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| What do you think of the Labour manifesto? Join us for a live discussion | What do you think of the Labour manifesto? Join us for a live discussion |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.04pm BST | |
| 13:04 | |
| 'The voting public don't spend much time poring over manifestos' | |
| Here are two questions from feliciafarrell, and our final Guardian contributor contribution for this webchat. | |
| 1. Do manifestos actually make any real difference to the way people vote? Most of the colleagues I have asked recently have no intention of looking at policies, some of them even asked me what I meant by ‘policies’ – making comments like: “well I always voted Labour so I will again” or “it’s the personality that matters not the policies” or “you can say or promise anything, but ultimately the morality and ability of the leadership and team is what matters as regards the implementation of those promises”. | |
| 2. Is a flat corporation tax rate proposed or will it be ‘progressive’? I agree with taxing large profits of large companies much more, but SME’s need all the help they can get, and surely raising taxes will simply dampen enterprise? | |
| Hi there! I think it's fair to say that the voting public don't spend much time pouring over manifestos - in fact, most people (unlike losers like me) spend very very little time thinking about politics at all, even during a general election campaign. That's why when the commentariat mock the Tories much-mocked slogans, it misses the point a bit - because their ears might be bleeding, but much of the public won't even have noticed them. That's why a clear vision is important that's constantly repeated and which binds the policies together: the policies then just reinforce the vision. Labour is settling on 'for the many, not the few': but also realising Britain's potential, arguing the Tories are holding it back. Will it cut through? Some would argue campaigns rarely turn change people's minds, but Labour have to hope their compelling vision can turn things around. | |
| 1.02pm BST | |
| 13:02 | |
| Anne Perkins’ final comment of the session was in response to herero, who made this point: | |
| If this [manifesto] does nothing else it moves the conversation away from the stagnant supposed verities that have held for 35 years. | |
| I wish it did, herero. My concern is that it puts them right back there. It's good that it challenges austerity, and reminds us how inured we have become to it. But to move the debate on would I think have required fewer projects, deeper thinking and less seemingly automatic reliance on the power of the state. Labour can argue it was bounced into a producing its programme prematurely, but then it would have been wiser, surely , only to have sketched out a direction of travel with a couple of landmarks rather than tried to put together a detailed picture. Unless of course this exercise really isn't anything to do with the election. Hmm. | |
| But herero isn’t sure. | |
| Surely the eternal verity of the last thirty years is that we can't rely on the state and we can't restore income tax at all to pay for the services we once had. Isn't it that needs challenging ? | |
| What do you think? | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.02pm BST | |
| 12.57pm BST | |
| 12:57 | |
| Zoe Williams | |
| I’d also like to address reader Colin’s points about policies vs leadership, answered earlier by Hugh Muir. | |
| Narratives get a bad rap – as you say, it doesn’t give you a brilliant idea of what will actually happen to your nation and your life, to hear someone intoning “strong and stable”, or even “for the many, not the few”. But the danger of putting all your faith in policies is that a) it turns into a kind of consumer politics. We’ll cap your energy bills. We’ll give carers 10 quid more a week. It’s an approach I find a little bit disheartening because it’s so rudderless, conceiving government as a kind of sugar daddy, who can afford to step in between you and the big bad world, until suddenly he can’t. | |
| I think you have to start closer to the source of the problem: where do we want our energy to come from? How do we want to find it (by fracking or solar?), who do we want to fund it (the state or a global corporation?), how do we want to distribute it (into the national grid and out again, or locally?). And those become large value questions – environmentalism, state investment in infrastructure, subsidiarity. I would much rather see those promises than a pledge on bills. The leadership question is always a combination of bigotry and post-hoc bollocs – if it’s a white man, he’s a natural leader, once a leader becomes a leader, hark how leaderly they are. That doesn’t mean some people don’t inherently suck at it, but there are very varied ways to excel at leadership. | |
| 12.52pm BST | |
| 12:52 | |
| Matthew Holmes | |
| We’re going to wrap up the discussion above the line shortly, but you can continue to debate and discuss in the comments. Here are a selection of your recent contributions: | |
| ‘I never thought that I would see myself as a Corbyn convert’ | |
| We have been waiting for 18 months to see Corbyn show that he can act like a leader and as a possible Prime minister. | |
| Now, we can see that Labour can pull together and give coherent policies that will benefit us all. | |
| I never thought that I would see myself as a Corbyn convert, but in the last week, I have seen the real qualities of the man shine through. He wants to talk about policies, the Tories just want to insult and give platitudes. | |
| The one important point is that May and the Tories are trying to paint themselves as being whiter then white, but the only way they can be white is under the guise of wolves in sheep's clothing. Meanwhile, Corbyn ignores the insults and just says "I am what you see. Take me at face value". | |
| Unlike the abysmal May as we don't know which face she is wearing. | |
| ‘It’s a great manifesto, but is it electable?’ | |
| I didn't vote for Corbyn, but I think that, of course, this is a great manifesto. That's kind of part of the problem; it shows no restraint, no compromise or negotiation to neoliberal late capitalism. | |
| My feeling is that unfortunately, tragically, the game is rigged and that to become an elected Labour party the leader has to appeal to the centre ground and modernise Labour's core values. Corbyn hasn't done this. | |
| It's a great manifesto. Truly, it's exciting that they seem to be saying 'we won't play the game, enough is enough, the system isn't working', and I'll be volunteering to help the Labour party throughout the campaign. | |
| So it's great, but is it electable? I really hope it is. I've let the downbeat, cynical 'well this game is over' feeling be replaced by 'could this actually happen?' so let's see. | |
| The takehome message is: vote for it, and get others to vote for it, and do your best to make it happen. | |
| GAME ON. | |
| ‘Free tuition for all courses for all people would be a poor use of public money’ | |
| There are good things to be fair but the manifesto seems to me to contain too many high spend, Ill thought pledges. | |
| Top of those are tuition fees - free tuition for all courses for all people would be a poor use of public money. We already have many graduates who can't get jobs beyond entry level stuff a school leaver can do because they hold degrees that don't map to the well paying job opportunities that exist. Reinstating bursaries for Nursing etc and cutting fees for courses that are important for the economy and NHS would represent a more targeted, thought out approach. | |
| Nationalising the railways effectively can't be done within this parliament due to franchise lengths. Given a tory government can come back in and repeal it, I can't see the point of wasting time on this. Just put all energy into reducing fares and electrification/signalling improvement that can cut journeys and boost capacity. | |
| Do click on the links to jump straight to the comment and get involved in the discussion. | |
| 12.41pm BST | |
| 12:41 | |
| 'In an ideal world the election would be all about policies' | |
| Hugh Muir | |
| By email Colin asks: | |
| What is this election about, policies or leadership? The Conservatives and most of the mainstream media, print and television, are fixated on questions about style over substance. It has become the narrative of this election. Clearly the Tories are happy with that because they believe they are too far ahead. Is it possible for that emphasis on style of leadership to be replaced by debate about policies in the remaining four weeks of this election, and as a result will the pollsters, pundits (and the Conservatives) be confounded? | |
| Colin, I think that in an ideal world the election would be all about policies. When you get to that ideal world, let me know and I’ll join you. In this world – media fixated, celebrity obsessed – the personalities do matter. I think the Corbyn project tried to do things differently, but it’s been a bit like walking onto a football pitch and trying to play rugby. It’s silly that people will focus on a leader’s jacket at the Cenotaph, but they will and they do. | |
| I think people will accept leaders of varying personalities – Atlee was very different from Heath who was different from Thatcher who was very different from Blair; but it has to be someone with qualities they recognise favourably. I don’t think the current leadership has achieved that. The sadness today is that Labour has a manifesto with ideas a great many people outside the Labour movement can identify with but has a leader about whom too many people have already made an adverse judgement. | |
| 12.35pm BST | |
| 12:35 | |
| Now, an interesting hypothetical on the NHS from a reader in the comments: | |
| Imagine there is no NHS today and along come a party promoting a national health service free at the point need.. we would have the tories and right wing media saying it would be crazy and complete left wing lunacy to even consider a scheme like this.. and as we all know the NHS has saved and served thousands of lives over the decades since its founding. So I think the labour manifesto is good for what it is promoting but will always be attacked by vested interest who like to keep people poor and needy so the rich can be more deserving to their lives as the deserving rich. I find it illogical any working person not voting to securing a good health service, a good social system and a good education for all children is strange. But that is what the Tories and the media are good at, using smoke and mirrors to make out that they really have the average persons best interest at heart, believe that, and for a small fee I will arrange a meeting with Elvis for you | |
| 12.30pm BST | 12.30pm BST |
| 12:30 | 12:30 |
| 'Labour faces the mother-of-all uphill battles' | 'Labour faces the mother-of-all uphill battles' |
| Reader Maternityadvice is a fan of the manifesto, but wary of the press: | Reader Maternityadvice is a fan of the manifesto, but wary of the press: |
| I think the 2017 Labour Manifesto is a welcome breath of fresh air. I hope every Labour candidate will go out and inspire the public with it. I also hope they will point out the ways in which the right wing press, including the BBC, is trying to turn people against policies that will give them much better rights and a much kinder and more hopeful future. | I think the 2017 Labour Manifesto is a welcome breath of fresh air. I hope every Labour candidate will go out and inspire the public with it. I also hope they will point out the ways in which the right wing press, including the BBC, is trying to turn people against policies that will give them much better rights and a much kinder and more hopeful future. |
| As we know, Labour face the mother-of-all uphill battles, and as you note, almost the entire British press is hostile. It's worth noting that the British press are aggressively opposed to all of the individual policies, but polls nonetheless show they have huge support among the British public, which demonstrates that the idea the press simply represent their readers' view is untrue. You're right about the importance of campaigning, though. Though the press play a devastatingly important role in defining the terms of political debate in this country, people aren't robots or sheep who are programmed what to think. Labour has a huge grassroots army which can get its message across - and if you're one of those who want to stop a terrible Tory landslide, time to get out there and campaign! | As we know, Labour face the mother-of-all uphill battles, and as you note, almost the entire British press is hostile. It's worth noting that the British press are aggressively opposed to all of the individual policies, but polls nonetheless show they have huge support among the British public, which demonstrates that the idea the press simply represent their readers' view is untrue. You're right about the importance of campaigning, though. Though the press play a devastatingly important role in defining the terms of political debate in this country, people aren't robots or sheep who are programmed what to think. Labour has a huge grassroots army which can get its message across - and if you're one of those who want to stop a terrible Tory landslide, time to get out there and campaign! |
| 12.22pm BST | 12.22pm BST |
| 12:22 | 12:22 |
| Zoe Williams | Zoe Williams |
| Let’s hear from Nat, another Guardian Member, via email: | Let’s hear from Nat, another Guardian Member, via email: |
| I started as a somewhat sceptical Corbyn supporter (I put him second in the first leadership race, then didn’t vote in the second), but over time became slowly disillusioned ... However this manifesto is more up my alley than I could have ever hoped for, proposing all the things that I want and seemingly proposing them in a manner that I think will be popular. My worry (and question) is will this lead to all these ideas being totally discredited if Corbyn doesn’t win? If Corbyn does lose then I think this will be down to how much people dislike Corbyn’s leadership and his public perception rather than the ideas in this manifesto, but do you think that the more right-leaning aspects of the party will use this to attempt to sweep away all the Corbyn policies that are proposed in this manifesto in a bid to be seen as “more electable” when the next election comes around? | I started as a somewhat sceptical Corbyn supporter (I put him second in the first leadership race, then didn’t vote in the second), but over time became slowly disillusioned ... However this manifesto is more up my alley than I could have ever hoped for, proposing all the things that I want and seemingly proposing them in a manner that I think will be popular. My worry (and question) is will this lead to all these ideas being totally discredited if Corbyn doesn’t win? If Corbyn does lose then I think this will be down to how much people dislike Corbyn’s leadership and his public perception rather than the ideas in this manifesto, but do you think that the more right-leaning aspects of the party will use this to attempt to sweep away all the Corbyn policies that are proposed in this manifesto in a bid to be seen as “more electable” when the next election comes around? |
| Hi Nat, me too, on every count. I started in the same place, have had the same disillusionment, now have the same anxieties. I think, whatever happens, whether Corbyn loses big or small or even wins, there will be a bitter fight afterwards, as he maintains they lost because they weren’t left wing enough, and his party’s centrists try to get closer to a “mainstream” which, itself, is becoming more and more right-wing. All my energies are going into trying to forge a progressive alliance, so that the important issues – environment, equality, dignity in the workplace and beyond, what ambitious modernity looks like – aren’t lost in the scramble to look “realistic”, while the talents within the party and beyond, among Lib Dems, Greens, WEP etc, are cherished rather than pitted against each other. Come to the launch on Monday! | Hi Nat, me too, on every count. I started in the same place, have had the same disillusionment, now have the same anxieties. I think, whatever happens, whether Corbyn loses big or small or even wins, there will be a bitter fight afterwards, as he maintains they lost because they weren’t left wing enough, and his party’s centrists try to get closer to a “mainstream” which, itself, is becoming more and more right-wing. All my energies are going into trying to forge a progressive alliance, so that the important issues – environment, equality, dignity in the workplace and beyond, what ambitious modernity looks like – aren’t lost in the scramble to look “realistic”, while the talents within the party and beyond, among Lib Dems, Greens, WEP etc, are cherished rather than pitted against each other. Come to the launch on Monday! |
| 12.18pm BST | 12.18pm BST |
| 12:18 | 12:18 |
| Here’s an exchange that’s getting you talking – on the issue of nationalisation. | Here’s an exchange that’s getting you talking – on the issue of nationalisation. |
| Corbyn's critics will say that Britain cannot afford these policies. | Corbyn's critics will say that Britain cannot afford these policies. |
| But this country used to have nationalised railways and utilities, until the 1990s. So one of the following must be true: | But this country used to have nationalised railways and utilities, until the 1990s. So one of the following must be true: |
| - Either Corbyn's critics are making dishonest, doom-laden forecasts to scare voters for political purposes (another Project Fear)- Or Britain is poorer than it used to be. In which case, this reflects an abject failure of the free market, laissez faire, neoliberal and globalist economic model that we've used for the past 40 years courtesy of Thatcherism and Blairism. | - Either Corbyn's critics are making dishonest, doom-laden forecasts to scare voters for political purposes (another Project Fear)- Or Britain is poorer than it used to be. In which case, this reflects an abject failure of the free market, laissez faire, neoliberal and globalist economic model that we've used for the past 40 years courtesy of Thatcherism and Blairism. |
| Either way - Corbyn is right. | Either way - Corbyn is right. |
| And this reader agrees the focus shouldn’t just be on rail. | And this reader agrees the focus shouldn’t just be on rail. |
| Not just railways and utilities. B Airways, Post Office Telephones, Coal, Steel, some pubs, Rolls Royce, British Leyland, Shipping, BR hotels etc. All paid for by thr state. As Keith Joseph complained Britain was said to be the most socialist country apart from the Soviet Union. Talking to some elderly people they tell me people were more happier. The basic rate of tax was 33% and VAT was only about 8% I think. | Not just railways and utilities. B Airways, Post Office Telephones, Coal, Steel, some pubs, Rolls Royce, British Leyland, Shipping, BR hotels etc. All paid for by thr state. As Keith Joseph complained Britain was said to be the most socialist country apart from the Soviet Union. Talking to some elderly people they tell me people were more happier. The basic rate of tax was 33% and VAT was only about 8% I think. |
| What do you think? Get involved in the discussion by clicking the links on the comments. | What do you think? Get involved in the discussion by clicking the links on the comments. |
| 12.10pm BST | 12.10pm BST |
| 12:10 | 12:10 |
| 'It's a bit rich of the Tories to talk about "back to the 1970s"' | 'It's a bit rich of the Tories to talk about "back to the 1970s"' |
| Back to the comments again now, and a question from ElderlyGoose: | Back to the comments again now, and a question from ElderlyGoose: |
| I like the manifesto. It’s refreshing as it covers a lot of things that effect me daily but not just me but my family, friends and coworkers. It’s the first time in years I can remember being interested to read a manifesto. | I like the manifesto. It’s refreshing as it covers a lot of things that effect me daily but not just me but my family, friends and coworkers. It’s the first time in years I can remember being interested to read a manifesto. |
| The main problem I have with it is the negative spin. If there’s real negative points I’d like to hear them but the nonsense spin, “back to 1970” isn’t helping. | The main problem I have with it is the negative spin. If there’s real negative points I’d like to hear them but the nonsense spin, “back to 1970” isn’t helping. |
| Labour have to hammer away that this is a forward-looking manifesto (which it is). Our infrastructure is creaking, particularly outside of London: we need to be able to invest, upgrade and modernise. Also a bit rich of the Tories to talk about 'back to the 1970s' when their flagship pledges currently include grammar schools and ripping foxes apart. | Labour have to hammer away that this is a forward-looking manifesto (which it is). Our infrastructure is creaking, particularly outside of London: we need to be able to invest, upgrade and modernise. Also a bit rich of the Tories to talk about 'back to the 1970s' when their flagship pledges currently include grammar schools and ripping foxes apart. |
| 12.05pm BST | 12.05pm BST |
| 12:05 | 12:05 |
| 'The hostile press will say the sums don’t add up even if they are historically watertight' | 'The hostile press will say the sums don’t add up even if they are historically watertight' |
| Hugh Muir | Hugh Muir |
| I’d also like to address ther question Eric asks, which Owen Jones has answered below. | I’d also like to address ther question Eric asks, which Owen Jones has answered below. |
| I think it’s going to be hard to make a judgement until next week when we see the full manifesto and the costings. A word of caution, the hostile press will say the sums don’t add up even if they are historically watertight. To some extent that will be because we stick to a long established, and many would say, a tired template about how revenue can credibly be raised and about what the spending priorities should be. If Labour encourages blue sky thinking about that template - so we spend talk about spending less on useless weaponry and vanity projects and more on social care, schools, for example, that would be a good thing and quite in spirit of these times when so many assumptions are being questioned. | I think it’s going to be hard to make a judgement until next week when we see the full manifesto and the costings. A word of caution, the hostile press will say the sums don’t add up even if they are historically watertight. To some extent that will be because we stick to a long established, and many would say, a tired template about how revenue can credibly be raised and about what the spending priorities should be. If Labour encourages blue sky thinking about that template - so we spend talk about spending less on useless weaponry and vanity projects and more on social care, schools, for example, that would be a good thing and quite in spirit of these times when so many assumptions are being questioned. |
| So there are two issues here 1) Do Labour’s sums add up within the financial template we use? 2) Shouldn’t we now do away, or at least seriously question with that template? | So there are two issues here 1) Do Labour’s sums add up within the financial template we use? 2) Shouldn’t we now do away, or at least seriously question with that template? |
| 12.04pm BST | 12.04pm BST |
| 12:04 | 12:04 |
| Keep your questions coming. We’ll continue to post some of the most interesting exchanges up here, and our writers will do their best to continue to get involved below the line. | Keep your questions coming. We’ll continue to post some of the most interesting exchanges up here, and our writers will do their best to continue to get involved below the line. |
| 11.57am BST | 11.57am BST |
| 11:57 | 11:57 |
| Reader localnotail is in the comments in Birmingham: | Reader localnotail is in the comments in Birmingham: |
| I would like to know what specific measures will be brought into place to help cities across the regions who have seen their public services pared down to a bare minimum by austerity. | I would like to know what specific measures will be brought into place to help cities across the regions who have seen their public services pared down to a bare minimum by austerity. |
| Here in Birmingham, the £560m Council budget cuts since 2010 have brought the city to its knees. So much has already been lost, with more to come under current funding. | Here in Birmingham, the £560m Council budget cuts since 2010 have brought the city to its knees. So much has already been lost, with more to come under current funding. |
| What hope can Labour offer us worried Brummies (and the similarly screwed Scousers, and the rest of the UK) that this will be addressed? Will we even still have our wonderful public parks by 2020? | What hope can Labour offer us worried Brummies (and the similarly screwed Scousers, and the rest of the UK) that this will be addressed? Will we even still have our wonderful public parks by 2020? |
| Local government was a big miss. I don't recall anything about the regressive council tax nor about this government's determined push to offload spending onto city halls. Nor did I detect any serious thinking about the role local government could play in developing local economies. And - on a different but related subject - no sign of any new thinking about the NHS reconfiguration and its relationship with social care which is at the heart of sustainability of the health service. More money is essential, but so is reform. | Local government was a big miss. I don't recall anything about the regressive council tax nor about this government's determined push to offload spending onto city halls. Nor did I detect any serious thinking about the role local government could play in developing local economies. And - on a different but related subject - no sign of any new thinking about the NHS reconfiguration and its relationship with social care which is at the heart of sustainability of the health service. More money is essential, but so is reform. |
| And here’s a response – you can join the conversation by clicking the links to the comments. | And here’s a response – you can join the conversation by clicking the links to the comments. |
| If Labour really want to gain power then they need to address the regions directly and try to get their traditional heartlands back on side. We have been abandoned by everyone, that's why UKIP have flourished. OK, many of the UKIP lot are Empire-drunk profiteerers who are frightened of people who don't speak English and want to be rich by becoming unregulated. But a lot of them are just regular British people who have seen their region's funding dry up and their public services fail, and no-one has stopped it. Just look at the most articulate guy on the UKIP Party Political Broadcast - right at the start. https://youtu.be/eghZ7mE-MFA?t=29s - He's a Labour guy, but he thinks they aren't listening. | If Labour really want to gain power then they need to address the regions directly and try to get their traditional heartlands back on side. We have been abandoned by everyone, that's why UKIP have flourished. OK, many of the UKIP lot are Empire-drunk profiteerers who are frightened of people who don't speak English and want to be rich by becoming unregulated. But a lot of them are just regular British people who have seen their region's funding dry up and their public services fail, and no-one has stopped it. Just look at the most articulate guy on the UKIP Party Political Broadcast - right at the start. https://youtu.be/eghZ7mE-MFA?t=29s - He's a Labour guy, but he thinks they aren't listening. |