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In a Bygone New York, John Epperson Invited Charles Busch to a Show In a Bygone New York, John Epperson Invited Charles Busch to a Show
(about 4 hours later)
Never make the mistake of describing Charles Busch or John Epperson as a “drag queen.” Both bristle at the term — even though they became famous wearing women’s clothing. Mr. Epperson is best known for his femme fatale alter ego, Lypsinka, and Mr. Busch became a leading lady in the 1980s, starring in his own irreverent Off Broadway plays like the hugely successful “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.”Never make the mistake of describing Charles Busch or John Epperson as a “drag queen.” Both bristle at the term — even though they became famous wearing women’s clothing. Mr. Epperson is best known for his femme fatale alter ego, Lypsinka, and Mr. Busch became a leading lady in the 1980s, starring in his own irreverent Off Broadway plays like the hugely successful “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.”
Mr. Busch, 63, is now performing this Tuesday through Saturday at Feinstein’s/54 Below — ostensibly out of drag, he says, “but what I call ‘out of drag’ other people might call ‘full drag.’” Mr. Epperson, 62, is the guest curator of the Museum of Modern Art’s Club 57 film series, which begins Oct. 29 with “Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.”Mr. Busch, 63, is now performing this Tuesday through Saturday at Feinstein’s/54 Below — ostensibly out of drag, he says, “but what I call ‘out of drag’ other people might call ‘full drag.’” Mr. Epperson, 62, is the guest curator of the Museum of Modern Art’s Club 57 film series, which begins Oct. 29 with “Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.”
Speaking by telephone from separate cities, the two dug back into a time, 40-odd years ago, when drag was hardly as popular as it is in today’s RuPaul era. But drag turned them into mutual admirers, then frenemies, then friends.Speaking by telephone from separate cities, the two dug back into a time, 40-odd years ago, when drag was hardly as popular as it is in today’s RuPaul era. But drag turned them into mutual admirers, then frenemies, then friends.
ADAM SANK I have Charles on the other line.ADAM SANK I have Charles on the other line.
JOHN EPPERSON Charles who?JOHN EPPERSON Charles who?
CHARLES BUSCH (laughs) Oh, you’re so dear.CHARLES BUSCH (laughs) Oh, you’re so dear.
SANK John, where did you first meet Charles?SANK John, where did you first meet Charles?
EPPERSON In the ’70s, I wanted to see all the cult performers. Somehow, I saw a flier for a show by someone named Charles Busch at the old Duplex. And so I went.EPPERSON In the ’70s, I wanted to see all the cult performers. Somehow, I saw a flier for a show by someone named Charles Busch at the old Duplex. And so I went.
BUSCH “Hollywood Confidential!” Honestly, John, I had no idea that you saw that show. I was in my embryonic phase.BUSCH “Hollywood Confidential!” Honestly, John, I had no idea that you saw that show. I was in my embryonic phase.
EPPERSON Then I saw “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.” I thought, well, this guy’s doing it. The other thing was, there was now something called AIDS. And I was wondering if I had it. I thought, “Well, if you’re going to die, you’re not going to leave your mark.” The next year, I wrote a show called “Dial M for Model.” I had never met Charles, but I got his number out of the phone book, and I invited him.EPPERSON Then I saw “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.” I thought, well, this guy’s doing it. The other thing was, there was now something called AIDS. And I was wondering if I had it. I thought, “Well, if you’re going to die, you’re not going to leave your mark.” The next year, I wrote a show called “Dial M for Model.” I had never met Charles, but I got his number out of the phone book, and I invited him.
BUSCH I went to the show. It was very cute, but I was particularly taken with John’s performance. He was just like this fashion drawing come to life. So we got together for lunch, and John was telling me about this other character he had called Lypsinka. He gave me a postcard for a performance he was giving down in SoHo. Well, when I saw him do Lypsinka, it was like I had seen the face of God. I so got everything he was doing — this whole kind of showbiz lady 1959.BUSCH I went to the show. It was very cute, but I was particularly taken with John’s performance. He was just like this fashion drawing come to life. So we got together for lunch, and John was telling me about this other character he had called Lypsinka. He gave me a postcard for a performance he was giving down in SoHo. Well, when I saw him do Lypsinka, it was like I had seen the face of God. I so got everything he was doing — this whole kind of showbiz lady 1959.
EPPERSON Charles, the show that you saw in SoHo was 1988. “Dial M for Model” was ’86.EPPERSON Charles, the show that you saw in SoHo was 1988. “Dial M for Model” was ’86.
BUSCH I tend to compress things into rather tidy stories. So I told my producing partner, Ken Elliott, that we should produce John and do late shows at “Vampire Lesbians.”BUSCH I tend to compress things into rather tidy stories. So I told my producing partner, Ken Elliott, that we should produce John and do late shows at “Vampire Lesbians.”
SANK What is something you each took from the other’s performances during that time?SANK What is something you each took from the other’s performances during that time?
EPPERSON His attention to detail. And the fact that no matter how crappy your day may be offstage, you still got to get out there and deliver the pizazz.EPPERSON His attention to detail. And the fact that no matter how crappy your day may be offstage, you still got to get out there and deliver the pizazz.
BUSCH I was very inspired by the physical control that John had and the use of pose to express a thought — the precision of the image.BUSCH I was very inspired by the physical control that John had and the use of pose to express a thought — the precision of the image.
SANK What were your lives like in those days?SANK What were your lives like in those days?
BUSCH For so much of the ’80s and the ’90s, I was doing eight shows a week. I never did drugs or drank. I’ve always lived a life that was completely at odds with the stereotype of a drag performer. The people I wanted to emulate were Angela Lansbury or Sarah Bernhardt.BUSCH For so much of the ’80s and the ’90s, I was doing eight shows a week. I never did drugs or drank. I’ve always lived a life that was completely at odds with the stereotype of a drag performer. The people I wanted to emulate were Angela Lansbury or Sarah Bernhardt.
EPPERSON I did my share of partying when I got to New York. But I really wanted a career more than I wanted to party. I created Lypsinka in ’82. But from 1980, I was working full time as a rehearsal pianist at American Ballet Theater. And that job started every day at noon.EPPERSON I did my share of partying when I got to New York. But I really wanted a career more than I wanted to party. I created Lypsinka in ’82. But from 1980, I was working full time as a rehearsal pianist at American Ballet Theater. And that job started every day at noon.
BUSCH When we met, right away I saw that this is a serious person who has an outrageous frame of reference but is ultimately a worker and a professional.BUSCH When we met, right away I saw that this is a serious person who has an outrageous frame of reference but is ultimately a worker and a professional.
SANK What was New York’s drag scene like back then?SANK What was New York’s drag scene like back then?
BUSCH When I started doing drag in ’84, drag was not so cool. A lot of gay people were embarrassed by it. When the AIDS crisis started, and suddenly all the bathhouses closed, a lot of gay people wanted to seek a different form of entertainment with their friends. So instead of going to an orgy, they’d go to a drag show.BUSCH When I started doing drag in ’84, drag was not so cool. A lot of gay people were embarrassed by it. When the AIDS crisis started, and suddenly all the bathhouses closed, a lot of gay people wanted to seek a different form of entertainment with their friends. So instead of going to an orgy, they’d go to a drag show.
EPPERSON AIDS did make a change, because gay men’s lives were so much about fantasy, whether it was sex or entertainment. And now they couldn’t have sex anymore.EPPERSON AIDS did make a change, because gay men’s lives were so much about fantasy, whether it was sex or entertainment. And now they couldn’t have sex anymore.
BUSCH When we were doing our shows in the mid- to late ’80s, it really did feel like we were performing for the U.S.O. — to entertain this desperately frightened community. I’m beginning to feel like maybe it’s up to us to be entertaining the troops once more.BUSCH When we were doing our shows in the mid- to late ’80s, it really did feel like we were performing for the U.S.O. — to entertain this desperately frightened community. I’m beginning to feel like maybe it’s up to us to be entertaining the troops once more.
EPPERSON I’m available.EPPERSON I’m available.
SANK Was there ever talk of you performing together?SANK Was there ever talk of you performing together?
EPPERSON We did do a one-night event of reading “Legends,” the James Kirkwood flop [in 2009]. And Whoopi Goldberg was supposed to be in it and canceled that morning. It was really up to me and Charles, along with Brian Batt, to make that thing work. What’s that endorphin that kicks in? EPPERSON We did do a one-night event of reading “Legends,” the James Kirkwood flop [in 2009]. And Whoopi Goldberg was supposed to be in it and canceled that morning. It was really up to me and Charles, along with Bryan Batt, to make that thing work. What’s that endorphin that kicks in?
BUSCH Testosterone?BUSCH Testosterone?
EPPERSON No. There was a “Lucy” episode about it.EPPERSON No. There was a “Lucy” episode about it.
BUSCH Adrenaline!BUSCH Adrenaline!
EPPERSON Our adrenaline kicked in so much that night that we hardly slept like two hours.EPPERSON Our adrenaline kicked in so much that night that we hardly slept like two hours.
SANK Did you two ever feel competitive with each other in the early days?SANK Did you two ever feel competitive with each other in the early days?
BUSCH We never really talk about this, John. It started off great. But then it seemed like we had a couple decades where we were almost frenemies. What I love is that in the past three years, we’ve kind of rediscovered each other as people.BUSCH We never really talk about this, John. It started off great. But then it seemed like we had a couple decades where we were almost frenemies. What I love is that in the past three years, we’ve kind of rediscovered each other as people.
EPPERSON Yes. I don’t know what the click was, but something clicked anew. But we also did a couple things together that I think helped. Warner Bros. asked us to do the commentary on the DVD of “What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?” [in 2012]. EPPERSON Yes. I don’t know what the click was, but something clicked anew. But we also did a couple things together that I think helped. Warner Bros. asked us to do the commentary on the DVD of “What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?”
BUSCH The idea was that we were going to do a series of Bette Davis-Joan Crawford DVD releases. But we never heard from them again.BUSCH The idea was that we were going to do a series of Bette Davis-Joan Crawford DVD releases. But we never heard from them again.
SANK How do you two feel about getting older?SANK How do you two feel about getting older?
BUSCH Approaching 60 is a very interesting age. I went through a very painful, difficult time of self-evaluation and endless ruminating that ultimately gets you nowhere. I think maybe I was so vulnerable that I enjoyed seeking you out, John.BUSCH Approaching 60 is a very interesting age. I went through a very painful, difficult time of self-evaluation and endless ruminating that ultimately gets you nowhere. I think maybe I was so vulnerable that I enjoyed seeking you out, John.
EPPERSON I think that has something to do with not only approaching 60 but now past 60.EPPERSON I think that has something to do with not only approaching 60 but now past 60.
BUSCH Not that past! I feel like we’re living “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.” We’re like the two old vampires who finally have outlived everyone else, and we’re the last of our line.BUSCH Not that past! I feel like we’re living “Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.” We’re like the two old vampires who finally have outlived everyone else, and we’re the last of our line.