This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/dec/16/guardian-treat-fake-news-join-live-look
The article has changed 9 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 3 | Version 4 |
|---|---|
| Do you dread the work Christmas party? Join our live look at the week | Do you dread the work Christmas party? Join our live look at the week |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 2.26pm GMT | |
| 14:26 | |
| Get involved in the best of culture 2016 | |
| What was your album of the year? Do you agree with the Guardian’s list which has Beyoncé at the top? Maybe you have another pick? Let us know below – or share your review here. | |
| 2.24pm GMT | |
| 14:24 | |
| A self-employed Christmas makes for a lonely office party ... | |
| I only ever went to a works christmas do if there was a free bar. There's absolutely no way i'm going to shell out to be with people I'd never normally drink with. | |
| Now I'm self employed my Christmas dos tend to be every night in December down the local. | |
| 2.03pm GMT | |
| 14:03 | |
| Conversation of the week: the wrong trousers? | |
| Every week we ask our team of moderators to tell us about a comment thread they’ve found particularly interesting – this week, they wanted to highlight the conversation you’ve been having on an article about the prime minister’s trousers ... | |
| It isn't the gender, it's the Prime Minister "just about managing" to be clad - informally, for an 'off duty' interview - for about £1,300 (trousers and shoes).Anyone who can't grasp that disconnect - in a society where the working poor and disabled members of society struggle to subsist while prisons fall apart and libraries are shut - is part of the problem. | |
| Well, May is very rich compared to most of the population, so it's no surprise to me that she spends so much on clothes, as I'm sure she does on her home, car, etc. | |
| I don't care about her personal wealth, or that of Morgan- I know we live in a vastly unequal society, and that the Tories are mostly from wealthy backgrounds, and they don't feel guilty about this because they believe that their status represents their innate superiority. | |
| What I care about is government policies that further inequality and reduction in the living standards of the most disadvantaged in society - of cutting benefits to people who can barely afford a couple of tins of baked beans and a pint of milk to feed their families. | |
| Anyway, back to the trousers row - Hadley is right to say that this is sexist in the coverage it's generated. | |
| At first I thought it was misogynistic to focus on the cost of her trousers considering Dave wore suits at 4 times the cost. | |
| Then I thought that if he had worn a leather suit it would have attracted media criticism. | |
| But then I thought that he ran away from being PM after taking the UK out the EU. Then he ran away from being an MP the day before his leadership was questioned into an inquiry about Syria. Yet the press still paint him as a jolly nice chap. | |
| Then I thought it must be really difficult to run away if you're wearing a leather suit. | |
| And then I thought about David Cameron lunging in a tight leather suit. And that's when I started drinking. | |
| What do you think? Tell us in the comments. | |
| 2.01pm GMT | |
| 14:01 | |
| The best films of 2016 ... | |
| Andrew Pulver | |
| As we charge into the final weeks of the year, we’re drowning in best-of lists – but why resist? With Rogue One just in UK cinemas and Passengers still to come, making an absolutely definitive assessment of the best films of the year may have to wait just a little. On the Guardian’s film desk though, we’ve been totting up our own scores – read the results here if you need a discussion-starter. And there’s plenty to choose from: you might go for Ken Loach’s searing I, Daniel Blake, or the swoony melodrama The Light Between Oceans; one-shot German thriller Victoria or Andrea Arnold’s road-trip American Honey. (The picture is a bit more confusing if you include all the films being talked up for Oscar contention, such as Martin Scorsese’s Silence or Hollywood musical homage La La Land, that aren’t actually out in the UK until next year). Still, there’s plenty to be going on with, so let battle commence … | |
| What are your favourites? Share in the comments | |
| 1.25pm GMT | 1.25pm GMT |
| 13:25 | 13:25 |
| So far, enforced Christmas fun not getting the best reviews below the line | So far, enforced Christmas fun not getting the best reviews below the line |
| I didn't want to go. If I actually went to every social event my office ran this Christmas it would cost more than £400 and I'd have to spend the equivalent of another working week with people I dislike. | I didn't want to go. If I actually went to every social event my office ran this Christmas it would cost more than £400 and I'd have to spend the equivalent of another working week with people I dislike. |
| Now it's quiet and I can turn the thermostat down to a sensible 17C. | Now it's quiet and I can turn the thermostat down to a sensible 17C. |
| I perhaps went a little too far. When the date of our office Christmas party was released I promptly booked a long weekend in Barcelona (it was on the Thursday evening and I left Thursday afternoon). | I perhaps went a little too far. When the date of our office Christmas party was released I promptly booked a long weekend in Barcelona (it was on the Thursday evening and I left Thursday afternoon). |
| I had a fantastic time, made even better by the lack of the usual work calls as everyone was horrendously hungover. | I had a fantastic time, made even better by the lack of the usual work calls as everyone was horrendously hungover. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.32pm GMT | at 1.32pm GMT |
| 1.01pm GMT | 1.01pm GMT |
| 13:01 | 13:01 |
| Do you dread the work Christmas do? | Do you dread the work Christmas do? |
| The office Christmas party – a great time to relax, chat about things other than work and get to know your colleagues over mince pies and mulled wine ... Or, a series of awkward conversations while you look at the door and wish you could go through it, head to another pub and hang out with your real friends? | The office Christmas party – a great time to relax, chat about things other than work and get to know your colleagues over mince pies and mulled wine ... Or, a series of awkward conversations while you look at the door and wish you could go through it, head to another pub and hang out with your real friends? |
| Have you had yours yet? We enjoyed the conversation beneath this article which suggests a third of us dread ours – with many pulling a “social sickie” to get out of it. | Have you had yours yet? We enjoyed the conversation beneath this article which suggests a third of us dread ours – with many pulling a “social sickie” to get out of it. |
| ‘Drinking my weight in free wine’ | ‘Drinking my weight in free wine’ |
| I quite enjoyed mine this year. Highlights were flouting the dress code and then trying to drink my weight in free wine to make up for all the unpaid overtime they've had out of me this year. | I quite enjoyed mine this year. Highlights were flouting the dress code and then trying to drink my weight in free wine to make up for all the unpaid overtime they've had out of me this year. |
| ‘It was March before I could look my self in the eye’ | ‘It was March before I could look my self in the eye’ |
| Im self employed so it's just me at my Xmas party. I'm banning the booze this year, it's quite amazing how a few bottles of cheap plonk can lower the inhibitions, it was March before I could look my self in the eye while shaving. | Im self employed so it's just me at my Xmas party. I'm banning the booze this year, it's quite amazing how a few bottles of cheap plonk can lower the inhibitions, it was March before I could look my self in the eye while shaving. |
| ‘Half the office looked at me in horror’ | ‘Half the office looked at me in horror’ |
| I'm not going to ours this year, and when people asked why I told them I didn't really feel like it. Half the office looked at me in horror, the other half with a mixture of admiration and envy. It made me feel strangely alive. | I'm not going to ours this year, and when people asked why I told them I didn't really feel like it. Half the office looked at me in horror, the other half with a mixture of admiration and envy. It made me feel strangely alive. |
| Why can’t you just say ‘Thanks, but I’m not coming’? | Why can’t you just say ‘Thanks, but I’m not coming’? |
| Why can't you just say 'Thanks, but I'm not coming.' That's what I always did. There was some talk of making it compulsory, and whenever that happened I was quite forward about saying that I would be looking for another job then.Later, when I was the boss, I asked she-who-must-be-obeyed (my secretary) to canvas opinion of whether to have one or not. Sometimes a majority did want one. The answer was to set a budget, divide it by the number of staff, and ask each if they wanted the cash or a party...... Never, ever, had a taker, and no day of sickie handovers after either. | Why can't you just say 'Thanks, but I'm not coming.' That's what I always did. There was some talk of making it compulsory, and whenever that happened I was quite forward about saying that I would be looking for another job then.Later, when I was the boss, I asked she-who-must-be-obeyed (my secretary) to canvas opinion of whether to have one or not. Sometimes a majority did want one. The answer was to set a budget, divide it by the number of staff, and ask each if they wanted the cash or a party...... Never, ever, had a taker, and no day of sickie handovers after either. |
| What do you think? Do you look forward to the occasion? Perhaps you’ve already had your do and are filled with regret about what was said after one too many drinks? Share your views below in the comments. | What do you think? Do you look forward to the occasion? Perhaps you’ve already had your do and are filled with regret about what was said after one too many drinks? Share your views below in the comments. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.02pm GMT | at 1.02pm GMT |
| 12.30pm GMT | 12.30pm GMT |
| 12:30 | 12:30 |
| Planet Earth is the therapy we need after a turbulent year | Planet Earth is the therapy we need after a turbulent year |
| John Still | John Still |
| How we’ve needed Planet Earth II. David Attenborough’s latest jaw-dropping journey into the natural world has provided much-appreciated respite from what has been a turbulent 2016. | How we’ve needed Planet Earth II. David Attenborough’s latest jaw-dropping journey into the natural world has provided much-appreciated respite from what has been a turbulent 2016. |
| Attenborough himself has noted that the show is a form of “two-way therapy” for those who “are reconnecting with a planet whose beauty is blemished”. Those restorative qualities are being widely embrace. Up to 10.6 million viewers have tuned in to witness, among other highlights, a flamingo parade, a nail-biting snake attack, and a bobcat faceplanting into snow which seemed to sum up how many of us have been feeling throughout this tumultuous year. | Attenborough himself has noted that the show is a form of “two-way therapy” for those who “are reconnecting with a planet whose beauty is blemished”. Those restorative qualities are being widely embrace. Up to 10.6 million viewers have tuned in to witness, among other highlights, a flamingo parade, a nail-biting snake attack, and a bobcat faceplanting into snow which seemed to sum up how many of us have been feeling throughout this tumultuous year. |
| Have you been watching? Where else have you turned for pop-culture solace in the most uncertain of times? Let us know in the comments below. | Have you been watching? Where else have you turned for pop-culture solace in the most uncertain of times? Let us know in the comments below. |
| 12.30pm GMT | 12.30pm GMT |
| 12:30 | 12:30 |
| Your views so far on fake news – you can click on the comments to get involved | Your views so far on fake news – you can click on the comments to get involved |
| It's hard to know whether to ignore it or debunk it.Obviously a media outlet that does not report or comment on fake stories risks being ignored itself. Yet somehow in descending to that level, that source is sullied.It seems to me that intelligent people want to be free of garbage, they want a source they can trust, they want that source to make clear what is true reporting, what is evidence, what is opinion. A true paper of record.I would like to believe there is only a faithful readership for that kind of source, but it is essential to proper functioning of our democracy. | It's hard to know whether to ignore it or debunk it.Obviously a media outlet that does not report or comment on fake stories risks being ignored itself. Yet somehow in descending to that level, that source is sullied.It seems to me that intelligent people want to be free of garbage, they want a source they can trust, they want that source to make clear what is true reporting, what is evidence, what is opinion. A true paper of record.I would like to believe there is only a faithful readership for that kind of source, but it is essential to proper functioning of our democracy. |
| Fake news is a nightmare, mainly because there is no such thing as fake news. Practically everything put out there has a small kernel of truth or at least an echo, or déjà vu of something heard or seen before. The fact is that there is no way to curtail the rampant distortions, misinformation and nonsense which pour out of the internet each micro-second. We opened the information dam to the whole world, and now we must live with the consequences. | Fake news is a nightmare, mainly because there is no such thing as fake news. Practically everything put out there has a small kernel of truth or at least an echo, or déjà vu of something heard or seen before. The fact is that there is no way to curtail the rampant distortions, misinformation and nonsense which pour out of the internet each micro-second. We opened the information dam to the whole world, and now we must live with the consequences. |
| We can't tackle this by trying to plug or censor the sources, we have to deal with it at the receptor end. That means lifting educational and knowledge levels to the point where people don't just believe, don't click on crap and are savvy enough to be their own reliable filters. The internet has been unleashed onto a world population who are not capable of dealing with it in many ways. It's a massive task, but education is the only way to solve this. | We can't tackle this by trying to plug or censor the sources, we have to deal with it at the receptor end. That means lifting educational and knowledge levels to the point where people don't just believe, don't click on crap and are savvy enough to be their own reliable filters. The internet has been unleashed onto a world population who are not capable of dealing with it in many ways. It's a massive task, but education is the only way to solve this. |
| And who should fund this vast investment into world education? Why, the multi-nationals who make billions from technology and the net of course. | And who should fund this vast investment into world education? Why, the multi-nationals who make billions from technology and the net of course. |
| There's a lot of confusion around this. Reporting what someone else has said, assuming they've actually said it, isn't fake news. | There's a lot of confusion around this. Reporting what someone else has said, assuming they've actually said it, isn't fake news. |
| Making up facts is fake news. | Making up facts is fake news. |
| Interpreting trends and events isn't fake news - it may be propaganda but it isn't fake. | Interpreting trends and events isn't fake news - it may be propaganda but it isn't fake. |
| Cherry-picking from trends and events is fake news. | Cherry-picking from trends and events is fake news. |
| A lot of the time, it seems BTL at least, readers are unable or unwilling to make distinctions between different journalistic styles. The classic example is the claim about WMD in Iraq. This was apparently false information but reporting on it - here at the gruan, anyway, wasn't fake news. | A lot of the time, it seems BTL at least, readers are unable or unwilling to make distinctions between different journalistic styles. The classic example is the claim about WMD in Iraq. This was apparently false information but reporting on it - here at the gruan, anyway, wasn't fake news. |
| Removing fake articles, correcting fake information, clearly differentiating investigative journalism from opinion pieces and so on is easily enough for readers of this newspaper to understand what is factually reliable and what is clearly an editorial line. | Removing fake articles, correcting fake information, clearly differentiating investigative journalism from opinion pieces and so on is easily enough for readers of this newspaper to understand what is factually reliable and what is clearly an editorial line. |
| 12.01pm GMT | 12.01pm GMT |
| 12:01 | 12:01 |
| How should the Guardian treat fake news? | How should the Guardian treat fake news? |
| Alan Evans | Alan Evans |
| The Sunday Times published an article claiming that students had been “told to use gender-neutral pronouns such as ‘ze’ rather than ‘he’ or ‘she’”. It was quickly reported almost verbatim by other outlets including the Huffington Post (since modified), Metro, the Independent and even Pink News. | The Sunday Times published an article claiming that students had been “told to use gender-neutral pronouns such as ‘ze’ rather than ‘he’ or ‘she’”. It was quickly reported almost verbatim by other outlets including the Huffington Post (since modified), Metro, the Independent and even Pink News. |
| It soon became clear that the story was at the very least an exaggeration. It had been written in vague terms, referring to “a students’ union leaflet” as the source of the claim, but the union quickly came out with a denial, saying that their advice had only ever been that people should identify their preferred pronoun when speaking at meetings. The Guardian reported on the OUSU statement and also published a comment piece by Jane Fae referring to the incident. | It soon became clear that the story was at the very least an exaggeration. It had been written in vague terms, referring to “a students’ union leaflet” as the source of the claim, but the union quickly came out with a denial, saying that their advice had only ever been that people should identify their preferred pronoun when speaking at meetings. The Guardian reported on the OUSU statement and also published a comment piece by Jane Fae referring to the incident. |
| In recent weeks, talk of “fake news” has been the subject of much media discussion, and it’s worth considering our options when a false or misleading story starts doing the rounds. | In recent weeks, talk of “fake news” has been the subject of much media discussion, and it’s worth considering our options when a false or misleading story starts doing the rounds. |
| • Should we take the high road and ignore it completely? Perhaps, but if it’s become a talking point, we may have a responsibility to our readers to report on it. | • Should we take the high road and ignore it completely? Perhaps, but if it’s become a talking point, we may have a responsibility to our readers to report on it. |
| • Or should we publish a Snopes-style debunking? They can be very useful, but if we took that approach every time we were confronted with false or exaggerated claims that would quickly take up all our resources, as well as risking unhelpfully bringing attention to things (cf Pizzagate). | • Or should we publish a Snopes-style debunking? They can be very useful, but if we took that approach every time we were confronted with false or exaggerated claims that would quickly take up all our resources, as well as risking unhelpfully bringing attention to things (cf Pizzagate). |
| • Another option is not to treat it as news and approach it through a comment piece or a Pass Notes, where it’s easier to explain the situation without giving it too much weight. | • Another option is not to treat it as news and approach it through a comment piece or a Pass Notes, where it’s easier to explain the situation without giving it too much weight. |
| Even more tricky is how to deal with stories that are only revealed as false much later on – for example, the Intercept reporter who months later admitted he had fabricated messages or Rolling Stone’s notorious A Rape on Campus story. The Guardian has also recently had to retract articles after sources said they had not spoken to the reporter who quoted them. | Even more tricky is how to deal with stories that are only revealed as false much later on – for example, the Intercept reporter who months later admitted he had fabricated messages or Rolling Stone’s notorious A Rape on Campus story. The Guardian has also recently had to retract articles after sources said they had not spoken to the reporter who quoted them. |
| From deliberately false stories to misleading exaggerations to honest mistakes, there’s no one-size-fits-all answer. I’d be interested to know how our readers feel about these stories and how they think the Guardian should treat “fake news” in its various forms. | From deliberately false stories to misleading exaggerations to honest mistakes, there’s no one-size-fits-all answer. I’d be interested to know how our readers feel about these stories and how they think the Guardian should treat “fake news” in its various forms. |
| 11.57am GMT | 11.57am GMT |
| 11:57 | 11:57 |
| Welcome everyone | Welcome everyone |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Happy Friday and welcome to our weekly social, where we discuss the week’s best news and comment with readers. We have lots of great topics coming up today (join us from 12pm until around 4.30pm) – look forward to getting started. | Happy Friday and welcome to our weekly social, where we discuss the week’s best news and comment with readers. We have lots of great topics coming up today (join us from 12pm until around 4.30pm) – look forward to getting started. |