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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2017/feb/17/how-can-we-close-the-north-south-divide-on-brexit-join-our-live-look-at-the-week
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| Who should pay for dinner on a first date? – join our live look at the week | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 2.25pm GMT | |
| 14:25 | |
| We’re going to change topics again above the line here, but you can join readers discussing Brexit, fact checking and Donald Trump – as well as important things like what they had for lunch – in the comments. | |
| 2.14pm GMT | |
| 14:14 | |
| A point on Trump’s handshake, now. | |
| What do you make of Trump’s signature move? What does it tell us about his personality? | |
| Well jeez now, let's extend in every way possible the obsessive cult of personality by analysing, headlining, and considering in great detail every minutiae of a person, instead of covering issues like ooh, I don't know - the Oroville dam - if you really want to stay in the US. | |
| Ya know, things which actually happened. | |
| Personally I couldn't give a flying bat's plop about his handshake or "what that tells us". Hehe. | |
| Here’s a story related to the point on Oroville: | |
| Updated | |
| at 2.14pm GMT | |
| 1.56pm GMT | |
| 13:56 | |
| How can we fact check the fact checkers? | |
| Jasper Jackson | |
| Writing about the treatment of facts online (as I did this week) is always tricky. One person’s incontrovertible truth is often another’s “fake news”. That was inevitably reflected in some of the responses to my piece, which was about sites presenting themselves as neutral fact checkers despite clear biases. | |
| Some commenters attacked the Guardian’s own reporting, though many also defended its integrity. Others questioned whether any fact checker could be unbiased, including some of those known for good practice. | |
| The thing is that even Snopes can be biased, whether consciously or unconsciously. People need to realise that fact-checkers are only people, in the end. Best solution (albeit somewhat time-consuming) is to do one's own digging, reading from sources which are divergent ideologically and checking the information they are based on. | |
| Some suggested media organisations should add broader context, others said they should restrict themselves to the bare simple facts with less interpretation. | |
| Whatever the opinions, it is especially heartening to see people engage with what is not only a huge issue for journalism and politics, but also one that makes a critical approach to everything you read vital. Guardian commenters, whether they agree with us or not, seem well aware of the importance of assessing sources of information carefully, which can only be a good thing. | |
| 1.49pm GMT | 1.49pm GMT |
| 13:49 | 13:49 |
| What would you like to talk about? Don’t be afraid to tell us in the comments. | What would you like to talk about? Don’t be afraid to tell us in the comments. |
| Brexit and Trump, it's Friday, can't we have something light and fluffy to natter about instead? | Brexit and Trump, it's Friday, can't we have something light and fluffy to natter about instead? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.49pm GMT | at 1.49pm GMT |
| 1.30pm GMT | 1.30pm GMT |
| 13:30 | 13:30 |
| What does Donald Trump's handshake tell us about him? | What does Donald Trump's handshake tell us about him? |
| Toby Moses | Toby Moses |
| Seven days in Trump-land is befuddling – a constant stream of stories, all seemingly more confusing than the next. But it was the handshake that captured the imagination earlier this week. This short film, in fact, was one of the most viewed pieces on the Guardian in the last few days: | Seven days in Trump-land is befuddling – a constant stream of stories, all seemingly more confusing than the next. But it was the handshake that captured the imagination earlier this week. This short film, in fact, was one of the most viewed pieces on the Guardian in the last few days: |
| I’d first noticed it at the announcement of his Supreme Court nominee – the odd forceful pull he engages in, dragging his victim near to those beady eyes, no doubt squeezing as hard as his tiny hands can manage. But it was Justin Trudeau’s ability to resist that focused minds. | I’d first noticed it at the announcement of his Supreme Court nominee – the odd forceful pull he engages in, dragging his victim near to those beady eyes, no doubt squeezing as hard as his tiny hands can manage. But it was Justin Trudeau’s ability to resist that focused minds. |
| The Canadian PM had already demonstrated his core strength with his remarkable plank – but the bicep power to deny the “yank-shake”, as body language expert Peter Collett termed it, is quite something. So what does it mean? Collett provided some expert analysis that gets to the heart of Trump’s bizarre greeting: | The Canadian PM had already demonstrated his core strength with his remarkable plank – but the bicep power to deny the “yank-shake”, as body language expert Peter Collett termed it, is quite something. So what does it mean? Collett provided some expert analysis that gets to the heart of Trump’s bizarre greeting: |
| It enables Trump to impose himself on the situation by catching the other person unawares and doing something that they hadn’t anticipated. After all, when they’re shaking hands with the president, who would expect to have their arm almost wrenched out of its socket? It’s noticeable that Trump’s “yank-shake” has a lot in common with his political pronouncements – they’re erratic, unpredictable and self-serving, and they don’t always conform to the other goals that he’s trying to achieve. | It enables Trump to impose himself on the situation by catching the other person unawares and doing something that they hadn’t anticipated. After all, when they’re shaking hands with the president, who would expect to have their arm almost wrenched out of its socket? It’s noticeable that Trump’s “yank-shake” has a lot in common with his political pronouncements – they’re erratic, unpredictable and self-serving, and they don’t always conform to the other goals that he’s trying to achieve. |
| What do you make of Trump’s signature move? What does it tell us about his personality? | What do you make of Trump’s signature move? What does it tell us about his personality? |
| 1.10pm GMT | 1.10pm GMT |
| 13:10 | 13:10 |
| A last couple of points for now on the Brexit debate which continues below the line following Abi Wilkinson’s earlier post (see here). | A last couple of points for now on the Brexit debate which continues below the line following Abi Wilkinson’s earlier post (see here). |
| Let's give the Northerners a bit of respect. Maybe those folk have actually done their homework and have gained a better understanding of the internal workings of the European institutions than the southerners, and - after much careful consideration - they have deduced that the EU is a less promising model for peace and prosperity than what May, Johnson, Fox and Davis can offer us. They could be right and in a few years' time the southerners will actually be thanking the northerners for their inspiration. | Let's give the Northerners a bit of respect. Maybe those folk have actually done their homework and have gained a better understanding of the internal workings of the European institutions than the southerners, and - after much careful consideration - they have deduced that the EU is a less promising model for peace and prosperity than what May, Johnson, Fox and Davis can offer us. They could be right and in a few years' time the southerners will actually be thanking the northerners for their inspiration. |
| There is no North-South divide on Brexit. The figures show that the only sector of society who had a majority voting to remain in the neo-liberal EU were households on £60k plus. All other sectors had a majority for Leave, with the biggest majority to leave among the low-paid. | There is no North-South divide on Brexit. The figures show that the only sector of society who had a majority voting to remain in the neo-liberal EU were households on £60k plus. All other sectors had a majority for Leave, with the biggest majority to leave among the low-paid. |
| The "divide" is between those who benefitted from the neo-liberal status quo and those whose lives and communities were destroyed by it. | The "divide" is between those who benefitted from the neo-liberal status quo and those whose lives and communities were destroyed by it. |
| We’re going to move on and introduce a few other topics up here, but you can continue to debate the issues already raised – and indeed anything else you think worth talking about – in the comments. | We’re going to move on and introduce a few other topics up here, but you can continue to debate the issues already raised – and indeed anything else you think worth talking about – in the comments. |
| 12.57pm GMT | 12.57pm GMT |
| 12:57 | 12:57 |
| This reader lives in the Copeland constituency, in Cumbria, where a byelection takes place next Thursday. | This reader lives in the Copeland constituency, in Cumbria, where a byelection takes place next Thursday. |
| I'm not sure that the fundamental premise - of a north-south divide on Brexit - is correct. Scotland and Manchester disprove the simple geography of it. The issue is about the 'left behind' communities. I live in the Copeland constituency, and have a by-election next week. All candidates are understandably talking about jobs, but only in the context of propping up the flagging (and already heavily subsidised) nuclear industry. None of the candidates have ideas for how to create wealth, how to stimulate local innovative companies, or where the new generation of jobs might come from. At a national level, this is true whether you're in an ex-mining area (like mine) or an ex-pottery area (like Stoke). The key is the 'ex'. It is those communities that have seen the progressive decline and withdrawal of heavy industry that have so comprehensively rejected old Labour's corporatist approach, and aligh that more generally with a perception of a metropolitan, urban elite, and therefore with the EU. It is not surprising that there is such a debate about the role of the service sector (and financial services in particular) in relation to Brexit, so much of which is concentrated in the south-east. | I'm not sure that the fundamental premise - of a north-south divide on Brexit - is correct. Scotland and Manchester disprove the simple geography of it. The issue is about the 'left behind' communities. I live in the Copeland constituency, and have a by-election next week. All candidates are understandably talking about jobs, but only in the context of propping up the flagging (and already heavily subsidised) nuclear industry. None of the candidates have ideas for how to create wealth, how to stimulate local innovative companies, or where the new generation of jobs might come from. At a national level, this is true whether you're in an ex-mining area (like mine) or an ex-pottery area (like Stoke). The key is the 'ex'. It is those communities that have seen the progressive decline and withdrawal of heavy industry that have so comprehensively rejected old Labour's corporatist approach, and aligh that more generally with a perception of a metropolitan, urban elite, and therefore with the EU. It is not surprising that there is such a debate about the role of the service sector (and financial services in particular) in relation to Brexit, so much of which is concentrated in the south-east. |
| 12.45pm GMT | 12.45pm GMT |
| 12:45 | 12:45 |
| Our new readers' photography project | Our new readers' photography project |
| Matthew Holmes | Matthew Holmes |
| As part of this weekly blog we like to highlight some of the other ways you can get involved on the site, in addition to commenting below the line. | As part of this weekly blog we like to highlight some of the other ways you can get involved on the site, in addition to commenting below the line. |
| Here’s a new project we launched earlier in the week alongside editors on our picture desk, who want to see the results of your photography. | Here’s a new project we launched earlier in the week alongside editors on our picture desk, who want to see the results of your photography. |
| We aim, through the “readers’ picture desk” to showcase some of your best work on set themes, but also to publish advice and feedback from photojournalists and editors here. Do take a look – here are three of my favourite images so far, with different interpretations of the theme “walls and barriers”: | We aim, through the “readers’ picture desk” to showcase some of your best work on set themes, but also to publish advice and feedback from photojournalists and editors here. Do take a look – here are three of my favourite images so far, with different interpretations of the theme “walls and barriers”: |
| Climbers on Welsh cliff | Climbers on Welsh cliff |
| I was walking around the coast and adjacent to the image when I saw the climbers | I was walking around the coast and adjacent to the image when I saw the climbers |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By mfling | By mfling |
| 13 February 2017, 12:01 | 13 February 2017, 12:01 |
| "A Wise Man" Wailing Wall, Jerusalem. | "A Wise Man" Wailing Wall, Jerusalem. |
| This image was captured at the wailing wall in the Old City of Jerusalem in December 2013. I stood and watched as the prayers took place at the wall for several hours and noticed "a wise man" sat in his chair. | This image was captured at the wailing wall in the Old City of Jerusalem in December 2013. I stood and watched as the prayers took place at the wall for several hours and noticed "a wise man" sat in his chair. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By Stephen Norris | By Stephen Norris |
| 13 February 2017, 23:20 | 13 February 2017, 23:20 |
| Trespassing | Trespassing |
| Skateboarders are just as likely to be found exploring abandoned rural industrial estates as we are in towns and cities. This place was known as 'The Moon' due to its smooth white concrete floor being covered in craters. | Skateboarders are just as likely to be found exploring abandoned rural industrial estates as we are in towns and cities. This place was known as 'The Moon' due to its smooth white concrete floor being covered in craters. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By JHawkes | By JHawkes |
| 14 February 2017, 23:57 | 14 February 2017, 23:57 |
| Head of photography Fiona Shields shares some of her wisdom about what makes a great photo in the callout, here. | Head of photography Fiona Shields shares some of her wisdom about what makes a great photo in the callout, here. |
| 12.35pm GMT | 12.35pm GMT |
| 12:35 | 12:35 |
| This reader disagrees with the point on PR and makes a point about media coverage. | This reader disagrees with the point on PR and makes a point about media coverage. |
| It's not the lack of PR that's the problem in England and Wales. (Same mistake again - not all UK democracy has FPTP and that includes elections in Scotland and London, not sure about NI). | It's not the lack of PR that's the problem in England and Wales. (Same mistake again - not all UK democracy has FPTP and that includes elections in Scotland and London, not sure about NI). |
| It's the other stuff. The lack of local government and redistribution that usually also goes with non-majoritarian systems. | It's the other stuff. The lack of local government and redistribution that usually also goes with non-majoritarian systems. |
| I'm from the north east. That region had a referendum on regional assembly in 2004. It was heavily rejected. When offered that, this region said "no thanks" well take London FPTP rule. | I'm from the north east. That region had a referendum on regional assembly in 2004. It was heavily rejected. When offered that, this region said "no thanks" well take London FPTP rule. |
| I said this on Dawn's thread. Media commentators do need not just to fall for convenient lines they get spun about "the north" (which to a lot of them seems to be as local as the moon) or the "working class". You need to remind yourselves of the less convenient realities, sometimes. | I said this on Dawn's thread. Media commentators do need not just to fall for convenient lines they get spun about "the north" (which to a lot of them seems to be as local as the moon) or the "working class". You need to remind yourselves of the less convenient realities, sometimes. |
| (here’s the piece by Dawn Foster they refer to) | (here’s the piece by Dawn Foster they refer to) |
| 12.19pm GMT | 12.19pm GMT |
| 12:19 | 12:19 |
| A fair point on our headline there in an early comment? | A fair point on our headline there in an early comment? |
| Today we will discuss everything from that North-south (or indeed London vs the rest of the country) divide on the issue of Brexit, | Today we will discuss everything from that North-south (or indeed London vs the rest of the country) divide on the issue of Brexit, |
| The most northern part of the UK returned the most decisive vote in the EU referendum. Every Scottish region voted to remain. It is so Guardian to forget about Scotland. | The most northern part of the UK returned the most decisive vote in the EU referendum. Every Scottish region voted to remain. It is so Guardian to forget about Scotland. |
| And this reader addresses Abi Wilkinson’s points | And this reader addresses Abi Wilkinson’s points |
| It's not North - South, or is this an England only conversation? It's the squeezed, unloved and unrepresented middle. We're lucky we have a voice in Scotland, it's just not listened to in this "union of equal partners" | It's not North - South, or is this an England only conversation? It's the squeezed, unloved and unrepresented middle. We're lucky we have a voice in Scotland, it's just not listened to in this "union of equal partners" |
| Leave voters are not all idiots – some Londoners still don't get it: | Leave voters are not all idiots – some Londoners still don't get it: |
| It's not patronising to point out to folk who have been had, that they've been had. Look, I'll do it gently. | It's not patronising to point out to folk who have been had, that they've been had. Look, I'll do it gently. |
| Hiya, leave voters, how are you? Listen mate, you've been had. | Hiya, leave voters, how are you? Listen mate, you've been had. |
| 12.15pm GMT | 12.15pm GMT |
| 12:15 | 12:15 |
| Here’s the comment Abi Wilkinson references in full | Here’s the comment Abi Wilkinson references in full |
| I am glad to see a sympathetic article about this issue, the problem in this country has i believe been a lack of proportional representation, i think many working class voters in the north were angry that their voices were not heard in parliament but instead it was only the voices of the 36% of those who voted tory who get a mention. | I am glad to see a sympathetic article about this issue, the problem in this country has i believe been a lack of proportional representation, i think many working class voters in the north were angry that their voices were not heard in parliament but instead it was only the voices of the 36% of those who voted tory who get a mention. |
| If we are to have a fair country we must have PR as otherwise the governments will only tend to focus on their voters, in the tories case it is the affluent home counties types and older rural dwellers and in Labours case it is students, young professionals in cities and the London poor. | If we are to have a fair country we must have PR as otherwise the governments will only tend to focus on their voters, in the tories case it is the affluent home counties types and older rural dwellers and in Labours case it is students, young professionals in cities and the London poor. |
| What do you think? | What do you think? |
| 12.07pm GMT | 12.07pm GMT |
| 12:07 | 12:07 |
| Leave voters are not all idiots – some Londoners still don't get it | Leave voters are not all idiots – some Londoners still don't get it |
| Abi Wilkinson | Abi Wilkinson |
| Many of the responses to my column this week – about the condescending attitude towards leave voters amongs a small (but vocal) minority of affluent, metropolitan remainers – seemed designed to illustrate my point. Some readers repeated the insults and suggestions that London should stop “sending out” money to poorer regions. Not everyone was so negative, though. | Many of the responses to my column this week – about the condescending attitude towards leave voters amongs a small (but vocal) minority of affluent, metropolitan remainers – seemed designed to illustrate my point. Some readers repeated the insults and suggestions that London should stop “sending out” money to poorer regions. Not everyone was so negative, though. |
| One post that stood out to me, from reader Oliver Elkington, focused on our FPTP electoral system, suggesting it left “working-class voters in the North… angry that their voices were not heard in parliament but instead it was only the voices of the 36% who voted Tory who get a mention.” | One post that stood out to me, from reader Oliver Elkington, focused on our FPTP electoral system, suggesting it left “working-class voters in the North… angry that their voices were not heard in parliament but instead it was only the voices of the 36% who voted Tory who get a mention.” |
| I’d go a step further and suggest that many people living in safe Labour seats don’t even trust their own MP to advocate for their interests. The party has taken votes from certain demographics for granted in recent decades and people have been left with the feeling that all politicians are the same. For many of those people, the EU referendum felt like a unique opportunity to actually influence something. | I’d go a step further and suggest that many people living in safe Labour seats don’t even trust their own MP to advocate for their interests. The party has taken votes from certain demographics for granted in recent decades and people have been left with the feeling that all politicians are the same. For many of those people, the EU referendum felt like a unique opportunity to actually influence something. |
| What do you think? Share your views with us in the comments. | What do you think? Share your views with us in the comments. |
| 10.40am GMT | 10.40am GMT |
| 10:40 | 10:40 |
| Welcome! | Welcome! |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| It’s that time of the week again – your chance to discuss the week with fellow readers and Guardian journalists below the line in the comments. | It’s that time of the week again – your chance to discuss the week with fellow readers and Guardian journalists below the line in the comments. |
| Today we will discuss everything from that North-south (or indeed London vs the rest of the country) divide on the issue of Brexit, going Dutch when dating, fact-checking the fact checkers in the age of Donald Trump (in the wake of his extraordinary recent press conference) and even the return of the Nokia 3210. | Today we will discuss everything from that North-south (or indeed London vs the rest of the country) divide on the issue of Brexit, going Dutch when dating, fact-checking the fact checkers in the age of Donald Trump (in the wake of his extraordinary recent press conference) and even the return of the Nokia 3210. |
| We look forward to hearing your views on all the above and more. Plus – if there’s anything you want to talk about, whether that stems from a piece you’ve seen in the Guardian or elsewhere, just let us know: we hope the conversation will be driven by you! | We look forward to hearing your views on all the above and more. Plus – if there’s anything you want to talk about, whether that stems from a piece you’ve seen in the Guardian or elsewhere, just let us know: we hope the conversation will be driven by you! |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.03pm GMT | at 12.03pm GMT |