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| Oskar Eustis on Trump, ‘Julius Caesar’ and the Politics of Theater | Oskar Eustis on Trump, ‘Julius Caesar’ and the Politics of Theater |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| The Public Theater’s Shakespeare in the Park production of “Julius Caesar” opened on Monday night under unusual circumstances: A firestorm of criticism from the right over the use of an actor styled as President Trump to portray Caesar, and then knifed to death as part of the story, led three major corporate donors to distance themselves from the show. | The Public Theater’s Shakespeare in the Park production of “Julius Caesar” opened on Monday night under unusual circumstances: A firestorm of criticism from the right over the use of an actor styled as President Trump to portray Caesar, and then knifed to death as part of the story, led three major corporate donors to distance themselves from the show. |
| After the opening-night performance, and before the party that followed, Oskar Eustis, artistic director of the Public and director of the “Julius Caesar” production, sat down in the Delacorte Theater for a few minutes to answer questions about the matter. | After the opening-night performance, and before the party that followed, Oskar Eustis, artistic director of the Public and director of the “Julius Caesar” production, sat down in the Delacorte Theater for a few minutes to answer questions about the matter. |
| [Read why “Julius Caesar” speaks to the politics of today.] | [Read why “Julius Caesar” speaks to the politics of today.] |
| He noted that a few years earlier there had been an American production of the play in which Caesar was Obama-like, and no controversy had ensued. He also sharply criticized The New York Times for publishing a review of the play, which defended the staging, before the official opening. The Times cited the unfolding controversy as a rationale for doing so, but Mr. Eustis argued that the publication had become a tool of the outrage machine. | He noted that a few years earlier there had been an American production of the play in which Caesar was Obama-like, and no controversy had ensued. He also sharply criticized The New York Times for publishing a review of the play, which defended the staging, before the official opening. The Times cited the unfolding controversy as a rationale for doing so, but Mr. Eustis argued that the publication had become a tool of the outrage machine. |
| These are edited excerpts from the conversation. | These are edited excerpts from the conversation. |
| What were you trying to tell us about our politics today with this particular staging? | What were you trying to tell us about our politics today with this particular staging? |
| We have faced a transition and a set of electoral choices, which are clearly destabilizing our democratic norms. Now, the question is, How do we respond to that? What do we do about it? And this, if you will, is a progressive’s nightmare vision of that. | We have faced a transition and a set of electoral choices, which are clearly destabilizing our democratic norms. Now, the question is, How do we respond to that? What do we do about it? And this, if you will, is a progressive’s nightmare vision of that. |
| For me, the whole thing is an anxiety nightmare parable about our current state, and that’s why it looks the way it looks. | For me, the whole thing is an anxiety nightmare parable about our current state, and that’s why it looks the way it looks. |
| Is Trump Caesar? | Is Trump Caesar? |
| Of course not. Julius Caesar is Julius Caesar. What we are doing is what we try and do in every production, which is make the dramatic stakes as real and powerful for contemporary people as we can, in our time and our place. | Of course not. Julius Caesar is Julius Caesar. What we are doing is what we try and do in every production, which is make the dramatic stakes as real and powerful for contemporary people as we can, in our time and our place. |
| Did you anticipate the outrage? | Did you anticipate the outrage? |
| No. But all of this stuff is not about my production of “Julius Caesar.” This is about the right-wing hate machine. Those thousands of people who are calling our corporate sponsors to complain about this — none of them have seen the show. They’re not interested in seeing the show. They haven’t read “Julius Caesar.” They are being manipulated by “Fox & Friends” and other news sources, which are deliberately, for their own gain, trying to rile people up and turn them against an imagined enemy, which we are not. | No. But all of this stuff is not about my production of “Julius Caesar.” This is about the right-wing hate machine. Those thousands of people who are calling our corporate sponsors to complain about this — none of them have seen the show. They’re not interested in seeing the show. They haven’t read “Julius Caesar.” They are being manipulated by “Fox & Friends” and other news sources, which are deliberately, for their own gain, trying to rile people up and turn them against an imagined enemy, which we are not. |
| You know by this point that my mentee and dear friend, Rob Melrose, did a production in 2012 with Obama as Caesar. That production played all over the country. Not one peep from anybody. | You know by this point that my mentee and dear friend, Rob Melrose, did a production in 2012 with Obama as Caesar. That production played all over the country. Not one peep from anybody. |
| So this is not about my play or my production of a play. This is really an example of what this kind of demagoguery does. | So this is not about my play or my production of a play. This is really an example of what this kind of demagoguery does. |
| So you did not see this coming? | So you did not see this coming? |
| I thought there might be some fuss. I did not see this. | I thought there might be some fuss. I did not see this. |
| Did you give any kinds of heads-up to either your board or your donors? | Did you give any kinds of heads-up to either your board or your donors? |
| No. I was not secret about what I was doing. And lots and lots of people saw it. Twenty thousand people saw it before anything went on Breitbart and there were maybe eight, nine complaints. | No. I was not secret about what I was doing. And lots and lots of people saw it. Twenty thousand people saw it before anything went on Breitbart and there were maybe eight, nine complaints. |
| Did you get any queasy feelings when the Kathy Griffin controversy happened? | Did you get any queasy feelings when the Kathy Griffin controversy happened? |
| We noticed, and we went, “Whoops!” But, of course, we knew we weren’t doing anything like that. We were doing Shakespeare in the Park, for God’s sake. So we noticed, we talked about it, but, again, we didn’t think what we were doing was directly comparable to Kathy Griffin. | We noticed, and we went, “Whoops!” But, of course, we knew we weren’t doing anything like that. We were doing Shakespeare in the Park, for God’s sake. So we noticed, we talked about it, but, again, we didn’t think what we were doing was directly comparable to Kathy Griffin. |
| Do you think that what’s happened illustrates something about our culture today? | Do you think that what’s happened illustrates something about our culture today? |
| I don’t want to criticize anybody except The New York Times. The fact that you guys broke the decades-long precedent on embargoing reviews, in response to what Breitbart had done — because that’s what you did, because Breitbart ran a story, other people picked it up, and you broke your arrangement with us. That’s a perfect example of how we are allowing the right-wing hate machine to change our relationships to each other, and that is bad. You and I, and The New York Times and I, will recover from it, but still I think it’s not what we should be doing. | I don’t want to criticize anybody except The New York Times. The fact that you guys broke the decades-long precedent on embargoing reviews, in response to what Breitbart had done — because that’s what you did, because Breitbart ran a story, other people picked it up, and you broke your arrangement with us. That’s a perfect example of how we are allowing the right-wing hate machine to change our relationships to each other, and that is bad. You and I, and The New York Times and I, will recover from it, but still I think it’s not what we should be doing. |
| Did you try to talk anyone at Delta or Bank of America out of changing their financial relationship with the Public? | Did you try to talk anyone at Delta or Bank of America out of changing their financial relationship with the Public? |
| No. We had conversations. But we weren’t trying to talk people out of anything. It’s their money, they’re supporting us, they get to decide what to do with it. | No. We had conversations. But we weren’t trying to talk people out of anything. It’s their money, they’re supporting us, they get to decide what to do with it. |
| You don’t give them preapproval of productions? | You don’t give them preapproval of productions? |
| Never give that to anybody and never will. It would be dreadful if we allowed anybody to preapprove or censor what we do. | Never give that to anybody and never will. It would be dreadful if we allowed anybody to preapprove or censor what we do. |
| It’s complicated because we live in a country where government support of the arts is limited so you are dependent on private fund-raising. | It’s complicated because we live in a country where government support of the arts is limited so you are dependent on private fund-raising. |
| Right. However, our private fund-raising is fine. We have a massive, loyal base of support that gives us a great deal of confidence that we’re going to be fine. | Right. However, our private fund-raising is fine. We have a massive, loyal base of support that gives us a great deal of confidence that we’re going to be fine. |
| How much money did you lose over this production? | How much money did you lose over this production? |
| I shouldn’t talk about exact figures, but let’s just say that the loss of money is not the significant blow to us. We’re sorry we lost the money, but it’s not going to damage our operations at all. | I shouldn’t talk about exact figures, but let’s just say that the loss of money is not the significant blow to us. We’re sorry we lost the money, but it’s not going to damage our operations at all. |
| Are you disappointed in Bank of America, given the long relationship you’ve had with them? | Are you disappointed in Bank of America, given the long relationship you’ve had with them? |
| No. People have to do what they have to do. I’m not a banker. I don’t understand that. What I do understand is that there are an awful lot of people who have stepped up, without being asked, to express solidarity with us, in emotional and financial terms, because the stand that we’ve taken about freedom of the art, freedom of speech, the ability to do provocative work, the ability to do work that speaks to the real issues and anxiety of our time, is something they support. | |
| If you were to do this over again, would you do anything differently? | If you were to do this over again, would you do anything differently? |
| No. This production does not hate Julius Caesar. This production makes some fun of him. I kind of think I’m not the first guy to make some fun of our president. Certainly not this president or any other president. This production is horrified at his murder. | No. This production does not hate Julius Caesar. This production makes some fun of him. I kind of think I’m not the first guy to make some fun of our president. Certainly not this president or any other president. This production is horrified at his murder. |