gay marriage, peace agreements, gun control, a clearly defined yes or no that can't be hijacked and made to fit a cause.
Stop trying to guess the result !	Stop trying to guess the result !
it's toxic, in many ways:	it's toxic, in many ways:
- If one side is way ahead of the other, voters don't vote. Upsets happen.- People and media turnt he election into a race: Who's ahead, who's behind.- Rational discussion of the issues is lost.	- If one side is way ahead of the other, voters don't vote. Upsets happen.- People and media turnt he election into a race: Who's ahead, who's behind.- Rational discussion of the issues is lost.
These, and others, are recognised problems. That's why polling is banned shortly before most elections.	These, and others, are recognised problems. That's why polling is banned shortly before most elections.
The gruardian and media more generally could do its bit by stopping this toxic discussion on who's ahead and what we think is going to happen.	The gruardian and media more generally could do its bit by stopping this toxic discussion on who's ahead and what we think is going to happen.