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| Social mobility and improving access to Britain’s universities | Social mobility and improving access to Britain’s universities |
| (5 months later) | |
| Letters | |
| Mon 21 Aug 2017 17.29 BST | |
| Last modified on Mon 27 Nov 2017 18.12 GMT | |
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| Sonia Sodha in her article on university reform is absolutely right to say that “the value-for-money question is critical”, not only because of idiotically high fees and interest rate on loans, but also because of ever-decreasing teaching and tutorial times (Turn the universities into comprehensives, 18 August). | Sonia Sodha in her article on university reform is absolutely right to say that “the value-for-money question is critical”, not only because of idiotically high fees and interest rate on loans, but also because of ever-decreasing teaching and tutorial times (Turn the universities into comprehensives, 18 August). |
| University reform should start not only with reducing fees, but with making it compulsory for all degree course publicity to include the number of hours, both of teaching time in each year of the course and of tutorial time where any academic problems can be dealt with. Whether personal tutors are available or not should also be included. | University reform should start not only with reducing fees, but with making it compulsory for all degree course publicity to include the number of hours, both of teaching time in each year of the course and of tutorial time where any academic problems can be dealt with. Whether personal tutors are available or not should also be included. |
| Sodha’s suggestion of “introducing a quota for working-class students” might run into problems relating to definition. An insistence that no university is allowed to recruit more than 7% of its undergraduates from private schools, in line with national figures, would be preferable.Bernie EvansLiverpool | Sodha’s suggestion of “introducing a quota for working-class students” might run into problems relating to definition. An insistence that no university is allowed to recruit more than 7% of its undergraduates from private schools, in line with national figures, would be preferable.Bernie EvansLiverpool |
| • Regarding Sonia Sodha’s piece, firstly there is nothing to stop a student enrolling at the local university provided that they can get a place. Secondly, the system of external examiners, where senior academics from other universities oversee the examination process, is designed to provide a level of equivalence between institutions, so a first from Bolton should be roughly equal to a first from Exeter. | • Regarding Sonia Sodha’s piece, firstly there is nothing to stop a student enrolling at the local university provided that they can get a place. Secondly, the system of external examiners, where senior academics from other universities oversee the examination process, is designed to provide a level of equivalence between institutions, so a first from Bolton should be roughly equal to a first from Exeter. |
| In any case, students leave with a transcript of their results that can be disclosed to a prospective employer. In science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects, undergraduate degrees are accredited by professional institutions to give exemptions from their membership examinations. In case you think this may be a toothless threat, I know of one instance where, in a Russell group university, accreditation was refused; this resulted in the temporary closure of the course, the removal of the departmental head and the early retirement of some senior staff. | In any case, students leave with a transcript of their results that can be disclosed to a prospective employer. In science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects, undergraduate degrees are accredited by professional institutions to give exemptions from their membership examinations. In case you think this may be a toothless threat, I know of one instance where, in a Russell group university, accreditation was refused; this resulted in the temporary closure of the course, the removal of the departmental head and the early retirement of some senior staff. |
| Finally, I have to say that the 6.1% interest being charged by the Students Loan Company is usurious and ought to be challenged by judicial review.Tony WardLoughborough, Leicestershire | Finally, I have to say that the 6.1% interest being charged by the Students Loan Company is usurious and ought to be challenged by judicial review.Tony WardLoughborough, Leicestershire |
| • You offered a lavish booklet on university clearing on 17 August, and then several articles on the value (or otherwise) of university education, including a thoughtful piece of subversion by Sonia Sodha. | • You offered a lavish booklet on university clearing on 17 August, and then several articles on the value (or otherwise) of university education, including a thoughtful piece of subversion by Sonia Sodha. |
| But all of this ignores the plight of mature students whom universities used to teach in significant numbers, often after valuable access courses offered in further education colleges. The new fees will certainly put off even more mature students. | But all of this ignores the plight of mature students whom universities used to teach in significant numbers, often after valuable access courses offered in further education colleges. The new fees will certainly put off even more mature students. |
| The disappearance of access courses caused by FE accounting is criminal. While I would expect accountants and civil servants to exclude mature students, I would expect better of the Guardian. Offering a “second chance” is something the government has often discussed but fails to do. But in 42 years of university teaching I came to value the great contribution of mature students as much to the education of those around them– and those who taught them – as to themselves. Please don’t neglect them!Chris FarrandsNottingham | The disappearance of access courses caused by FE accounting is criminal. While I would expect accountants and civil servants to exclude mature students, I would expect better of the Guardian. Offering a “second chance” is something the government has often discussed but fails to do. But in 42 years of university teaching I came to value the great contribution of mature students as much to the education of those around them– and those who taught them – as to themselves. Please don’t neglect them!Chris FarrandsNottingham |
| • Successive governments have been systematically degrading British tertiary education for decades, so Sonia Sodha’s article shouldn’t make the weeping heart sink quite so low as it does. After all, one cannot expect less from a nation of shopkeepers. So comprehensive has been the creep of managerial jargon and the spread of marketisation throughout universities, that to view them in any way other than hers, at least in England, is probably terminally eccentric. | • Successive governments have been systematically degrading British tertiary education for decades, so Sonia Sodha’s article shouldn’t make the weeping heart sink quite so low as it does. After all, one cannot expect less from a nation of shopkeepers. So comprehensive has been the creep of managerial jargon and the spread of marketisation throughout universities, that to view them in any way other than hers, at least in England, is probably terminally eccentric. |
| Yet I still, rather wistfully, remember when universities were about education, learning, the maintenance of civilised values, the virtues of intellectual enlightenment. And I look at a world where the terms of public discourse are determined by Donald Trump or Nigel Farage and wonder if, perhaps, we might have lost something very precious when we abandoned these ideals.Professor Emeritus Michael RosenthalBanbury, Oxfordshire | Yet I still, rather wistfully, remember when universities were about education, learning, the maintenance of civilised values, the virtues of intellectual enlightenment. And I look at a world where the terms of public discourse are determined by Donald Trump or Nigel Farage and wonder if, perhaps, we might have lost something very precious when we abandoned these ideals.Professor Emeritus Michael RosenthalBanbury, Oxfordshire |
| • Afua Hirsch recalls her sense of alienation as a black student at Oxford University (It’s for universities to tackle segregation, and they’re failing, 16 August). What she experienced 15 years ago is far from in the past. Only last year a visiting student from Los Angeles talked to me of how she had nowhere felt as conscious of her race or gender as at Oxford. | • Afua Hirsch recalls her sense of alienation as a black student at Oxford University (It’s for universities to tackle segregation, and they’re failing, 16 August). What she experienced 15 years ago is far from in the past. Only last year a visiting student from Los Angeles talked to me of how she had nowhere felt as conscious of her race or gender as at Oxford. |
| Yet this is an issue that members of the university are determined to address. Last term’s Common Ground initiative saw students organise a remarkable set of events debating the legacy of empire around the world. At St Anne’s College we also brought together criminologists, senior police officers, and ethnic minority police cadets to discuss race and the law. When, in June, we opened a memorial to Merze Tate, the first African American of either sex to read for a graduate degree at Oxford, we celebrated a great pioneer and committed ourselves to work harder to create a truly diverse and inclusive institution.Prof Matthew LeighSt Anne’s College, Oxford | Yet this is an issue that members of the university are determined to address. Last term’s Common Ground initiative saw students organise a remarkable set of events debating the legacy of empire around the world. At St Anne’s College we also brought together criminologists, senior police officers, and ethnic minority police cadets to discuss race and the law. When, in June, we opened a memorial to Merze Tate, the first African American of either sex to read for a graduate degree at Oxford, we celebrated a great pioneer and committed ourselves to work harder to create a truly diverse and inclusive institution.Prof Matthew LeighSt Anne’s College, Oxford |
| • There is much I recognise in Afua Hirsch’s article. At the Russell group university I attended, many students and tutors had never mixed at all with average British people. | • There is much I recognise in Afua Hirsch’s article. At the Russell group university I attended, many students and tutors had never mixed at all with average British people. |
| Being from Liverpool and having an Irish name I was asked by a fellow first-year student if I read “Hopkins” as though it were a rite of passage we all went through. I was later to be abused as an “Irish Catholic” and had essays on “cargo cults” and secularisation suggested by equally narrow-minded tutors. In truth, non-geek working-class students were rarely called on for educated comment save on “street” culture. Mostly we were there to make up the quota or to get the round in and tell jokes. I was never actually engaged or taught as such. | Being from Liverpool and having an Irish name I was asked by a fellow first-year student if I read “Hopkins” as though it were a rite of passage we all went through. I was later to be abused as an “Irish Catholic” and had essays on “cargo cults” and secularisation suggested by equally narrow-minded tutors. In truth, non-geek working-class students were rarely called on for educated comment save on “street” culture. Mostly we were there to make up the quota or to get the round in and tell jokes. I was never actually engaged or taught as such. |
| The irony of all this was the fact that Gerrard Manley Hopkins had been a curate at the church my aunt attended in inner-city Liverpool – a place that was a whole world in the same city compared with the cultural restrictions of the home counties. | The irony of all this was the fact that Gerrard Manley Hopkins had been a curate at the church my aunt attended in inner-city Liverpool – a place that was a whole world in the same city compared with the cultural restrictions of the home counties. |
| Then as now, it is the privileged students whose education was restricted and myopic. They came from a world permanently encased in the trappings of class. We came from the city that produced Gladstone, Lennon and McCartney, Augustus John and would produce Wayne Rooney. | Then as now, it is the privileged students whose education was restricted and myopic. They came from a world permanently encased in the trappings of class. We came from the city that produced Gladstone, Lennon and McCartney, Augustus John and would produce Wayne Rooney. |
| Even so, we got little of the easy familiarity, dinner party teaching and few of the glittering prizes. In fact, in large part, we were their university.Gerald MurphyLiverpool | Even so, we got little of the easy familiarity, dinner party teaching and few of the glittering prizes. In fact, in large part, we were their university.Gerald MurphyLiverpool |
| • Join the debate – email guardian.letters@theguardian.com | • Join the debate – email guardian.letters@theguardian.com |
| • Read more Guardian letters – click here to visit gu.com/letters | • Read more Guardian letters – click here to visit gu.com/letters |
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