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| Anna Soubry: ‘What’s happened to our country? We’ve lost the plot’ Anna Soubry: ‘What’s happened to our country? We’ve lost the plot’ | |
| (30 days later) | |
| “I think,” Anna Soubry begins with an extravagant sigh, “we have to take a big chill pill in all of this, as my daughter would say.” The Conservative MP flops into a chair in her Portcullis House office, which looks out over the Thames. “Everyone’s getting so worked up. We’ve really got to calm down, take a step back, and put our cool heads on.” | “I think,” Anna Soubry begins with an extravagant sigh, “we have to take a big chill pill in all of this, as my daughter would say.” The Conservative MP flops into a chair in her Portcullis House office, which looks out over the Thames. “Everyone’s getting so worked up. We’ve really got to calm down, take a step back, and put our cool heads on.” |
| The following hour feels like being caught in the path of a hurricane. I haven’t been on the receiving end of this sort of sustained thunder since I sat through a sermon by a Jamaican Baptist preacher. “What’s happened to our country? We’ve lost the plot. We’ve lost the ability to be brave and stand up for what we believe in!” Soubry is blisteringly angry about Brexit, and furious with the right, the left, the media, even at one point herself. In the interests of strict accuracy, almost everything she says should be reported in capital letters or italics, and probably both. If this is Soubry’s idea of a chill pill, I would love to meet her after a double espresso. | The following hour feels like being caught in the path of a hurricane. I haven’t been on the receiving end of this sort of sustained thunder since I sat through a sermon by a Jamaican Baptist preacher. “What’s happened to our country? We’ve lost the plot. We’ve lost the ability to be brave and stand up for what we believe in!” Soubry is blisteringly angry about Brexit, and furious with the right, the left, the media, even at one point herself. In the interests of strict accuracy, almost everything she says should be reported in capital letters or italics, and probably both. If this is Soubry’s idea of a chill pill, I would love to meet her after a double espresso. |
| The Nottinghamshire MP began her career as a television presenter, then became a criminal barrister, and was elected to parliament in 2010. A single mother of two, and a passionate supporter of the EU, she served as a junior minister under David Cameron and was very much a part of his detoxification project. “He got rid of the nastiness, and made us electable.” Cameron kept her busy, first as parliamentary undersecretary of state for health, then for defence, and then as a junior minister at the ministry of defence, followed by the department for business. In the summer leadership election, Soubry voted for Theresa May – and remains a supporter of the prime minister – but lost her job in the new government. A lifelong Conservative, the 59-year-old is incensed by what is now happening to her party. And being, as she puts it, “not a proper politician, I say exactly what I think”. | The Nottinghamshire MP began her career as a television presenter, then became a criminal barrister, and was elected to parliament in 2010. A single mother of two, and a passionate supporter of the EU, she served as a junior minister under David Cameron and was very much a part of his detoxification project. “He got rid of the nastiness, and made us electable.” Cameron kept her busy, first as parliamentary undersecretary of state for health, then for defence, and then as a junior minister at the ministry of defence, followed by the department for business. In the summer leadership election, Soubry voted for Theresa May – and remains a supporter of the prime minister – but lost her job in the new government. A lifelong Conservative, the 59-year-old is incensed by what is now happening to her party. And being, as she puts it, “not a proper politician, I say exactly what I think”. |
| Boris Johnson gets it first. “We actually now have a foreign secretary who said the EU tells us what quantity of bananas we’re allowed to buy. It’s just bollocks. And that’s the problem.” After this week’s diplomatic spat over prosecco, would she say Johnson is helping Britain’s cause in Europe? Soubry glowers. “I think Boris should understand the consequences of us leaving the single market and the customs union.” Only this week, Soubry met the directors of a pharmaceutical company (she won’t say which one) who told her that they will take 1,000 jobs and relocate to Europe if we leave the single market. “Boris needs to talk to British businesses, as I do. Boris and the rest of his people need to get real.” | Boris Johnson gets it first. “We actually now have a foreign secretary who said the EU tells us what quantity of bananas we’re allowed to buy. It’s just bollocks. And that’s the problem.” After this week’s diplomatic spat over prosecco, would she say Johnson is helping Britain’s cause in Europe? Soubry glowers. “I think Boris should understand the consequences of us leaving the single market and the customs union.” Only this week, Soubry met the directors of a pharmaceutical company (she won’t say which one) who told her that they will take 1,000 jobs and relocate to Europe if we leave the single market. “Boris needs to talk to British businesses, as I do. Boris and the rest of his people need to get real.” |
| Even if we do leave the single market, Soubry doesn’t believe immigration levels will go down. “Look at the stats this week, we are almost at full employment. If we are going to be the vibrant economy that we are, we need migrant workers. That is the reality of what is going to happen. All those people in Boston, they didn’t vote leave to ‘control our borders’. They voted to reduce the number of people living in Boston from the EU! ‘Control’ means reduce. That’s what people in Boston voted for. They voted for less. Now Paul Nuttall from Ukip is saying we’ll have a visa system, and people can come here if they have a job. OK.” She narrows her eyes. “Then will there be more, less, or the same levels of immigration? Paul Nuttall refused to answer the question! Because the answer to the question would be: the same. So you tell me, if we leave the single market, what happens in Boston when those people who voted leave realise they will not see a reduction in the number of migrant workers in their town?” | Even if we do leave the single market, Soubry doesn’t believe immigration levels will go down. “Look at the stats this week, we are almost at full employment. If we are going to be the vibrant economy that we are, we need migrant workers. That is the reality of what is going to happen. All those people in Boston, they didn’t vote leave to ‘control our borders’. They voted to reduce the number of people living in Boston from the EU! ‘Control’ means reduce. That’s what people in Boston voted for. They voted for less. Now Paul Nuttall from Ukip is saying we’ll have a visa system, and people can come here if they have a job. OK.” She narrows her eyes. “Then will there be more, less, or the same levels of immigration? Paul Nuttall refused to answer the question! Because the answer to the question would be: the same. So you tell me, if we leave the single market, what happens in Boston when those people who voted leave realise they will not see a reduction in the number of migrant workers in their town?” |
| Soubry pauses just long enough for me to ask her what she thinks. “They will be even more disillusioned, and they will feel even more betrayed. And I do fear about the consequences for our politics. The democratic deficit will grow, not diminish, by what happened on 23 June. Those people in Boston need to look at the Borises, the Goves, the Carswells, the Farages of this world, who have led them down a garden path into a very dense, very dark, unpleasant forest of darkness.” | Soubry pauses just long enough for me to ask her what she thinks. “They will be even more disillusioned, and they will feel even more betrayed. And I do fear about the consequences for our politics. The democratic deficit will grow, not diminish, by what happened on 23 June. Those people in Boston need to look at the Borises, the Goves, the Carswells, the Farages of this world, who have led them down a garden path into a very dense, very dark, unpleasant forest of darkness.” |
| If anything she is even angrier with the opposition benches. “The greatest betrayal of the liberal left in this country is by the Labour party. The profoundly peculiar thing at the moment is that the two most liberal MPs on the subject of immigration, who will stand up without fear and make the positive case for immigration, are David Lammy and me, in the face of MPs from the Labour party – the Labour party! – who I know agree with us, but are petrified, literally. They’re frozen.” Caught between constituents who voted overwhelmingly to leave, and a Corbynista “ragtag and bobtail of all sorts of lefties” who might deselect them, “They’re terrified. They daren’t speak up for immigration. It’s pathetic, it’s absolutely pathetic. They’ve left it to an old Tory like me to do it.” | If anything she is even angrier with the opposition benches. “The greatest betrayal of the liberal left in this country is by the Labour party. The profoundly peculiar thing at the moment is that the two most liberal MPs on the subject of immigration, who will stand up without fear and make the positive case for immigration, are David Lammy and me, in the face of MPs from the Labour party – the Labour party! – who I know agree with us, but are petrified, literally. They’re frozen.” Caught between constituents who voted overwhelmingly to leave, and a Corbynista “ragtag and bobtail of all sorts of lefties” who might deselect them, “They’re terrified. They daren’t speak up for immigration. It’s pathetic, it’s absolutely pathetic. They’ve left it to an old Tory like me to do it.” |
| It will come as no great surprise to anyone that Soubry is routinely subjected to a barrage of online abuse from both left and right. She says that members of the hard left have proposed that she be hanged and that anti-EU tweeters have told her she is part of the swamp they intend to drain. Her critics point out that she hasn’t been entirely polite herself. In 2013, she memorably said of Nigel Farage, on live television: “I always think he looks like somebody has put their finger up his bottom and he really rather likes it.” Downing Street took a dim view and Soubry issued a public apology, but doesn’t sound terribly sorry – or wholly convincing – when she claims this was in no way the same thing as being abusive. | It will come as no great surprise to anyone that Soubry is routinely subjected to a barrage of online abuse from both left and right. She says that members of the hard left have proposed that she be hanged and that anti-EU tweeters have told her she is part of the swamp they intend to drain. Her critics point out that she hasn’t been entirely polite herself. In 2013, she memorably said of Nigel Farage, on live television: “I always think he looks like somebody has put their finger up his bottom and he really rather likes it.” Downing Street took a dim view and Soubry issued a public apology, but doesn’t sound terribly sorry – or wholly convincing – when she claims this was in no way the same thing as being abusive. |
| “That’s not me deriding – ” she begins, before swiftly breaking off, presumably realising that derision is exactly what it was. She tries again. “That’s me taking the mickey out of him. That’s me finding humour. It’s not a personal …” She breaks off again, as that won’t wash either. “It’s not hateful. It’s not the same as hating somebody. I don’t hate anybody. I dislike people’s politics.” She thinks for a moment. “The only person I think I actually do dislike is John McDonnell, I actually do think he’s a nasty piece of work, because he’s an IRA apologist. I’m entitled to call him a nasty piece of work because of what he said about the IRA.” I don’t follow why this constitutes a justifiable exception, nor why, if it did, she wouldn’t also dislike Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness too. “But I don’t hate him,” she goes on. “Hate is awful.” | “That’s not me deriding – ” she begins, before swiftly breaking off, presumably realising that derision is exactly what it was. She tries again. “That’s me taking the mickey out of him. That’s me finding humour. It’s not a personal …” She breaks off again, as that won’t wash either. “It’s not hateful. It’s not the same as hating somebody. I don’t hate anybody. I dislike people’s politics.” She thinks for a moment. “The only person I think I actually do dislike is John McDonnell, I actually do think he’s a nasty piece of work, because he’s an IRA apologist. I’m entitled to call him a nasty piece of work because of what he said about the IRA.” I don’t follow why this constitutes a justifiable exception, nor why, if it did, she wouldn’t also dislike Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness too. “But I don’t hate him,” she goes on. “Hate is awful.” |
| She feels on firmer ground with the media. “Our media’s taken leave of its senses. Hysterical headlines are I’m afraid just becoming acceptable. I think the Daily Mail is just appalling at the moment.” She has nothing but praise for Gary Lineker, “the sensible face of our country”, and is a big fan of the current #stopfundinghate campaign to persuade advertisers to boycott newspapers that print xenophobic smears against immigrants. | She feels on firmer ground with the media. “Our media’s taken leave of its senses. Hysterical headlines are I’m afraid just becoming acceptable. I think the Daily Mail is just appalling at the moment.” She has nothing but praise for Gary Lineker, “the sensible face of our country”, and is a big fan of the current #stopfundinghate campaign to persuade advertisers to boycott newspapers that print xenophobic smears against immigrants. |
| “This over-sensationalisation – emotional rather than factual – it’s got to stop. You can be passionate about something but still have a reasoned debate based on fact and evidence, and not this horrible hate-filled way the media and politicians are conducting themselves. It’s appalling. We’ve lost the civilised art of robust, well-informed debate, and we need to get it back. I’m concerned that it’s now acceptable for people to say things they know aren’t true, and no one challenges them.” | “This over-sensationalisation – emotional rather than factual – it’s got to stop. You can be passionate about something but still have a reasoned debate based on fact and evidence, and not this horrible hate-filled way the media and politicians are conducting themselves. It’s appalling. We’ve lost the civilised art of robust, well-informed debate, and we need to get it back. I’m concerned that it’s now acceptable for people to say things they know aren’t true, and no one challenges them.” |
| Soubry offers an anecdote to illustrate how it should be done. During the referendum campaign she met a man in the east Midlands who told her that you no longer hear anyone speaking English in Newark. | Soubry offers an anecdote to illustrate how it should be done. During the referendum campaign she met a man in the east Midlands who told her that you no longer hear anyone speaking English in Newark. |
| “I thought, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ I looked him straight in the eye and said: ‘That’s crap and you know it’. I said, ‘That is crap and you know it. I know Newark, and that’s crap. Of course you hear people speaking English! Overwhelmingly they’re speaking English in Newark’. And you could see him thinking, that’s absolutely true.” She snorts. “Well of course it’s true! But it’s become acceptable to say that, and people weren’t being challenged. So I challenged him.” By now she is jabbing a finger at me and her eyes are burning. “And he went, ‘Yeah, but … but … yes you’re right. But they hang around on street corners drinking beer’. And I said, heavy with sarcasm, ‘Yeah, because of course, British-born people never do that, do they?’ And you could see again, he was thinking, ‘Oh, of course she’s right.’ You see, I was challenging him! That’s how you win this argument!” | “I thought, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ I looked him straight in the eye and said: ‘That’s crap and you know it’. I said, ‘That is crap and you know it. I know Newark, and that’s crap. Of course you hear people speaking English! Overwhelmingly they’re speaking English in Newark’. And you could see him thinking, that’s absolutely true.” She snorts. “Well of course it’s true! But it’s become acceptable to say that, and people weren’t being challenged. So I challenged him.” By now she is jabbing a finger at me and her eyes are burning. “And he went, ‘Yeah, but … but … yes you’re right. But they hang around on street corners drinking beer’. And I said, heavy with sarcasm, ‘Yeah, because of course, British-born people never do that, do they?’ And you could see again, he was thinking, ‘Oh, of course she’s right.’ You see, I was challenging him! That’s how you win this argument!” |
| Many of us – 48% of us, probably – wish more people had won that argument. But Soubry admits that, because she voted for the Referendum Act, she shares some of the blame for the constitutional fiasco we now find ourselves in. She had been in favour of holding a referendum – “Only because I thought we would win. Obviously I wouldn’t have been if I thought we would lose, let’s be honest!” – but, like everyone else, failed to notice the legal flaws in the legislation, which only came to light when the high court ruled that parliament’s consent was required to trigger article 50. | Many of us – 48% of us, probably – wish more people had won that argument. But Soubry admits that, because she voted for the Referendum Act, she shares some of the blame for the constitutional fiasco we now find ourselves in. She had been in favour of holding a referendum – “Only because I thought we would win. Obviously I wouldn’t have been if I thought we would lose, let’s be honest!” – but, like everyone else, failed to notice the legal flaws in the legislation, which only came to light when the high court ruled that parliament’s consent was required to trigger article 50. |
| “Look, people should be cross. People should be cross. And I feel very guilty about that. We voted for the Referendum Act without understanding the consequences of a leave vote. We told people it was binding, but now we don’t know, and it’s quite concerning that none of these things were explored before parliament decided. It’s all of our faults. All of us. Every single one of us.” | “Look, people should be cross. People should be cross. And I feel very guilty about that. We voted for the Referendum Act without understanding the consequences of a leave vote. We told people it was binding, but now we don’t know, and it’s quite concerning that none of these things were explored before parliament decided. It’s all of our faults. All of us. Every single one of us.” |
| Nevertheless, she has come to the decision that she will vote for article 50. “I hadn’t made up my mind, but now, yeah, I’ve made up my mind. You need to be very clear about this, because I’m quite agitated that people say I’m going to thwart it, blah, blah, blah. No I’m not.” Why did it take her so long to decide? “Well, because my other argument is that it’s against everything I believe in.” So why vote for it? “Because I told people that if we voted leave, we would. And I can’t go back on that. So it’s taken me time to get to this place.” | Nevertheless, she has come to the decision that she will vote for article 50. “I hadn’t made up my mind, but now, yeah, I’ve made up my mind. You need to be very clear about this, because I’m quite agitated that people say I’m going to thwart it, blah, blah, blah. No I’m not.” Why did it take her so long to decide? “Well, because my other argument is that it’s against everything I believe in.” So why vote for it? “Because I told people that if we voted leave, we would. And I can’t go back on that. So it’s taken me time to get to this place.” |
| Having made up her mind that this is the right thing to do, would she think it illegitimate for any other MPs to vote against article 50? “Absolutely not, no. That’s up to them, entirely up to them. I would not condemn any colleague, whichever way they voted.” | Having made up her mind that this is the right thing to do, would she think it illegitimate for any other MPs to vote against article 50? “Absolutely not, no. That’s up to them, entirely up to them. I would not condemn any colleague, whichever way they voted.” |
| How MPs in Westminster vote might turn out to be moot if Soubry is right about her next point. The government is appealing against the high court ruling, but at the supreme court hearing, the Scottish government will argue that the consent of Holyrood is also required to trigger article 50. Soubry thinks it has a strong case. “Yes. I’m reliably informed that the Scotland Act 2016 section 2 says that you cannot interfere with devolved Scottish matters, they must be determined by the Scottish parliament.” | How MPs in Westminster vote might turn out to be moot if Soubry is right about her next point. The government is appealing against the high court ruling, but at the supreme court hearing, the Scottish government will argue that the consent of Holyrood is also required to trigger article 50. Soubry thinks it has a strong case. “Yes. I’m reliably informed that the Scotland Act 2016 section 2 says that you cannot interfere with devolved Scottish matters, they must be determined by the Scottish parliament.” |
| If, as seems likely, Scotland were to block article 50, what would happen then? “Well, we’re in a terrible constitutional crisis. We are on the verge of a constitutional crisis the likes of which we have not seen.” | If, as seems likely, Scotland were to block article 50, what would happen then? “Well, we’re in a terrible constitutional crisis. We are on the verge of a constitutional crisis the likes of which we have not seen.” |
| When we part, I find myself wondering what Soubry is like when she isn’t so terrifically angry. It’s hard to say, but I have a feeling she might be tremendous fun. When the opportunity to find out might come is anyone’s guess, however, as it is difficult to see the current Brexit mess being resolved to her satisfaction. How, I wonder, does she see events panning out? | When we part, I find myself wondering what Soubry is like when she isn’t so terrifically angry. It’s hard to say, but I have a feeling she might be tremendous fun. When the opportunity to find out might come is anyone’s guess, however, as it is difficult to see the current Brexit mess being resolved to her satisfaction. How, I wonder, does she see events panning out? |
| “At the moment, nothing would surprise me. If you’d told me 19 months ago that I would get re-elected, David Cameron would have won a majority, Jeremy Corbyn would be the leader of the Labour party, we would have left the European Union, and Donald Trump would be president, I think I would have thought you’d been on some very strange psychoactive substance. And that was only 19 months ago. You just don’t know what’s going to happen.” | “At the moment, nothing would surprise me. If you’d told me 19 months ago that I would get re-elected, David Cameron would have won a majority, Jeremy Corbyn would be the leader of the Labour party, we would have left the European Union, and Donald Trump would be president, I think I would have thought you’d been on some very strange psychoactive substance. And that was only 19 months ago. You just don’t know what’s going to happen.” |