This article is from the source 'nytimes' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/us/politics/men-say-trumps-remarks-on-sex-and-women-are-beyond-the-pale.html
The article has changed 3 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 0 | Version 1 |
|---|---|
| Men Say Trump’s Remarks on Sex and Women Are Beyond the Pale | Men Say Trump’s Remarks on Sex and Women Are Beyond the Pale |
| (about 11 hours later) | |
| That (some) men talk crudely (sometimes) about sex and women’s anatomies comes as news to few people who have gone through puberty. | That (some) men talk crudely (sometimes) about sex and women’s anatomies comes as news to few people who have gone through puberty. |
| But the graphic talk by Donald J. Trump — including boasts about groping women — that was revealed on Friday in a video recorded in 2005 is something else, according to men of different ethnic, racial, economic and religious backgrounds, from different parts of the country. | But the graphic talk by Donald J. Trump — including boasts about groping women — that was revealed on Friday in a video recorded in 2005 is something else, according to men of different ethnic, racial, economic and religious backgrounds, from different parts of the country. |
| In interviews on Saturday, they differed on how often men talk graphically about women in terms of sexual conquest or desired body parts, from those who said they had never heard it to some who considered it fairly common. But they agreed that Mr. Trump’s 11-year-old comments went well beyond what they were used to hearing. | |
| “I’ve been around a lot of very religious people who, especially like my father, who would never talk like that,” said Douglas E. Lowe, an East Texas Republican who expressed dismay at the recording but said he still planned to vote for Mr. Trump. He said he doubted that was how the men who go to his Baptist church would talk. | “I’ve been around a lot of very religious people who, especially like my father, who would never talk like that,” said Douglas E. Lowe, an East Texas Republican who expressed dismay at the recording but said he still planned to vote for Mr. Trump. He said he doubted that was how the men who go to his Baptist church would talk. |
| Some men use crude language — “then again, women do, too” — said Mr. Lowe, 63, a lawyer and former district attorney. But he said of Mr. Trump: “I don’t think he gets a pass. It kind of shows his character.” | Some men use crude language — “then again, women do, too” — said Mr. Lowe, 63, a lawyer and former district attorney. But he said of Mr. Trump: “I don’t think he gets a pass. It kind of shows his character.” |
| Remarco Lewis, 32, who works at a concession stand at Wrigley Field in Chicago, said it was not uncommon to hear men use graphic language about women, even “just walking down the street.” | Remarco Lewis, 32, who works at a concession stand at Wrigley Field in Chicago, said it was not uncommon to hear men use graphic language about women, even “just walking down the street.” |
| Dick DeGuerin, a prominent Houston lawyer, said he is no stranger to hearing — and even using — graphic talk about sex. | Dick DeGuerin, a prominent Houston lawyer, said he is no stranger to hearing — and even using — graphic talk about sex. |
| But he said, “Nobody with any couth whatsoever walks up to a woman” and does what Mr. Trump described. Men “might talk about beautiful women in a way that’s like, ‘Golly, that gal is really gorgeous’ or ‘I’d like to get in her pants’ or something like that.” | But he said, “Nobody with any couth whatsoever walks up to a woman” and does what Mr. Trump described. Men “might talk about beautiful women in a way that’s like, ‘Golly, that gal is really gorgeous’ or ‘I’d like to get in her pants’ or something like that.” |
| Mr. DeGuerin, 75, who is married and has four daughters, said it was unusual for professional men of his and the 70-year-old Mr. Trump’s generation to talk in the way that Mr. Trump did about forcing himself upon women. | Mr. DeGuerin, 75, who is married and has four daughters, said it was unusual for professional men of his and the 70-year-old Mr. Trump’s generation to talk in the way that Mr. Trump did about forcing himself upon women. |
| “It’s crude. And it’s not normal,” he said. | “It’s crude. And it’s not normal,” he said. |
| “If I caught someone talking about my daughter the way he was talking about these girls … I think I’d go to Fist City with him,” Mr. DeGuerin added. | “If I caught someone talking about my daughter the way he was talking about these girls … I think I’d go to Fist City with him,” Mr. DeGuerin added. |
| Many of the other men drew a line at lewd descriptions of women and Mr. Trump’s boasts about unwanted touching. | Many of the other men drew a line at lewd descriptions of women and Mr. Trump’s boasts about unwanted touching. |
| “What’s unusual is not how he talked about women like they’re objects or conquests; we all know there are men who talk like that, even if it’s not most men,” said Michael Kimmel, a sociology professor at Stony Brook University who has written several books on men, sex and masculinity. “It’s his own behavior that he himself describes, and the confidence he has that he can act on it with impunity — that’s what’s rare.” | “What’s unusual is not how he talked about women like they’re objects or conquests; we all know there are men who talk like that, even if it’s not most men,” said Michael Kimmel, a sociology professor at Stony Brook University who has written several books on men, sex and masculinity. “It’s his own behavior that he himself describes, and the confidence he has that he can act on it with impunity — that’s what’s rare.” |
| The other striking aspect, he said, is that Mr. Trump was 59 when the recording was made. | The other striking aspect, he said, is that Mr. Trump was 59 when the recording was made. |
| “This frat house stuff, Army stuff,” he said. “You might hear athletes and entertainers, these highly entitled people, talk like this, but most guys age out of it. The relationships they develop with real, live women mitigate against it.” | “This frat house stuff, Army stuff,” he said. “You might hear athletes and entertainers, these highly entitled people, talk like this, but most guys age out of it. The relationships they develop with real, live women mitigate against it.” |
| The Rev. Corey Brooks, an African-American pastor, is a rare Republican on Chicago’s South Side. He said he was leaning toward voting for Mr. Trump until he saw the video and his 26-year-old daughter confronted him about it. | The Rev. Corey Brooks, an African-American pastor, is a rare Republican on Chicago’s South Side. He said he was leaning toward voting for Mr. Trump until he saw the video and his 26-year-old daughter confronted him about it. |
| “Now that he’s made those comments, it’s kind of the nail in the coffin for me,” said Mr. Brooks, 47. “To hear my daughter, who is not a politically savvy person, to say that she felt disrespected as a woman, I can only imagine how other women are feeling.” | “Now that he’s made those comments, it’s kind of the nail in the coffin for me,” said Mr. Brooks, 47. “To hear my daughter, who is not a politically savvy person, to say that she felt disrespected as a woman, I can only imagine how other women are feeling.” |
| Many men took umbrage at Mr. Trump over the apology video he released early Saturday in which he described the 2005 recording as “locker room banter.” In fact, the hashtag #LockerRoomBanter quickly rose on social media. | Many men took umbrage at Mr. Trump over the apology video he released early Saturday in which he described the 2005 recording as “locker room banter.” In fact, the hashtag #LockerRoomBanter quickly rose on social media. |
| “I’ve never heard that kind of locker room talk,” said Brian Farrell, 39, a writer and actor who lives in Burbank, Calif. “The worst locker room talk I’ve heard is: ‘Oh, she’s really hot, I’d like to have sex with her.’ Or whatever.” | “I’ve never heard that kind of locker room talk,” said Brian Farrell, 39, a writer and actor who lives in Burbank, Calif. “The worst locker room talk I’ve heard is: ‘Oh, she’s really hot, I’d like to have sex with her.’ Or whatever.” |
| “I’m totally embarrassed that this is what a lot of people view straight white males as,” he said. | “I’m totally embarrassed that this is what a lot of people view straight white males as,” he said. |
| Larry McMurtry, a Pulitzer-Prize-winning writer whose work often depicts gruff men of the mythic American West, said it was not unusual for some men to talk the way Mr. Trump did. | Larry McMurtry, a Pulitzer-Prize-winning writer whose work often depicts gruff men of the mythic American West, said it was not unusual for some men to talk the way Mr. Trump did. |
| “That’s just the way certain men talk,” he said. “Wherever there’s guys that are mostly working-class guys sitting around yakking about seduction, basically.” | “That’s just the way certain men talk,” he said. “Wherever there’s guys that are mostly working-class guys sitting around yakking about seduction, basically.” |
| “The only difference between them and Donald is that he dresses better,” said Mr. McMurtry, 80. “It just speaks to the class of men who were talking, which is a low class.” | “The only difference between them and Donald is that he dresses better,” said Mr. McMurtry, 80. “It just speaks to the class of men who were talking, which is a low class.” |
| Ed Hirs, 59, managing director of an oil and gas company in Houston, said he knew women, including accomplished professionals, who had been “subjected to straight-up offers, propositions, groping,” but that in his years as a member of Champions Golf Club in that city, he had never heard anything there like what Mr. Trump said in the recording. | Ed Hirs, 59, managing director of an oil and gas company in Houston, said he knew women, including accomplished professionals, who had been “subjected to straight-up offers, propositions, groping,” but that in his years as a member of Champions Golf Club in that city, he had never heard anything there like what Mr. Trump said in the recording. |
| “I don’t know what locker rooms he’s hanging out in, but it’s not mine,” he said. | “I don’t know what locker rooms he’s hanging out in, but it’s not mine,” he said. |
| As he arrived for an N.B.A. preseason game on Saturday, Sean Kilpatrick, a guard with the Nets, said Mr. Trump’s comments strayed well beyond locker room talk. | As he arrived for an N.B.A. preseason game on Saturday, Sean Kilpatrick, a guard with the Nets, said Mr. Trump’s comments strayed well beyond locker room talk. |
| “That’s too much,” Mr. Kilpatrick said. “Especially for what he’s trying to run for now. You don’t want America judging you on something like that.” | “That’s too much,” Mr. Kilpatrick said. “Especially for what he’s trying to run for now. You don’t want America judging you on something like that.” |
| He added, “We kind of get a bad rap and a bad name for it because everyone thinks it’s cool to say, ‘Oh, it’s just locker room talk.’” | He added, “We kind of get a bad rap and a bad name for it because everyone thinks it’s cool to say, ‘Oh, it’s just locker room talk.’” |