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| Lord Sainsbury: ‘This is why I believe in the welfare state. Certain things should be a right’ | Lord Sainsbury: ‘This is why I believe in the welfare state. Certain things should be a right’ |
| (4 months later) | |
| As his Gatsby Charitable Foundation reaches 50, the businessman and benefactor says that philanthropy is no substitute for benefits | |
| Jane Dudman | |
| Tue 19 Sep 2017 13.00 BST | |
| Last modified on Mon 27 Nov 2017 16.47 GMT | |
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| David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, who for 50 years has been a major benefactor of charities, education, research, the arts and projects in developing countries, and whose foundation has already given away more than £1bn, is appalled when I ask if he watched last month’s TV programme Get a House for Free, in which millionaire Marco Robinson gave a flat to the applicant deemed to be the most worthy recipient. | David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, who for 50 years has been a major benefactor of charities, education, research, the arts and projects in developing countries, and whose foundation has already given away more than £1bn, is appalled when I ask if he watched last month’s TV programme Get a House for Free, in which millionaire Marco Robinson gave a flat to the applicant deemed to be the most worthy recipient. |
| “I can’t think of anything I would like less,” he murmurs. “This is the reason why I believe in the proper welfare state, because I think these things should be a right. And I would hate to put myself in a position of trying to judge other people’s worthiness.” | “I can’t think of anything I would like less,” he murmurs. “This is the reason why I believe in the proper welfare state, because I think these things should be a right. And I would hate to put myself in a position of trying to judge other people’s worthiness.” |
| In a rare interview, Sainsbury is clear that he doesn’t want to use charitable spending as a substitute for social welfare. The amounts involved are too small, he says, and there is no evidence that charities do things better than the state. What charities can do, he argues, is take risks and innovate. | In a rare interview, Sainsbury is clear that he doesn’t want to use charitable spending as a substitute for social welfare. The amounts involved are too small, he says, and there is no evidence that charities do things better than the state. What charities can do, he argues, is take risks and innovate. |
| As a former Labour science minister, Sainsbury says government is “incredibly bad” at innovation. “You end up with this utterly ridiculous thing where you have a new idea, and you talk to a Treasury official, who asks whether you can prove that it will be successful. You have to tell them that the point is that it’s innovative – so by definition you can’t prove it’s going to be successful,” he says. | As a former Labour science minister, Sainsbury says government is “incredibly bad” at innovation. “You end up with this utterly ridiculous thing where you have a new idea, and you talk to a Treasury official, who asks whether you can prove that it will be successful. You have to tell them that the point is that it’s innovative – so by definition you can’t prove it’s going to be successful,” he says. |
| So part of the focus of Sainsbury’s charitable work has been to fund start-up projects, in areas like plant science, which have then been taken on by government-funded research councils. “We work very carefully with government, so that any lessons that come out of what we do can be picked up by them,” he says. | So part of the focus of Sainsbury’s charitable work has been to fund start-up projects, in areas like plant science, which have then been taken on by government-funded research councils. “We work very carefully with government, so that any lessons that come out of what we do can be picked up by them,” he says. |
| An early supporter of the SDP who returned to Labour in 1996, Sainsbury has some fairly stringent views on what’s happened to public services since 2010. In 2009, he founded the Institute for Government thinktank, partly because he saw from his time in government that when things didn’t work, “it wasn’t because the civil servants were not trying to do their best; it was that the system was really quite dysfunctional,” he explains. As well as aiming to improve the civil service, the IfG has also reviewed governments’ technical education and industrial and regional policies since 1945. “It is just an appalling story of one half-baked initiative following another half-baked initiative.” But after 10 years’ slog trying to get changes to technical education, Sainsbury does have some hope that things may finally improve in that area at least, following a report published in July 2016 by the panel he chaired. | An early supporter of the SDP who returned to Labour in 1996, Sainsbury has some fairly stringent views on what’s happened to public services since 2010. In 2009, he founded the Institute for Government thinktank, partly because he saw from his time in government that when things didn’t work, “it wasn’t because the civil servants were not trying to do their best; it was that the system was really quite dysfunctional,” he explains. As well as aiming to improve the civil service, the IfG has also reviewed governments’ technical education and industrial and regional policies since 1945. “It is just an appalling story of one half-baked initiative following another half-baked initiative.” But after 10 years’ slog trying to get changes to technical education, Sainsbury does have some hope that things may finally improve in that area at least, following a report published in July 2016 by the panel he chaired. |
| We work very carefully with government, so that any lessons that come out of what we do can be picked up by them | We work very carefully with government, so that any lessons that come out of what we do can be picked up by them |
| Despite having given away hundreds of millions of his own wealth, Sainsbury himself is so little known to the general public that, unlike US mega-philanthropist Bill Gates, he can go about his daily life unrecognised. | Despite having given away hundreds of millions of his own wealth, Sainsbury himself is so little known to the general public that, unlike US mega-philanthropist Bill Gates, he can go about his daily life unrecognised. |
| At the age of 76, he is now looking back on a life of giving. Many of us in our later years may try and do a bit of tidying up, give away a few things. Sainsbury’s tidying up is on a whole different scale. Not that he is, one hopes, anywhere near the end. Sainsbury still officially works three days a week, but on his own admission works another two or three more on top from home, and thinks the idea of retirement is “rubbish”. | At the age of 76, he is now looking back on a life of giving. Many of us in our later years may try and do a bit of tidying up, give away a few things. Sainsbury’s tidying up is on a whole different scale. Not that he is, one hopes, anywhere near the end. Sainsbury still officially works three days a week, but on his own admission works another two or three more on top from home, and thinks the idea of retirement is “rubbish”. |
| Fifty years since he wrote a cheque for £5, using his Sainsbury’s shares, to set up what became the Gatsby Charitable Foundation, named after one of his favourite books, Sainsbury wants to pass on a few ideas accumulated over a lifetime of giving money away through a history of the foundation by science writer and biographer Georgina Ferry, published this month. | Fifty years since he wrote a cheque for £5, using his Sainsbury’s shares, to set up what became the Gatsby Charitable Foundation, named after one of his favourite books, Sainsbury wants to pass on a few ideas accumulated over a lifetime of giving money away through a history of the foundation by science writer and biographer Georgina Ferry, published this month. |
| The foundation has always been ambitious, spending around £50m a year on charitable activities on programmes that range from technical education, plant science and the workings of the brain, as well as helping to reduce poverty in Africa. | The foundation has always been ambitious, spending around £50m a year on charitable activities on programmes that range from technical education, plant science and the workings of the brain, as well as helping to reduce poverty in Africa. |
| Sainsbury has been clear from the start that his foundation will not last beyond his own death. This doesn’t mean the work he has supported will stop: he says there will still be funding for organisations like the Centre for Cities and the Institute for Government thinktanks. “Basically I don’t want to start any major new projects because I want to make certain that all the projects I support are well-organised and in good shape when I die.” | Sainsbury has been clear from the start that his foundation will not last beyond his own death. This doesn’t mean the work he has supported will stop: he says there will still be funding for organisations like the Centre for Cities and the Institute for Government thinktanks. “Basically I don’t want to start any major new projects because I want to make certain that all the projects I support are well-organised and in good shape when I die.” |
| Sainsbury describes it as “just the luck of my life” that he not only received shares in Sainsbury’s, but that he received them at such a young age. “There wasn’t a lot in the early days but it gradually built up and that’s meant I’ve had 50 years to learn how to do this,” he says. “That’s rather unusual because most people have to make the money first and then, towards their 60s or 70s, think about how they might spend it on philanthropic activities, which gives them quite a short time to learn how to do it.” | Sainsbury describes it as “just the luck of my life” that he not only received shares in Sainsbury’s, but that he received them at such a young age. “There wasn’t a lot in the early days but it gradually built up and that’s meant I’ve had 50 years to learn how to do this,” he says. “That’s rather unusual because most people have to make the money first and then, towards their 60s or 70s, think about how they might spend it on philanthropic activities, which gives them quite a short time to learn how to do it.” |
| His main advice to new philanthropists is to do the homework. “First of all decide what it is you really care about and want to change. Because if you’re clear about that then you’ll be prepared to put in the effort of understanding what the issues are in that particular area.” | His main advice to new philanthropists is to do the homework. “First of all decide what it is you really care about and want to change. Because if you’re clear about that then you’ll be prepared to put in the effort of understanding what the issues are in that particular area.” |
| And his second is not to go in with fixed ideas. “Don’t try and draw up a great plan of what you’re going to do, because you don’t know,” he says. “Just fund some small projects in the area, then follow them very closely and see what works. Two or three years later you will know who the good guys are in that field, who is doing interesting stuff and what the problems are.” Only then, he says, can you start to effect true change. | And his second is not to go in with fixed ideas. “Don’t try and draw up a great plan of what you’re going to do, because you don’t know,” he says. “Just fund some small projects in the area, then follow them very closely and see what works. Two or three years later you will know who the good guys are in that field, who is doing interesting stuff and what the problems are.” Only then, he says, can you start to effect true change. |
| And how does he measure that change? Unlike many in the third sector, he is not a fan of auditing impact. “I’m rather unenthusiastic about this new thing about teams of monitors and evaluators,” says Sainsbury. “If you’re clear what you’re trying to do, it’s usually clear whether you’ve succeeded or failed. It’s only when you’re not clear what you’re trying to do that it becomes difficult to measure whether you’re successful or not.” | And how does he measure that change? Unlike many in the third sector, he is not a fan of auditing impact. “I’m rather unenthusiastic about this new thing about teams of monitors and evaluators,” says Sainsbury. “If you’re clear what you’re trying to do, it’s usually clear whether you’ve succeeded or failed. It’s only when you’re not clear what you’re trying to do that it becomes difficult to measure whether you’re successful or not.” |
| And when things don’t work, he says, he takes lessons from his career in business. “You don’t do what government often does and throw up your hands and say, ‘forget it, we’ll do something else’. You say what’s going wrong and why it’s going wrong – and try and correct it.” | And when things don’t work, he says, he takes lessons from his career in business. “You don’t do what government often does and throw up your hands and say, ‘forget it, we’ll do something else’. You say what’s going wrong and why it’s going wrong – and try and correct it.” |
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