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Discussing the Rohingya Refugee Crisis Discussing the Rohingya Refugee Crisis
(about 1 hour later)
The Rohingya, a Muslim ethnic minority fleeing Myanmar’s far western Rakhine State, have fled into Bangladesh by the hundreds of thousands, turning informal refugee camps there into a sprawling and desperate city.The Rohingya, a Muslim ethnic minority fleeing Myanmar’s far western Rakhine State, have fled into Bangladesh by the hundreds of thousands, turning informal refugee camps there into a sprawling and desperate city.
The secretary general of the United Nations, António Guterres, has described the exodus as “the world’s fastest developing refugee emergency.”
What will it take to address the crisis? How is the international community responding? How are the Rohingya faring — and what is it like covering such a sudden human exodus?What will it take to address the crisis? How is the international community responding? How are the Rohingya faring — and what is it like covering such a sudden human exodus?
The conversations here with correspondents for The New York Times in Southeast Asia, Ben C. Solomon and Hannah Beech, interviewed by Damien Cave, our Australia bureau chief, are an attempt to answer common questions and add context and insight to ongoing Myanmar coverage. The conversations here with correspondents for The New York Times in Southeast Asia, Ben C. Solomon and Hannah Beech, who were interviewed by Damien Cave, our Australia bureau chief, are an attempt to answer common questions and add context and insight to our Myanmar coverage.
The exchanges have been lightly edited for clarity, and to overcome technical challenges with video interviews in areas with weak internet connections.The exchanges have been lightly edited for clarity, and to overcome technical challenges with video interviews in areas with weak internet connections.
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Damien: The scale of this, Ben, in terms of how many people are crossing out of Myanmar into where you are, seems pretty enormous. Can you give me a sense of how that plays out where you are? Something that would help people understand it?Damien: The scale of this, Ben, in terms of how many people are crossing out of Myanmar into where you are, seems pretty enormous. Can you give me a sense of how that plays out where you are? Something that would help people understand it?
Ben: It is enormous. It’s really impressive how fast it’s going up. There’s a sliver of land that goes from the north, and this city called Cox’s Bazar, and then you just go south all the way to the end, along the side is this one river that people are crossing over. And as you go south you start to run into thousands and thousands of people on the street — thousands of people just walking.Ben: It is enormous. It’s really impressive how fast it’s going up. There’s a sliver of land that goes from the north, and this city called Cox’s Bazar, and then you just go south all the way to the end, along the side is this one river that people are crossing over. And as you go south you start to run into thousands and thousands of people on the street — thousands of people just walking.
It’s only when you start asking that you find out that all of all these tent cities all these have gone up over the past month.
There’s not just one — there are five or six. And on top of that there are just hundreds of different makeshift areas where people are just waiting to be told what to do and waiting to figure out where to go.
These camps can get pretty desperate pretty quickly.
To be honest, in the past week that I’ve been here, it’s impressive how much the aid organizations have scaled up. And that’s a testament to the aid organizations’ ability to kind of build and get the resources out here. But it’s also a testament to the Bangladeshis who have allowed this to happen.
If you look at a place like Turkey, there are always political complications with how these aid groups can go in and how these refugee camps can be built up. The Bangladeshis have been relatively open and really honest in the way that they’re helping.
Now it’s not at all a picnic, but the fact of the matter is that people have gone from complete desperation to less desperation in a matter of just one week.
This isn’t the first time Bangladesh has had to deal with this sort of thing, right?
Right. In 1978, they had 220,000 people cross over. In 1981 they had another 250,000 people from there. The problem for them in both those times ended up in the later stages. They tried to forcibly repatriate people back to Myanmar.
It’s hard to say where this goes.
How does this compare to other refugee situations you’ve covered?How does this compare to other refugee situations you’ve covered?
What’s different is the mentality of Rohingya; they are very used to this kind of devastation. They’re very accustomed to being so oppressed and so beaten down. You never see people cry. You rarely see people get really emotional. People are just very, very honest about where they’re at, and it’s almost more striking in a way. I’ve been to so many places where the suffering is so massive and people really are upset. And here the suffering is just as bad if not worse.What’s different is the mentality of Rohingya; they are very used to this kind of devastation. They’re very accustomed to being so oppressed and so beaten down. You never see people cry. You rarely see people get really emotional. People are just very, very honest about where they’re at, and it’s almost more striking in a way. I’ve been to so many places where the suffering is so massive and people really are upset. And here the suffering is just as bad if not worse.
And it’s also a population and a story that can be can be used for propaganda elsewhere in the world.
Absolutely. This is a Muslim minority and from all accounts we’re hearing, they’re just being wiped out, and to be able to use that for propaganda, for recruitment – it’s very useful for any of these organizations.
What about for you as a reporter: What are the biggest challenges?
The reporting is really taxing just emotionally in the sense of talking to people and experiencing their stories. You hear the same stories over and over and that just confirms the viciousness of the attacks there. It’s horrible. It’s really taxing. And on top of that it’s physically really demanding. I mean there is just deep and really rugged mud.
What about the politics of this? Are there people in the camps talking about any of that?What about the politics of this? Are there people in the camps talking about any of that?
I think people are just really happy to be here, to be honest.I think people are just really happy to be here, to be honest.
Something that’s really striking to me — and that’s only because maybe that I’m here and experiencing it — is to look at the way that not only the Myanmar government but also the Myanmar population is reacting to all this, which is basically to deny it.Something that’s really striking to me — and that’s only because maybe that I’m here and experiencing it — is to look at the way that not only the Myanmar government but also the Myanmar population is reacting to all this, which is basically to deny it.
It’s the fake news argument: “These people aren’t oppressed, they’re burning their own villages, terrorists are burning their villages and pushing them out, these numbers they aren’t real, their stories are all fake.”
It’s pretty amazing to see the things that they’re sharing and see the arguments they have against what’s happening. And it’s really depressing.
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Damien: What have you made of the response in Myanmar, Hannah, especially from the country’s leader (and Nobel Peace Prize winner), Daw Aung San Suu Kyi?Damien: What have you made of the response in Myanmar, Hannah, especially from the country’s leader (and Nobel Peace Prize winner), Daw Aung San Suu Kyi?
Hannah: It’s complicated. I think that when she became the de facto leader of the Myanmar government last year, there was this wish from the international community that we would have this feel-good narrative.Hannah: It’s complicated. I think that when she became the de facto leader of the Myanmar government last year, there was this wish from the international community that we would have this feel-good narrative.
In Asia, it’s been a story of the rollback of democracy, and so here was just one story where there was this peaceful transition from a military junta that ruled for almost 50 years to a civilian leader — this democracy activist, this Nobel Peace Prize laureate.In Asia, it’s been a story of the rollback of democracy, and so here was just one story where there was this peaceful transition from a military junta that ruled for almost 50 years to a civilian leader — this democracy activist, this Nobel Peace Prize laureate.
And the truth of the matter is that she is still very very constrained, and the military controls a lot of things — and controls the people who are committing what seem to be atrocities in the Rohingya areas in northern Rakhine state and in western Myanmar. And the truth of the matter is that she is still very, very constrained, and the military controls a lot of things — and controls the people who are committing what seem to be atrocities in the Rohingya areas in northern Rakhine state and in western Myanmar.
Having said that, she is the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and the one weapon that she has that the military doesn’t have is her moral authority — and she has not used it. And so I think that the international community has every right to call her and say, “Look, you know we understand that your position is very difficult. But if you don’t speak out for these people, then who will?” Having said that, she is the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and the one weapon that she has that the military doesn’t have is her moral authority — and she has not used it. And so I think that the international community has every right to call her and say: “Look, you know we understand that your position is very difficult. But if you don’t speak out for these people, then who will?”
So given that, where does this end? Is it destined to just keep getting worse?
It’s tough to say. The people flows have started in the last few days to decrease significantly.
Beyond the humanitarian crisis — beyond the fact that half or even more of the remaining population of Rohingya in Myanmar has left there for Bangladesh — the country is incredibly complicated ethnically, and so there’s a whole patchwork of different people, and of which the Rohingya are only one. And anything that kind of tears at that fabric has the possibility or potential to become very, very complicated for the country.
Another thing that’s happening now is that there are other Muslim populations in Myanmar, not just Rohingya, and they’ve started to feel pressure. And so some of them have had decided to leave.
These are people who are long longstanding members of the community. They’re lawyers, they’re doctors — you know, the kind of prosperous mercantile class — and this has implications for the way that Myanmar, as a kind of quasi-democracy, and a multiethnic democracy, is going to work in the future.
Is this primarily a religious issue? Is this primarily and ethnic issue? I know these lines often blur.
I think religion is part of it, and the fact that this has spread from the ethnic Rohingya community to other Muslim communities shows that it is a religious issue. Myanmar is around 90 percent Buddhist. And there is this sense that Islam has taken over other kinds of formerly Buddhist places: in India, in Afghanistan with the bombing of the temples; Borobudor, in Indonesia, which was one of the biggest Buddhist temples. So there’s a sense that these are areas that used to be Buddhist and now they are Muslim, and could the same thing happen in Myanmar?
You’re a relatively newly installed bureau chief for The Times in Southeast Asia, though you’ve been covering the region for years. What else are you looking at in the region?You’re a relatively newly installed bureau chief for The Times in Southeast Asia, though you’ve been covering the region for years. What else are you looking at in the region?
The thing about Southeast Asia is it’s 11 countries or so, all of which are very different. And nothing really ties them together except I would say maybe two things. The thing about Southeast Asia is it’s 11 countries or so, all of which are very different. And nothing really ties them together except, I would say, maybe two things.
One is the fact that democracy has been seriously challenged throughout the region. You look at Thailand, where I am now, which is now ruled by a military junta. You have Myanmar which has this kind of quasi-civilian government. You look at Malayasia, where there are allegations of corruption and a rollback of rights, and the Philippines, where you have a leader who has publicly endorsed a fatal drug war. You have Indonesia, which is kind of the shining light of democracy in the region but has serious ethnic and religious issues of its own. One is the fact that democracy has been seriously challenged throughout the region. You look at Thailand, where I am now, which is now ruled by a military junta. You have Myanmar, which has this kind of quasi-civilian government. You look at Malayasia, where there are allegations of corruption and a rollback of rights, and the Philippines, where you have a leader who has publicly endorsed a fatal drug war. You have Indonesia, which is kind of the shining light of democracy in the region but has serious ethnic and religious issues of its own.
The other issue is a religious change, and it relates to Myanmar as well. There you have this divide between a Buddhist majority nation and a Muslim minority. In Thailand you have the similar thing — you have a country that is about 90 percent Buddhist with, in the south, a Muslim insurgency.The other issue is a religious change, and it relates to Myanmar as well. There you have this divide between a Buddhist majority nation and a Muslim minority. In Thailand you have the similar thing — you have a country that is about 90 percent Buddhist with, in the south, a Muslim insurgency.
And then you have places like Malaysia and Indonesia, where it’s majority Muslim but there are significant religious minorities chafing against the majority. So you have these kind of religious fault lines throughout the region that I think are something we’re really paying attention to.And then you have places like Malaysia and Indonesia, where it’s majority Muslim but there are significant religious minorities chafing against the majority. So you have these kind of religious fault lines throughout the region that I think are something we’re really paying attention to.