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You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out-live-debate

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Version 3 Version 4
EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate
(35 minutes later)
1.08pm BST
13:08
Sarah Marsh
One commenter from our anonymous form lays down their argument for remain:
I was an early “economic migrant” after the banking crisis hit the UK. Having failed for several months to find a job in England, I left to search for work in Belgium. I’ve since been in full-time employment, am happily settled. I now hope to start a family soon. Freedom of movement has benefited me greatly, and others should benefit from it too. Brexit threatens that, and would be a massive step backwards in terms of progress and quality of life for UK citizens. I simply cannot believe that Brexiteers, who claim to be against bureaurcracy, want to put in place a migration system that would itself be a massive bureaucracy! What a waste of time and money.
Brexit wouldn’t help my career prospects – though the long negotiations that would take place after Brexit mean I’m not too concerned about it. After all, there are more important things than my job. Even though I had my own set of prejudices about the European institutions before coming to work in Brussels, I now know that most of the EU civil servants aren’t faceless bureaucrats - they are people, most of whom want to see the rule of law, fairness, a decent single market, good environmental regulations and protection of social rights upheld and improved.
I’m married to a lovely woman from another member state. Not only does Brexit threaten our current living arrangements, it could also lead to difficult choices in the future: could my wife and I and any future children stay together and live here, or in the UK, or her country, after Brexit? There are many UK nationals in my position, and I hear that many are applying for Belgian nationality. But I’m not Belgian, I’m English first, British second, and European third, so will proudly keep my UK passport and nationality, even if the country goes in a direction that seems absurd, ill-informed, and chauvinistic.
I can only hope that the remain side wins, and that the discussion about the advantages of EU membership, which has been nearly absent in UK discourse for 25 years, continues after this awful referendum.
1.04pm BST
13:04
James Walsh
Here is a Cornish businessman on why he is planning to vote Leave on Thursday. Both sides have claimed to represent the SME constituency, while polling suggests small businesses are evenly split on Brexit.
I am an owner of a medium sized manufacturer employing 50 people and primarily operating within the automotive supply chain. As such, according to Remain, I should be selfishly concerned that my business will suffer if we lose free access to the EU market.
I do have some selfish concerns that the UK might become considered a less favourable manufacturing location in the very short term. However I believe this risk is overstated given the huge trade surplus the EU has over the UK and if any tariff-induced decline in UK exports to the EU were to occur, that would be more than offset by a much greater improvement in the UK domestic supply market as a result of the tariffs then applying on EU sourced imports.
Remain’s nonsense examples of the years it takes the EU to negotiate trade deals with other countries as an example of how long it would take the UK to agree such deals has convinced me that the UK will trade much better with the world outside the EU after leaving. It clearly takes the EU so long because it has 28 members to get to agree. Biggest is not best when agreeing trade deals if you never get to conclude the deal because you cannot reconcile your own side’s conflicting interests let alone reach agreement with the third party.
Updated
at 1.08pm BST
12.54pm BST
12:54
'It is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum'
James Walsh
We’ve been hearing from 16 and 17 year old would-be voters. You need to be 18 to vote on Thursday, unlike in 2014’s Scottish independence referendum. Labour peers made an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to expand the franchise ahead of the EU vote.
I am unable to vote at 16 years old, however it is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum either way. Much of my generation are in the Remain camp - myself included - and I think that any members of the elder generations with our best intentions would be too. The freedom to work and study in the EU is vital to our success in the global marketplace. The profits the EU makes us - reported to be £10 for every £1 we pay in - are undeniable and the changes put into place by David Cameron I believe will curb the amount of migrants we receive. It is preposterous that the Leave camp have tried to deny this while, at the same time, promoting a system which we know will only work to increase migration numbers.
I would like to ask the voters, whether they are Remain, Leave or undecided one thing: please, tomorrow, do not vote because of your favourite politician. Form your own view whilst looking at the facts. The amount of people who tell me that they are voting Leave “because Boris” is just ridiculous. Being a London citizen, I can fully attest that that way evil lies.
Updated
at 12.55pm BST
12.35pm BST
12:35
Sarah Marsh
Interesting comment here on how undemocratic the EU is. Would love to hear comments in response to this below the line
The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy.
Labour legend Tony Benn-"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected."
12.33pm BST12.33pm BST
12:3312:33
Jeremy Clarkson on why him and James May are remainJeremy Clarkson on why him and James May are remain
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
12.27pm BST12.27pm BST
12:2712:27
'Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny''Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny'
James WalshJames Walsh
Also from the form, we have a Leave supporter, who lives and works in Denmark. The British EU referendum will be watched with great interest by the Danes, whose relationship with the EU is similar to the UK’s in that it is pretty spiky. A Brexit would likely lead to calls for a referendum on aspects of Denmark’s own membership.Also from the form, we have a Leave supporter, who lives and works in Denmark. The British EU referendum will be watched with great interest by the Danes, whose relationship with the EU is similar to the UK’s in that it is pretty spiky. A Brexit would likely lead to calls for a referendum on aspects of Denmark’s own membership.
I’m British but have lived in Denmark for many years. Personally, I haven’t noticed a negative, or positive, economic impact from living within the EU. My decision how to vote is based on how I see the UK developing in the future and how much I want that development to be within the confines of the EU.I’m British but have lived in Denmark for many years. Personally, I haven’t noticed a negative, or positive, economic impact from living within the EU. My decision how to vote is based on how I see the UK developing in the future and how much I want that development to be within the confines of the EU.
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to release ourselves from the overbearing interference of the EU. I feel it is a matter of time before another member country has a near economic collapse akin to Greece threatening the financial stability of the EU and thus the UK. Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny and not at the mercy of others.This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to release ourselves from the overbearing interference of the EU. I feel it is a matter of time before another member country has a near economic collapse akin to Greece threatening the financial stability of the EU and thus the UK. Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny and not at the mercy of others.
Related: Would Brexit trigger a domino effect in Europe?Related: Would Brexit trigger a domino effect in Europe?
UpdatedUpdated
at 12.29pm BSTat 12.29pm BST
12.16pm BST12.16pm BST
12:1612:16
James WalshJames Walsh
Afternoon everyone.Afternoon everyone.
Remember that as well as posting in the comments, you’re able to contribute anonymously (or otherwise) by filling out the form at the foot of the live blog.Remember that as well as posting in the comments, you’re able to contribute anonymously (or otherwise) by filling out the form at the foot of the live blog.
Here is a view from a retired gentleman in Somerset, who is voting - grudgingly - to Remain.Here is a view from a retired gentleman in Somerset, who is voting - grudgingly - to Remain.
I’m in, despite the ominous sound of deals like TTIP and unfair distribution of wealth (like farm subsidies) for rich land owners with there grouse moors.I’m in, despite the ominous sound of deals like TTIP and unfair distribution of wealth (like farm subsidies) for rich land owners with there grouse moors.
I do not trust the the Brexiteers with the well being of this country, workers’ rights, conservation, pollution, and immigration.I do not trust the the Brexiteers with the well being of this country, workers’ rights, conservation, pollution, and immigration.
We need to work for a better Europe together. We are no longer an empire thank god! As many people have already said so much hate lies and vitriol have surfaced in this debate provoking some to extreme acts. Whatever the outcome a little more tolerance wouldn’t go amiss.We need to work for a better Europe together. We are no longer an empire thank god! As many people have already said so much hate lies and vitriol have surfaced in this debate provoking some to extreme acts. Whatever the outcome a little more tolerance wouldn’t go amiss.
12.12pm BST12.12pm BST
12:1212:12
Ruth DavidsonRuth Davidson
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
Everyone is talking about the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Ruth Davidson after he performance during the BBC’s EU debate last night. What did you think about her? How did you rate the other panel members’ performances? Did anyone else sway you?Everyone is talking about the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Ruth Davidson after he performance during the BBC’s EU debate last night. What did you think about her? How did you rate the other panel members’ performances? Did anyone else sway you?
I worry that my @RuthDavidsonMSP fandom may be swaying me unduly, but she does seem by miles the best in the #BBCDebateI worry that my @RuthDavidsonMSP fandom may be swaying me unduly, but she does seem by miles the best in the #BBCDebate
Who won the #BBCdebate ? That's easy. Ruth Davidson.Who won the #BBCdebate ? That's easy. Ruth Davidson.
UpdatedUpdated
at 12.25pm BSTat 12.25pm BST
12.06pm BST12.06pm BST
12:0612:06
I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendumI remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum
Gary YoungeGary Younge
A couple weeks ago I described the EU referendum as being like “choosing a ditch to die in”. Worn down by the sanctimony of the remain campaign I felt that they were dismissive of real issues regarding sovereignty and the democratic deficit that was driving some people to leave. That said, I was going to vote remain because I prefer the ditch with labour protections, free movement of people and the European court of justice. A couple weeks on and I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum. The poison that Nigel Farage and the Tory right have poured in to the issue has stiffened my resolve to vote remain for the simple reason that if leave wins it will strengthen the hard right in England. That strength will become even greater as a result of Scotland leaving the UK, which it will almost certainly do if the UK as a whole votes to leave. Their ditch is beginning to give off the kind of foul odour that will take years to wash off, whatever the result.A couple weeks ago I described the EU referendum as being like “choosing a ditch to die in”. Worn down by the sanctimony of the remain campaign I felt that they were dismissive of real issues regarding sovereignty and the democratic deficit that was driving some people to leave. That said, I was going to vote remain because I prefer the ditch with labour protections, free movement of people and the European court of justice. A couple weeks on and I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum. The poison that Nigel Farage and the Tory right have poured in to the issue has stiffened my resolve to vote remain for the simple reason that if leave wins it will strengthen the hard right in England. That strength will become even greater as a result of Scotland leaving the UK, which it will almost certainly do if the UK as a whole votes to leave. Their ditch is beginning to give off the kind of foul odour that will take years to wash off, whatever the result.
11.55am BST11.55am BST
11:5511:55
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
Who has shaped your opinion? Friends or politiciansWho has shaped your opinion? Friends or politicians
Related: Friends v politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendumRelated: Friends v politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendum
This article above looks at how social media is playing an important role in word-of-mouth advocacy and getting people to engage in the vote. It raises some interesting points. Would be really interested to hear in the comments about whether people have been more convinced than viral posts compared to the words of politicians on this subject?This article above looks at how social media is playing an important role in word-of-mouth advocacy and getting people to engage in the vote. It raises some interesting points. Would be really interested to hear in the comments about whether people have been more convinced than viral posts compared to the words of politicians on this subject?
11.55am BST11.55am BST
11:5511:55
We will be starting the debate in 5 minutes, hope everyone is looking forward to it. Lots of food for thought below.We will be starting the debate in 5 minutes, hope everyone is looking forward to it. Lots of food for thought below.
11.44am BST
11:44
The nasty anti-immigration rhetoric has been damaging
Toby Moses
If I was ever tempted by a vote to leave then the interminable months of campaigning have solidified my position in the Remain camp. The idea of voting with Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Britain First was always going to be hard sell to anyone of a leftwing persuasion – but the nasty anti-immigration rhetoric has been not just alienating, but incredibly damaging for the future of this country’s democracy. In or out of the EU – the country will be riven by the divides the leave campaign have drawn.
The fatuous lie that 76 million Turks are just waiting to flood our shores was both insulting and patently false, the emphasis so often on people’s worst instincts and “fear of the other” rather than focusing on the legitimate concerns about the way mass immigration might depress wages or put pressure on public services. Those voices were there, somewhere, but they were drowned out by the incessant far-right ranting that now looks set to be the default setting for many politicians seeking an easy win.
The nadir was an episode of Question Time where Ed Miliband asked the perfectly reasonable question of what the Brexiteers – David Davis in this case – would like our relationship with the EU to look like in light of an out vote. Did Davis, an often thoughtful and respectful voice on the right, engage with this question? No, of course not. He resorted to base patriotism – we, being so special, would have an entirely unique relationship with the EU, unlike that enjoyed by any other country. It would be a relationship suitable for “Great Britain” – unnecessary emphasis on the “Great” of course. The audience whooped. And so the question of what Britain’s economic future outside the EU would look like remains unanswered – I just hope voters don’t take a jump into the unknown and decide to remain part of this imperfect, but probably preferable, Union.
11.41am BST
11:41
The referendum is not a vote on EU membership any more: it’s a vote on immigration
Dawn Foster
I voted by post last week: I didn’t pause before signing a cross to remain in the EU. Months ago I might have considered workers’ rights, maternity rights, free movement, economic benefits, but quickly the mood changed and so did my focus. The referendum is not a vote on EU membership any more: it’s a vote on immigration, simply. The campaign has allowed racist sentiments to be broadcast without challenge, cast as “legitimate concerns” rather than interrogated further. The working class have been cast as homogeneously racist, whereas middle-class Brexiters are treated as complex and nuanced in their arrival at the same political position. I grew up poor, I move in different circles now: there are plenty of working-class people who aren’t racist (commentators seem to forget the working class are not all white, and many are migrants) just as there are plenty of racist wealthy people: they simply express these sentiments differently.
My friends have already experienced the psychological and physical violence of the immigration system. They’ve fought to be here, with friends and partners, and now they’re told they’re not welcome, they’re hated, many would happily deport them. On Christmas Eve I ended up crying in the street in relief that a friend’s partner had been allowed into the country, but also rage that he’d previously been detained by immigration and we didn’t think he’d make it through the border to spend a few days with the man he loves. Our country is richer for the difference immigration brings: I voted for a tolerant, not fearful society.
11.39am BST
11:39
Sarah Marsh
We have heard a lot of interesting views from several writers on this topic now. In just 20 minutes you will be able to have your say below the line. I will be posting some interesting questions/ thoughts to help fuel debate further in the new few minutes.
11.34am BST
11:34
It’s the positive things about Europe that persuade me the most
Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett
I’m voting to remain. There was only ever a tiny seed of doubt – the only leftwing Brexit argument that almost swayed me was by Janice Turner in the Times, but ultimately the Brexit camp’s economic arguments have failed to convince. All the experts are on the remain side. The dog-whistle racism and prejudice of much of the anti-immigrant rhetoric has felt not only deeply unpleasant but has made me look at this country through new eyes, and I haven’t really liked what I have seen at all.
Studying the history of both wars and the postwar period, as well as hearing my grandparents’ vivid recollections of the war, mean I’m well aware of why the EU was set up in the first place: for peace. Moreover, I feel European; I have lived in France and Italy, did Erasmus, have friends from all over Europe, and speak four European languages (including Welsh – and Wales is no doubt better in than out). As I have written, I think leaving the EU would be terrible for young people, do not trust Michael Gove or Boris Johnson to do right by any of us, and think Nigel Farage’s messages have disturbingly fascist undertones. But it’s the positive things about Europe that persuade me the most; the privilege of being able to share so much with other people. And a whole continent at our feet; we’d be mad to give it up.
11.32am BST
11:32
People who think Brexit is a magic bullet are being sold a lie
Abi Wilkinson
I have no great love for the EU. Witnessing the impoverishment, humiliation and privatisation pushed on the Greek people in the name of austerity fuelled my antipathy. What’s more, it’s clear to me that as long as the UK remains a part of the EU my most ambitious political goals are probably unachievable. Despite of all of this, however, I’m voting to remain. Not because I’m optimistic about the possibility of significantly reforming the EU as an institution, but because the alternative offered at this juncture is worse.
For a large proportion of voters, this is a referendum on immigration. For many of those leading the campaign, it’s an opportunity to accrue personal power while chasing a sort of nostalgic, imperialist dream of Britain’s proper place in the world. Ordinary people who believe that Brexit would be a magic bullet solution to their problems are being sold a lie. Workers at the lower end of the labour market will not see significant improvements in their working conditions and pay. If the much-maligned experts are correct, unemployment will rise as a result of the DIY recession we risk inflicting on ourselves. Certainly, I do not trust figures like Boris Johnson to protect labour rights without the force of EU legislation.
There’s nothing very inspiring about voting for the lesser of two evils, but the situation is what it is.
Updated
at 11.32am BST
11.01am BST
11:01
To leave would be an act of extraordinary self-sabotage
Rafael Behr
There are reasons to be frustrated with the way the EU works but they don’t justify quitting the project. There is no scenario, no crisis in Europe where it is feasible to imagine a British prime minister wishing himself excluded from the one available forum in which nearly every other continental leader is gathered to deal with the problem. To volunteer for that exclusion would be an act of extraordinary national self-sabotage. But it would also be a kind of strategic vandalism, emboldening the forces of nationalism and demagoguery across the world who would like nothing more than to see the EU fail. And that was all true before a campaign of breathtaking cynical mendacity by the Brexit camp, wilfully stirring up resentment, suspicion and xenophobia while offering no credible remedy to the problems they gleefully exploit. To avoid the empowerment of that tendency in British politics is reason enough to vote remain. But I’ll be supporting the UK’s EU membership not just to thwart the axis of Farage-Johnson-Gove but because I believe in the principle of peaceful trade and diplomatic collaboration among democratic nations on a continent that has for most of recorded history, been marked by war. The EU is a force for good in the world. It was not said often enough before this referendum; it has not been said often enough in the campaign.
10.53am BST
10:53
Sarah Marsh
Just updated the live blog with two quite contrasting views (below) on this question. So, have you made up your mind yet? Join us today from 12pm-2pm to discuss your stance and follow the blog now as we share more opinions from different writers.
10.53am BST
10:53
There is no good possible outcome
Martin Williams
Whatever the result, leftwingers should be gloomy. We have allowed the right to hijack this referendum and set the terms – on both sides of the debate. There is no good possible outcome.
Despite the impression given by sneering faux-liberals, the EU embodies everything the left normally claims to be against. There is nothing progressive about an anti-democratic institution led by a crazed free-market capitalist who preaches austerity. On this issue, unlike any other, many supposed lefties seem happy to share a hymnbook with banks and big business; cheering the EU’s undemocratic, exploitative system with macroeconomic excuses. How depressing that praising this monstrous beast could be considered the “progressive” argument.
Yet fear of the alternative is quite rational. If we leave, it will be a different kind of victory for rightwingers. We will hand the Tories a free pass to further tear up the country, without even the shackles of Europe to hold them back. It will be hell on earth. So there are two questions for the left: which flavour of rightwinger scares you most? And would you prefer your austerity to be imposed by a European technocracy, or by your very own elected asset-strippers?
10.51am BST
10:51
Mona Chalabi
I was a benefit tourist once. When I was 21, I had dragged myself through two miserable years of my undergraduate degree in Scotland and wasn’t sure if I could make it through the two years that loomed ahead of me. Insomnia would strangle me at night as I’d relentlessly tossed and turned over my options – drop out (the lost money, the shame, the effect on my career) or stay (and risk my mental health).
Then one afternoon, a lecturer told a room full of sleepy students about the Erasmus programme and I found out there was another option. As a student in an EU member state, I could apply to study abroad in another EU member state. If that weren’t already a miracle wrapped in gold swaddled in silk, I found out that the European university would cover most of my tuition fees and the country’s government would give me a monthly allowance to contribute towards my living expenses.
I applied, was accepted and moved to France. Like many of the migrants who are the subjects of tabloid wrath today, I could barely manage a sentence of the language when I first arrived – the French government didn’t demand that of me. The government also didn’t demand that I worked, bloody good thing too since I was barely making anything from my part-time job. It seemed all I was required to do was my best – my best to learn, my best to contribute to the society around me and my best to accept its limitations (you’d be hard pushed to find a migrant that would criticise their new home as much as those who were born there even though both see the flaws).
One year turned into three. As I learned how to string together French words, I found a new voice for myself, new friends and a new home that felt surprisingly, well, homely. As a typically self-centred Londoner, when I moved to Edinburgh I had been surprised to find out just how different other parts of the UK could be. EU member states are also different from one another, but being a citizen of something bigger gave me so many more places I could fit in. I will always be British, but it’s also possible to be from east London and feel more at home in the north of Paris than in Skegness.
I’m not the only benefit tourist. In the 2013-14 academic year, 272,497 students went to another European country to study or train. But I’m disappointed that only 15,610 of them came from the UK. Part of the reason why we’re so ready to see the costs of membership to the EU is that we haven’t made full use of the benefits of that membership.
10.33am BST
10:33
Welcome to our debate
Sarah Marsh
Have you made up your mind yet? If not, then now’s the time to decide as there’s just one day left before Britain goes to the polls.
The in camp, which includes prime minister David Cameron and London’s mayor Sadiq Khan, have made their cases. Those keen for us to stay cite economic and cultural arguments, among other things.
Cameron, in particular, has hammered home that Britain is the hub for several industries in Europe which would be economically affected by an out vote. “I think there would be less opportunity, there would be less growth and excitement, less fizz about Britain’s creative and entrepreneurial place in the world,” he said yesterday.
He added that Brexit could reverse progress on equality. “There are still opportunities that are blocked, and glass ceilings we need to smash through, but I think it would be a step back from that because we would be reducing our opportunities.”
On the other side, those in the out camp – including former London mayor Boris Johnson and (perhaps alarmingly) US Republican nominee Donald Trump – have talked about democracy and sovereignty. Those in favour of leaving claim that Britain needs to make choices about its own future without being held back by bureaucrats in Brussels.
Immigration has also been central for Leave campaigners, with Ukip’s leader Nigel Farage and Conservative MP for Surrey Heath, Michael Gove, arguing that Britain must take back control of its borders. The message here was that Cameron could not be trusted on immigration, with the Ukip leader posing in front of a controversial poster warning of the supposed implications of a Remain vote.
Farage said: “The European Union is a disastrous, failed project and the poster reflected that.
“One of the biggest moments of this referendum campaign has been the revelation from the prime minister’s former right-hand man that David Cameron knew years ago that his tens of thousands net migration pledge was impossible inside the EU, yet refuses to admit it.”
So, have you made up your mind yet? Join us today from 12pm-2pm to discuss your stance. Tell us where you stand and why.
You can also tell us about how your economic situation affects this. How would a Brexit personally affect you and your finances? Is this a major factor in your final decision? You can tell us about this anonymously via our form.
Updated
at 10.38am BST