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Scottish parliament debates call for second independence referendum - Politics live Scottish parliament debates call for second independence referendum - Politics live
(35 minutes later)
2.22pm GMT 2.58pm GMT
14:22 14:58
Sturgeon says there is a fundamental decision to be taken. It can only be made by the people, she says. Willie Rennie, the Scottish Lib Dem leader, is speaking now.
And that’s it. Her speech is over. Here is his amendment.
Updated As an amendment to motion S5M-04710 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland’s Choice), leave out from “and therefore mandates” to end and insert “; believes that a second referendum on Scottish independence would only compound the uncertainty of Brexit and its risk to the economy, environment and security; notes that all measures of public opinion show that there is no appetite for such a vote; further believes that there is no mandate for another Scottish independence referendum on the basis of the UK leaving the EU when there are no cast-iron guarantees that full membership of the EU will be sought or granted, and supports the development of a positive future for Scotland inside a federal UK.”
at 2.24pm GMT He accuses Harvie of saying manifesto commitments do not count.
2.20pm GMT That prompts angry jeering.
14:20 This is what the Scottish Greens’ manifesto for the Scottish parliament elections said in 2016.
Sturgeon says the SNP will set out its plans for independence, so people can make an informed choice. Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage.
She says that is in contrast to Brexit, where people were not told what it would involve, and where nine months later people still do not know what it will be like. 2.54pm GMT
2.19pm GMT 14:54
14:19 Harvie says leaving the EU is “an act of political wreckage”.
Sturgeon challenges UK government to set out its alternative timetable for a second referendum He says other EU countries will get a vote on the Brexit deal.
Sturgeon says the Scottish parliament should take the decision over the timing of the referendum. But under the UK government’s plans, the people of Scotland would be voiceless. They would be the only voiceless country in Europe, he says. He says that is not acceptable.
She says the latest time for a referendum should be around the time the UK leaves, in the spring of 2019. 2.52pm GMT
If the UK government disagrees, it should set out an alternative timescale, she says. She says she is prepared to discuss an alternative. 14:52
Sturgeon challenges UK government to set out its alternative timetable for a second referendum. Harvie says many leave campaigners said there was no threat to the UK’s place in the single market.
2.15pm GMT Even Ruth Davidson said after the referendum that she wanted the UK to stay in the single market. He says her abandonment of that position has been “disgraceful”.
14:15 He says young voters and foreigner were deliberately excluded from the EU referendum last year. But they should be allowed to vote on the future of the country they live in.
Sturgeon says she understands why many Scots don’t want another referendum. He says the treatment of EU nationals in the UK has been particularly shabby.
But the alternative is to drift through the next two years, hoping for the best, but fearing for the worst. He says the Tory and Labour amendments both read like wishful thinking.
Scotland would have to accept a hard Brexit, she says. 2.45pm GMT
And Scotland would not then have the option to reject that. 14:45
2.13pm GMT Patrick Harvie, the Green party’s co-convenor in Scotland, is speaking now.
14:13 Here is is amendment.
Sturgeon says the UK government rejected her compromise plan for the single market. As an amendment to motion S5M-04710 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland’s Choice), insert at end “; believes that this gives people in Scotland a choice at a time when there is both the most information and most opportunity to act; further believes that 16 and 17-year-olds and EU citizens, who were excluded from the EU referendum, should be entitled to vote, and considers that this referendum is necessary given the Prime Minister’s decision to negotiate a hard exit from the EU, including leaving the single market, which conflicts with assurances given by the UK Government and prominent Leave campaigners, and which takes no account of the overwhelming Remain vote in Scotland.”
And it has also refused to commit to giving repatriated powers from Brussels to Scotland, she says. He acknowledges that people have mixed feelings about a second referendum.
She says the Tories could be in power in Westminster until 2030. He says 2014 was an expression of the will of the people. But so was 2016, he says.
So Scotland should decide what future it wants, she says. 2.43pm GMT
2.10pm GMT 14:43
14:10 Dugdale says leaving the UK would make things worse for the poorest people in Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon's speech In six years in this chamber she has never heard an argument to the contrary, she says.
Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s first minister, is opening the debate. An SNP MSP, Kevin Stewart, says the Tories are making the poor poorer. Would Dugdale be happy to see the Tories in power for the next 10, 20, 30 years?
She says that she offered the UK government a compromise plan that would keep Scotland in the single market after Brexit. The UK government refused that, she says. Dugdale says independence would lead to turbo-charged austerity.
She says the SNP’s manifesto said a second referendum would be justified if there was a material change in circumstances. Brexit qualifies, she says. 2.40pm GMT
She says she did not immediately call for a second referendum after the Brexit vote on 23 June. 14:40
Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, says she heard Sturgeon on the radio that morning saying she had asked civil servants to draw up legislation. Dugdale says Sturgeon says the referendum was not divisive. But Dugdale says from her conversations with people she knows it was. Every family and workplace was divided. And last Monday, when Sturgeon announced her call for a referendum, felt just as divisive as the final day of the last campaign.
Sturgeon says she said at the time she would seek a compromise first. She says she believes in the union, as a living, breathing union of countries in the UK.
2.05pm GMT 2.37pm GMT
14:05 14:37
MSPs debate call for second independence referendum Dugdale says the SNP used to say the will of the Scottish people should be respected. But it was expressed in 2014. More than 2m Scots voted to remain in the UK. That is the will of the Scottish people and that is what should be respected, she says.
The Scottish parliament is now debating Nicola Sturgeon’s call for a second independence referendum. 2.35pm GMT
Here is the motion. 14:35
That the parliament acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and therefore mandates the Scottish government to take forward discussions with the UK government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held that will give the people of Scotland a choice over the future direction and governance of their country at a time, and with a question and franchise, determined by the Scottish parliament, which would most appropriately be between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019. Kezia Dugdale's speech
Updated Kezia Dugdale, the Scottish Labour leader, is speaking now.
at 2.23pm GMT Here is her amendment.
1.39pm GMT As an amendment to motion S5M-04710 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland’s Choice), leave out from “and therefore mandates” to end and insert “; believes that a strong Scottish Parliament within a federal UK would meet these needs; recognises that the overwhelming will of the Scottish people is that there should be no second divisive independence referendum; believes that far from giving Scots a choice, a second independence referendum would only increase uncertainty and cause greater division as the UK faces a hard Tory Brexit, and asserts that there should be no second independence referendum.”
13:39 She says she wishes they were having a debate about education.
Urgent question on Global Laundromat revelations - Verdict But they are debating independence because that is all that matters to the SNP.
And here is a verdict on the UQ from my colleagues Luke Harding and Nick Hopkins. 2.33pm GMT
Labour politicians were clearly unimpressed by assurances from Simon Kirby that the government has got a grip on money laundering. It hasn’t. Today’s Guardian Laundromat story shows how profound the problem is: $740m flowed through UK banks and nobody noticed. 14:33
Kirby said that the National Crime Agency (NCA) was investigating. But when we went to see the NCA last week it admitted Moscow was refusing to cooperate. Without active help from Russian authorities it’s difficult to see how detectives can arrest money launderers or stop similar schemes in future. Davidson says five times in the last six months the SNP government has ignored the wishes of the Scottish parliament.
For the moment, then, it’s easy for anyone to set up a UK limited company and use it for criminal purposes. This point was made by the SNP’s Roger Mullin who noted – correctly – that limited partnerships were at the heart of the Laundromat scandal. One of the companies we found, Seabon Limited, claimed its assets were £1. In fact, it was involved in transactions worth $9bn. So why should the UK government recognise votes in the Scottish parliament when the Scottish government does not do so?
The most intriguing question came from Labour’s Ben Bradshaw, who wanted to know if any of the Laundromat billions had gone to fund the Trump campaign or Leave.EU. We don’t know the answer. But there are clear signs that some of the money has gone to support pro-Kremlin thinktanks and parties across Europe. 2.32pm GMT
Updated 14:32
at 2.21pm GMT Davidson says the SNP said the will of the people should drive a second referendum.
1.37pm GMT But there is none, she says.
13:37 She allows an intervention from Patrick Harvie, the Green co-convenor, saying he is going against his own manifesto.
Urgent question on Global Laundromat revelations - Summary Harvie says the Tory manifesto said the UK would stay in the single market.
Recently it was revealed that Simon Kirby, the City minister, had been stripped of his responsibility for Brexit-related matters. A City source told the Sun that Kirby was someone with “no knowledge, no experience and no apparent interest in the City”. Kirby did not do much to restore his reputation with his response to today’s UQ. He floundered badly, prompting unusually harsh criticism from the oppositon. Davidson says the government wants to keep access to the single market.
Here are the key points. 2.29pm GMT
Labour accused the government of “complacency and inaction” over money-laundering. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, told MPs after hearing Kirby’s opening statement: 14:29
I don’t believe the minister recognises the immense gravity of the situation we are facing and that statement reflected, I believe, a complacency on behalf of the government itself ... Money-laundering through London and elsewhere threatens the financial stability of our economy ... It obvious from today’s revelations that the current arrangements are not working. There is widespread, organised and sophisticated criminal activity ... Urgent action is needed by the government to protect the standing of our finance sector and indeed protect our economy. Complacency and inaction is not good enough. Davidson says the SNP motion amounts to a “bulldozer” approach.
Later other Labour MPs criticised Kirby very strongly. John Mann said he gave the impression of being over-promoted. (See 12.53pm.) Angela Eagle said he was “appallingly complacent”. (See 1.04pm.) Rushanara Ali also said his performance was “appalling”. (See 1.08pm.) That is not what happened in 2014, she says. She says the terms of that referendum were agreed in talks with Westminster.
McDonnell called for an inquiry into what measures might be needed to strengthen money-laundering laws. She says the SNP described the approach taken in 2014 as “the gold standard approach”. This is not the gold standard approach, she says.
Kirby said the latest Guardian allegations would be investigated. She accuses the SNP of rushing to any microphone “with the angry face on” and making the same old complaints.
The Financial Conduct Authority and the National Crime Agency take any such allegations seriously and will investigate closely whether recent information from the Guardian newspaper regarding money laundering from Russia, or indeed any other media source, would allow the progression of an investigation. It won’t work, she says.
He claimed the government was doing “more than any other” to tackle money-laundering. She says most people in Scotland are sick and tired of these old games.
This government already does more than any other to tackle the global threat of money-laundering. Since 2010 we have already seized £1.bn in illegal funds and put hundreds of millions more beyond the reach of criminals. We have set up the Panama Papers taskforce, we have hosted the global anti-corruption summit last year and now we are preparing the most significant changes to our anti money-laundering and terrorist finances regime in over a decade ... We are determined to make the UK the most difficult place in the world for international crime networks to channel their finances and we won’t relent in our efforts to do that. She says Brexit will pose challenges. Why start an independence campaign now when we don’t know how it will play out?
Updated And the SNP cannot answer basic questions, such as what the currency will be.
at 1.45pm GMT The first minister wants a date, but she cannot give us a plan.
1.37pm GMT
13:37
Jessica Elgot
On Tuesday morning, Theresa May told a cabinet meeting that the triggering of article 50 next Wednesday would be a “historic event and will precipitate a shift in our role in the world see Britain begin a bold new chapter as a prosperous, open and global nation.”
No 10 said the prime minister had told cabinet ministers that the letter would be “one of the most important docs in our country’s recent history and will start to deliver the result of the referendum and set the tone for our new relationship with Europe and the world.”
The content has not been finalised and was not discussed, the spokesman said. A meeting of the cabinet will be held next Wednesday, the day of notification, to discuss the letter, he said.
During the meeting, May stressed her desire to come to a swift agreement on the rights of EU citizens living in the EU and those of British citizens in the EU, the spokesman said, as well as praising the work of the cabinet sub-committee on exit and trade, calling it a “strong platform” from which to start negotiations.
May said she expected negotiations to be “smooth and orderly, giving certainty to individuals and businesses and allowing us to make preparation that will see an independent UK prospering outside the EU.”
A white paper on the great repeal bill, which will migrate existing EU laws directly into British law after the UK leaves the EU, is expected to be published by David Davis shortly after the letter is sent next week.
Updated
at 2.22pm GMT
1.08pm GMT
13:08
Labour’s Rushanara Ali says Philip Hammond, the chancellor, should have been here. She says Kirby’s answers have been “appalling”.
Kirby says he is sorry that Ali thinks that.
And that’s it. The UQ is over. I will post a summary shortly.
1.06pm GMT
13:06
Labour’s Kerry McCarthy says the Russian authorities are refusing to cooperate with the National Crime Agency. What is the Foreign Office doing about this?
Kirby says he thinks the FCA are in contact with the Foreign Office about this. He says if there is new information, the FCA and the NCA will act on it.
1.04pm GMT
13:04
Here is Labour’s Angela Eagle, who asked Kirby a question earlier (see 12.51pm), responding to his performance.
Appalling complacent blinkered response from the Economic Secretary to today's money laundering allegations in @guardian #Justnotgoodenough
1.03pm GMT
13:03
Labour’s Ian Austin says the home affairs committee has estimated that £100bn is laundered through the UK. But only 0.17% of it gets detected. What is necessary to make the authorities do their jobs?
Kirby says the FCA and the NCA are independent. They do investigate, he says.
Updated
at 1.04pm GMT
1.01pm GMT
13:01
The Lib Dem’s Greg Mulholland asks what will happen if the government secures its aim of turning the UK into a tax haven.
Kirby says that is not the chancellor’s policy.
1.00pm GMT
13:00
Labour’s Catherine McKinnell asks if Kirby accepts that the law on money-laundering needs to be tightened.
Kirby says the Ministry of Justice will have heard what McKinnell said.
12.58pm GMT
12:58
Labour’s Ben Bradshaw asks if any laundered money was donated to the leave campaign or to the Trump campaign.
Kirby says he is not aware of any donations of that kind.
12.58pm GMT
12:58
Philip Hollobone, a Conservative, asks how many money launderers have been sent to prison in the past five years.
Kirby says he does not know, but will write to Hollobone with an answer.
Updated
at 1.01pm GMT
12.56pm GMT
12:56
Jonathan Djanogly, a Conservative, says Russians are allowed into the UK on the assumption they will do nothing wrong.
Kirby says the authorities will address any action that needs to be taken to tackle this problem.
Updated
at 12.58pm GMT