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| Answering Your Questions About Going Undercover With the Alt-Right | Answering Your Questions About Going Undercover With the Alt-Right |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| Patrik Hermansson spent nearly a year infiltrating the extreme right for the British anti-racist watchdog group Hope Not Hate. His findings were shared in an Op-Ed article by Jesse Singal, “Undercover with the Alt-Right,” as well as a report by the group. | |
| Here, Mr. Hermansson answers readers’ questions, which have been edited for clarity and length. | Here, Mr. Hermansson answers readers’ questions, which have been edited for clarity and length. |
| Jim Cricket: Have you ever tried to debate the alt-right? If so, with any success? How do you present facts/counterfacts to these types of people? | Jim Cricket: Have you ever tried to debate the alt-right? If so, with any success? How do you present facts/counterfacts to these types of people? |
| Patrik Hermansson: While inside, I couldn’t debate them; otherwise my cover would have been blown. This was one of the hardest things about the whole project. People would say the most hateful things and I couldn’t challenge them, I just had to nod and agree. This was extremely frustrating and at times upsetting. At those times I had to think of the purpose of the whole project rather than what would feel good right then and there. | Patrik Hermansson: While inside, I couldn’t debate them; otherwise my cover would have been blown. This was one of the hardest things about the whole project. People would say the most hateful things and I couldn’t challenge them, I just had to nod and agree. This was extremely frustrating and at times upsetting. At those times I had to think of the purpose of the whole project rather than what would feel good right then and there. |
| Part of the problem with challenging these people’s views is that often they are not arrived at logically, so it is hard to reason them out of them. Their worldview is deeply conspiratorial, so straight facts often won’t work. Some of them reach their views because of fear or anger, so we need to find a way to speak to them on an emotional level, not merely a rational and factual level. However, by the time people get that far into these movements, it is extremely hard to change their minds. It is better to try to discourage people before they get involved. | Part of the problem with challenging these people’s views is that often they are not arrived at logically, so it is hard to reason them out of them. Their worldview is deeply conspiratorial, so straight facts often won’t work. Some of them reach their views because of fear or anger, so we need to find a way to speak to them on an emotional level, not merely a rational and factual level. However, by the time people get that far into these movements, it is extremely hard to change their minds. It is better to try to discourage people before they get involved. |
| Tara Rashan: Did it seem to you that ISIS and these neo-Nazis have more in common than either realizes? | Tara Rashan: Did it seem to you that ISIS and these neo-Nazis have more in common than either realizes? |
| PH: I’m not an expert on the Islamic State so I can’t comment on it specifically. In one sense, of course, it is a fundamentally different type of threat driven by its own set of complex causes and we don’t want to oversimplify either phenomenon. | PH: I’m not an expert on the Islamic State so I can’t comment on it specifically. In one sense, of course, it is a fundamentally different type of threat driven by its own set of complex causes and we don’t want to oversimplify either phenomenon. |
| However, there are some obvious parallels especially in regard to young men being driven by anger or fear to join extreme movements. They are looking for simple binary answers to very complex questions about the state of the world and their own circumstances. | However, there are some obvious parallels especially in regard to young men being driven by anger or fear to join extreme movements. They are looking for simple binary answers to very complex questions about the state of the world and their own circumstances. |
| mancuroc: Are these people independently wealthy or is someone putting lots of money behind them? | mancuroc: Are these people independently wealthy or is someone putting lots of money behind them? |
| PH: The funding of the alt-right is a fascinating question. Some are clearly independently wealthy, like Richard Spencer, and I’m sure there are rich people providing help in different ways. | PH: The funding of the alt-right is a fascinating question. Some are clearly independently wealthy, like Richard Spencer, and I’m sure there are rich people providing help in different ways. |
| However, much of the movement is crowdfunded. They have crowdfunding sites like Hatreon where they get money for projects or individual events. Recently, for example, a group of European “Identitarians” linked to the alt-right raised more than $200,000 to charter a ship to hamper the efforts of organizations working with migrants trying to cross the Mediterranean to Europe. This money was raised around the world via crowdfunding. In one way, this shows the scale of the alt-right. | However, much of the movement is crowdfunded. They have crowdfunding sites like Hatreon where they get money for projects or individual events. Recently, for example, a group of European “Identitarians” linked to the alt-right raised more than $200,000 to charter a ship to hamper the efforts of organizations working with migrants trying to cross the Mediterranean to Europe. This money was raised around the world via crowdfunding. In one way, this shows the scale of the alt-right. |
| Robert Bruce: Fundamentally, all the alt-right stands for is the idea that ethnic Europeans have the same moral entitlement as every other people on earth: namely, a land of their own. They ask why it is that ethnic Europeans, uniquely, face a moral obligation to turn themselves into ethnic minorities and hope it all works out for their descendants. And, so far, no one has been able to answer that question. | Robert Bruce: Fundamentally, all the alt-right stands for is the idea that ethnic Europeans have the same moral entitlement as every other people on earth: namely, a land of their own. They ask why it is that ethnic Europeans, uniquely, face a moral obligation to turn themselves into ethnic minorities and hope it all works out for their descendants. And, so far, no one has been able to answer that question. |
| PH: I’m afraid I fundamentally reject the premise of this question on several fronts. First, it’s based on the premise that ethnic groups have an “entitlement” to certain pieces of land. Ethnic groups have moved around the globe for millenniums so when exactly did this become static and certain ethnic groups became “entitled” to certain bits of the planet? Second, you state that Europeans “face a moral obligation to turn themselves into ethnic minorities.” Where is this the case? This is the sort of spurious demographic nonsense the alt-right uses all the time. | PH: I’m afraid I fundamentally reject the premise of this question on several fronts. First, it’s based on the premise that ethnic groups have an “entitlement” to certain pieces of land. Ethnic groups have moved around the globe for millenniums so when exactly did this become static and certain ethnic groups became “entitled” to certain bits of the planet? Second, you state that Europeans “face a moral obligation to turn themselves into ethnic minorities.” Where is this the case? This is the sort of spurious demographic nonsense the alt-right uses all the time. |
| Victronix: Many of the members of the alt-light, in fact, have renounced explicit racism and anti-Semitism, though they will creep up to the line of explicitly racist speech, especially when Islam and immigration are concerned. | Victronix: Many of the members of the alt-light, in fact, have renounced explicit racism and anti-Semitism, though they will creep up to the line of explicitly racist speech, especially when Islam and immigration are concerned. |
| PH: If people have fears and concerns it is important we listen to them, as simply ignoring them will compound the problem. However, we must also be extremely firm toward those who seek to manipulate and use those concerns and fears to advance prejudiced political agendas. This is what much of the alt-right does. | PH: If people have fears and concerns it is important we listen to them, as simply ignoring them will compound the problem. However, we must also be extremely firm toward those who seek to manipulate and use those concerns and fears to advance prejudiced political agendas. This is what much of the alt-right does. |
| 98_6: I’m not trying to detract from the horrors of their racism, but understanding how integral sexism is to this poisonous ideology is important, too. | 98_6: I’m not trying to detract from the horrors of their racism, but understanding how integral sexism is to this poisonous ideology is important, too. |
| PH: This is such an important point and it is often hugely overlooked. The Hope Not Hate report looks at the importance of anti-feminism, gender and masculinity to the alt-right. It is central to the worldview of the alt-right. | PH: This is such an important point and it is often hugely overlooked. The Hope Not Hate report looks at the importance of anti-feminism, gender and masculinity to the alt-right. It is central to the worldview of the alt-right. |
| The international alt-right has, at its core, the explicit rejection of equality and the pursuit of identity and status for white men who feel aggrieved. As you suggest, one part is racism and the belief that white people overall are threatened by multiculturalism. But more specifically white men are those they consider repressed. The alt-right believes the world should be ordered into strict hierarchies. That includes the belief that strict traditional gender roles are natural. Therefore, they fight against what they think is the emasculating effect of feminism. | The international alt-right has, at its core, the explicit rejection of equality and the pursuit of identity and status for white men who feel aggrieved. As you suggest, one part is racism and the belief that white people overall are threatened by multiculturalism. But more specifically white men are those they consider repressed. The alt-right believes the world should be ordered into strict hierarchies. That includes the belief that strict traditional gender roles are natural. Therefore, they fight against what they think is the emasculating effect of feminism. |
| The alternative right is, to a large part, an online movement and much of it is organized on online forums — already male-dominated spaces. There, misogyny can function as a pep talk that helps empower men who feel disempowered. See Jack Donovan, who advocates the retreat of men into ethnic tribal “brotherhoods.” Online or offline, the sense of camaraderie fostered in male spaces allows men to validate one another as men; it’s an incredibly powerful feeling for those who would otherwise be isolated. | The alternative right is, to a large part, an online movement and much of it is organized on online forums — already male-dominated spaces. There, misogyny can function as a pep talk that helps empower men who feel disempowered. See Jack Donovan, who advocates the retreat of men into ethnic tribal “brotherhoods.” Online or offline, the sense of camaraderie fostered in male spaces allows men to validate one another as men; it’s an incredibly powerful feeling for those who would otherwise be isolated. |
| Norman: Why was it necessary to go undercover? Elle Reeve from Vice identified herself as a reporter to cover the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, and produced a dramatic documentary in which the alt-right participants were just as candid as they were with you. | Norman: Why was it necessary to go undercover? Elle Reeve from Vice identified herself as a reporter to cover the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, and produced a dramatic documentary in which the alt-right participants were just as candid as they were with you. |
| PH: This is an important question and one that many have asked. The reason that Hope Not Hate uses undercover research and asks people like me to spend long periods inside far-right movements is not to just catch racist people saying racist things. Of course, in some cases far-right people and organizations cloak their true extremism and portray a more moderate image to the world to try to avoid criticism and gain new supporters. Going undercover allows us to expose this. | PH: This is an important question and one that many have asked. The reason that Hope Not Hate uses undercover research and asks people like me to spend long periods inside far-right movements is not to just catch racist people saying racist things. Of course, in some cases far-right people and organizations cloak their true extremism and portray a more moderate image to the world to try to avoid criticism and gain new supporters. Going undercover allows us to expose this. |
| However, more important is understanding how a far-right movement operates, organizes and functions. This is invaluable for finding the most effective strategies for opposing and undermining them. I spent hundreds of hours with these people and came away with a real understanding of what drives their activism, the tactics they seek to use, and what they were planning to do. This allows Hope Not Hate to always be one step ahead, and to plan responses and opposition earlier than anyone else. | However, more important is understanding how a far-right movement operates, organizes and functions. This is invaluable for finding the most effective strategies for opposing and undermining them. I spent hundreds of hours with these people and came away with a real understanding of what drives their activism, the tactics they seek to use, and what they were planning to do. This allows Hope Not Hate to always be one step ahead, and to plan responses and opposition earlier than anyone else. |
| Sam: “Far-right”? “Alt-right”? “Alt-light”? Why not “Nazis,” “fascists,” and “white supremacists”? | Sam: “Far-right”? “Alt-right”? “Alt-light”? Why not “Nazis,” “fascists,” and “white supremacists”? |
| PH: Terminology is a constant discussion when you’re looking at the far right. It’s really important not to just call everyone a Nazi. You can’t defeat what you don’t understand, and just writing off everyone you disagree with as a Nazi shows a lack of analysis. Of course, if someone is a Nazi, then call him a Nazi. | PH: Terminology is a constant discussion when you’re looking at the far right. It’s really important not to just call everyone a Nazi. You can’t defeat what you don’t understand, and just writing off everyone you disagree with as a Nazi shows a lack of analysis. Of course, if someone is a Nazi, then call him a Nazi. |
| I fully understand why people want to avoid the term alt-right, and there is no doubt that some have adopted it with a view to sanitizing their image. This is why it is important not to be inaccurate and allow the far right to self-label. | I fully understand why people want to avoid the term alt-right, and there is no doubt that some have adopted it with a view to sanitizing their image. This is why it is important not to be inaccurate and allow the far right to self-label. |
| However, while “alt-right” is a very broad and imperfect term, and there are large areas of crossover with the traditional far right and neo-Nazis, there are also differences, especially around the culture of the movement and its means of operating. It remains a useful and necessary term. | However, while “alt-right” is a very broad and imperfect term, and there are large areas of crossover with the traditional far right and neo-Nazis, there are also differences, especially around the culture of the movement and its means of operating. It remains a useful and necessary term. |