This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/19/meaningless-readers-on-sajid-javids-british-values-oath
The article has changed 4 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 2 | Version 3 |
|---|---|
| 'Meaningless': readers on Sajid Javid's British values oath 'Meaningless': readers on Sajid Javid's British values oath | |
| (about 7 hours later) | |
| Every public office-holder will have to swear an oath of allegiance to “fundamental British values”, if proposals by the communities secretary are adopted. | Every public office-holder will have to swear an oath of allegiance to “fundamental British values”, if proposals by the communities secretary are adopted. |
| The pledge would be expected to cover members of parliament and other elected officials, civil servants, and council workers, and would cover values such as freedom of speech, equality and democracy. | The pledge would be expected to cover members of parliament and other elected officials, civil servants, and council workers, and would cover values such as freedom of speech, equality and democracy. |
| Sajid Javid, writing in the Sunday Times in response to Dame Louise Casey’s report on social cohesion, said he was “drawn” to such an oath because “civic and political leaders have to lead by example” in upholding values such as “tolerating the views of others, even if you disagree with them.” | Sajid Javid, writing in the Sunday Times in response to Dame Louise Casey’s report on social cohesion, said he was “drawn” to such an oath because “civic and political leaders have to lead by example” in upholding values such as “tolerating the views of others, even if you disagree with them.” |
| Javid also wants all migrants, not just those seeking UK citizenship, to swear an oath of allegiance. | Javid also wants all migrants, not just those seeking UK citizenship, to swear an oath of allegiance. |
| “Without common building blocks of our society, you’ll struggle to play a positive role in British life”, Javid said. | “Without common building blocks of our society, you’ll struggle to play a positive role in British life”, Javid said. |
| Readers reacted with scepticism to Javid’s proposal, citing, among other things, the difficulty in quantifying uniquely British values - something Javid himself acknowledged. | Readers reacted with scepticism to Javid’s proposal, citing, among other things, the difficulty in quantifying uniquely British values - something Javid himself acknowledged. |
| Below, we highlight some of their arguments. | Below, we highlight some of their arguments. |
| Britishness is laughing at silly oaths | Britishness is laughing at silly oaths |
| Probably the best thing about British values is we laugh at swearing silly oaths like they sometimes have to do in tin pot banana republics | Probably the best thing about British values is we laugh at swearing silly oaths like they sometimes have to do in tin pot banana republics |
| It’s window dressing | It’s window dressing |
| ... it's just ill-thought-through 'window-dressing' (IMO). | ... it's just ill-thought-through 'window-dressing' (IMO). |
| Just an attempt to be seen to be doing something about the fractures within society at the moment which are a tad complex and nuanced and which Javid's 'oath' will do nothing to solve. | Just an attempt to be seen to be doing something about the fractures within society at the moment which are a tad complex and nuanced and which Javid's 'oath' will do nothing to solve. |
| British values vary person by person | British values vary person by person |
| If you asked a hundred British people what are British values, there'd be a hundred different answers. There's no such thing. This is just the tories trying to get some tabloid headlines so it looks like they're actually doing something. | If you asked a hundred British people what are British values, there'd be a hundred different answers. There's no such thing. This is just the tories trying to get some tabloid headlines so it looks like they're actually doing something. |
| Would there be a list? | Would there be a list? |
| This sounds like a remarkably silly idea. How would one even define and make a list of these values which people were meant to swear an oath to uphold? Are these values even constant? | This sounds like a remarkably silly idea. How would one even define and make a list of these values which people were meant to swear an oath to uphold? Are these values even constant? |
| Oaths only make sense in specific contexts | Oaths only make sense in specific contexts |
| Oaths make sense in tightly defined situations - and where there are clear repercussions for breaking it. You swear an oath before giving evidence - as a reminder not to commit perjury. New soldiers swear allegiance - as a reminder not to fall asleep on sentry duty. Promising to be "tolerant" and to "try and fit in" - it's just so vague as to be meaningless. | Oaths make sense in tightly defined situations - and where there are clear repercussions for breaking it. You swear an oath before giving evidence - as a reminder not to commit perjury. New soldiers swear allegiance - as a reminder not to fall asleep on sentry duty. Promising to be "tolerant" and to "try and fit in" - it's just so vague as to be meaningless. |
| Absence of oaths is a sign of a healthy nation | Absence of oaths is a sign of a healthy nation |
| British values are constantly changing and the drivers of change are often those reformers who rejected certain British values. In any case, oaths of allegiance are devices abused by extremists while the absence of oaths of allegiance is a sign of a mature, confident nation. | British values are constantly changing and the drivers of change are often those reformers who rejected certain British values. In any case, oaths of allegiance are devices abused by extremists while the absence of oaths of allegiance is a sign of a mature, confident nation. |
| A pacifist alternative is needed | A pacifist alternative is needed |
| I swear I will never ever allow my government to attack a foreign country that presents no threat to us. I swear I will never allow my government to kill civilians again whilst I have strength | I swear I will never ever allow my government to attack a foreign country that presents no threat to us. I swear I will never allow my government to kill civilians again whilst I have strength |
| Tolerance is a cornerstone of all democracies - not just Britain | Tolerance is a cornerstone of all democracies - not just Britain |
| What exactly are "British values"? Javid seems to be promoting "Tolerance, equality, democracy and the democratic process" as being in some way uniquely British. That is utter piffle. Shades of Cameron hailing Britain as having Christian values! And is Javid's oath to begin with "I swear by almighty God...."? For an atheist like me, such an oath is meaningless. | What exactly are "British values"? Javid seems to be promoting "Tolerance, equality, democracy and the democratic process" as being in some way uniquely British. That is utter piffle. Shades of Cameron hailing Britain as having Christian values! And is Javid's oath to begin with "I swear by almighty God...."? For an atheist like me, such an oath is meaningless. |
| An oath would be meaningless without a proper constitution | An oath would be meaningless without a proper constitution |
| When we have a proper written Constitution that cannot be steamrollered by an extreme Govt that has been elected by a minority yet has attained a technical legislative majority (such as our current Govt) in Parliament, there may be some point in devising an appropriate oath; but by then we shan't need it. | When we have a proper written Constitution that cannot be steamrollered by an extreme Govt that has been elected by a minority yet has attained a technical legislative majority (such as our current Govt) in Parliament, there may be some point in devising an appropriate oath; but by then we shan't need it. |
| We shall also then be able to discuss "Democracy" with some genuine meaning rather than the jingoistic, lowest common denominator, and ultimately hollow and meaningless distractions such as those produced by the likes of Louise Casey and Said Javid. | We shall also then be able to discuss "Democracy" with some genuine meaning rather than the jingoistic, lowest common denominator, and ultimately hollow and meaningless distractions such as those produced by the likes of Louise Casey and Said Javid. |
| Would tax dodgers be included? | Would tax dodgers be included? |
| Would this include the British values of dodging tax and preserving inequality? | Would this include the British values of dodging tax and preserving inequality? |