This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/29/catalonia-and-the-rich-breaking-away-from-the-poor
The article has changed 4 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 1 | Version 2 |
|---|---|
| Catalonia and the rich breaking away from the poor | Catalonia and the rich breaking away from the poor |
| (21 days later) | |
| Letters | Letters |
| Sun 29 Oct 2017 19.52 GMT | Sun 29 Oct 2017 19.52 GMT |
| Last modified on Wed 14 Feb 2018 15.30 GMT | |
| Share on Facebook | Share on Facebook |
| Share on Twitter | Share on Twitter |
| Share via Email | Share via Email |
| View more sharing options | View more sharing options |
| Share on LinkedIn | Share on LinkedIn |
| Share on Pinterest | Share on Pinterest |
| Share on Google+ | Share on Google+ |
| Share on WhatsApp | Share on WhatsApp |
| Share on Messenger | Share on Messenger |
| Close | Close |
| Paul Mason’s normally incisive journalism seems lacking in his latest piece on regional self-determination (G2, 24 October). The common thread linking separatist movements in Catalonia, Lombardy and Veneto is rich regions objecting to subsidising poorer parts of their respective countries. What’s more, the core message from Brexiters is that “we want our money back” because people are “fed up with subsidising less prosperous parts of Europe”. | Paul Mason’s normally incisive journalism seems lacking in his latest piece on regional self-determination (G2, 24 October). The common thread linking separatist movements in Catalonia, Lombardy and Veneto is rich regions objecting to subsidising poorer parts of their respective countries. What’s more, the core message from Brexiters is that “we want our money back” because people are “fed up with subsidising less prosperous parts of Europe”. |
| What we lack in this debate is any appreciation of the benefits of solidarity, with richer regions/countries working hard to help poorer areas catch up. | What we lack in this debate is any appreciation of the benefits of solidarity, with richer regions/countries working hard to help poorer areas catch up. |
| Instead, the mentality is one of rich regions pulling up the drawbridge to protect their wealth. The greatest example of postwar solidarity remains the Marshall plan. The US recognised that if it didn’t invest in wartorn Europe, it would have nowhere to sell its products and would lose all political influence. Without it, there was a strong prospect of a string of failed states in Europe. | Instead, the mentality is one of rich regions pulling up the drawbridge to protect their wealth. The greatest example of postwar solidarity remains the Marshall plan. The US recognised that if it didn’t invest in wartorn Europe, it would have nowhere to sell its products and would lose all political influence. Without it, there was a strong prospect of a string of failed states in Europe. |
| Isn’t there a danger that support for national self-determination swamps any notion of solidarity with less successful regions?John RigbyMuch Wenlock, Shropshire | Isn’t there a danger that support for national self-determination swamps any notion of solidarity with less successful regions?John RigbyMuch Wenlock, Shropshire |
| • Paul Mason points out that self-determination has been promoted with a variety of historic objectives. However, one aspect of the Catalan referendum that has received little comment in the UK, or on the BBC, is the second part of the question on their ballot paper – the demand for a republic. Many of us believe this should be a central issue for socialists, when contemplating future self-determination – and it is a very good reason for supporting the Catalan cause.Trevor SkemptonLlanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant, Powys | • Paul Mason points out that self-determination has been promoted with a variety of historic objectives. However, one aspect of the Catalan referendum that has received little comment in the UK, or on the BBC, is the second part of the question on their ballot paper – the demand for a republic. Many of us believe this should be a central issue for socialists, when contemplating future self-determination – and it is a very good reason for supporting the Catalan cause.Trevor SkemptonLlanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant, Powys |
| • Your editorial (24 October) rightly says of the Catalonia-Spain crisis, “an honest broker can help the two sides back from the brink”. At this time, the UN under the leadership of António Guterres is expanding its establishment of mediators, as well it might, because in recent years, separatism and secessionism is a major factor in a third to a half of all wars. Secessionism requires protracted, detailed negotiations brokered by an objective third party, and the UN is ideally placed to do this. | • Your editorial (24 October) rightly says of the Catalonia-Spain crisis, “an honest broker can help the two sides back from the brink”. At this time, the UN under the leadership of António Guterres is expanding its establishment of mediators, as well it might, because in recent years, separatism and secessionism is a major factor in a third to a half of all wars. Secessionism requires protracted, detailed negotiations brokered by an objective third party, and the UN is ideally placed to do this. |
| It takes humility and statesmanship for parties in contention to ask the UN to help, but since the EU does not seem to be offering assistance, it would set an excellent precedent for the world if Mariano Rajoy and Carles Puigdemont would do just that.Dr Richard LawsonChurchill, North Somerset | It takes humility and statesmanship for parties in contention to ask the UN to help, but since the EU does not seem to be offering assistance, it would set an excellent precedent for the world if Mariano Rajoy and Carles Puigdemont would do just that.Dr Richard LawsonChurchill, North Somerset |
| • The right of self-determination was meant to counter external problems of imperial possession, not internal ones of secession. Secondly, like those famous Russian dolls, every majority has its own minority and, if exercised by a majority vote, the right could indeed lead to the break-up of numerous nations (Catalonia’s independence movement is not just a problem for Spain, Simon Jenkins, theguardian.com, 27 October). Thirdly, as in Iraq, adjusting the boundary lines could leave Kirkuk as part of a predominantly Kurdish, Shia or Sunni constituency. The right as written is a recipe for conflict. | • The right of self-determination was meant to counter external problems of imperial possession, not internal ones of secession. Secondly, like those famous Russian dolls, every majority has its own minority and, if exercised by a majority vote, the right could indeed lead to the break-up of numerous nations (Catalonia’s independence movement is not just a problem for Spain, Simon Jenkins, theguardian.com, 27 October). Thirdly, as in Iraq, adjusting the boundary lines could leave Kirkuk as part of a predominantly Kurdish, Shia or Sunni constituency. The right as written is a recipe for conflict. |
| Binary referendums have been a cause of tension in Quebec, violence in East Timor, havoc in the Balkans and total mayhem in South Sudan. Furthermore, one poll may lead to another: in 2014, the word Shotlandiya (Scotland) was used in Ukraine. | Binary referendums have been a cause of tension in Quebec, violence in East Timor, havoc in the Balkans and total mayhem in South Sudan. Furthermore, one poll may lead to another: in 2014, the word Shotlandiya (Scotland) was used in Ukraine. |
| Will we never learn? In resolution 47, the UN called for a similar plebiscite in Kashmir. And today, some are campaigning for just such a ballot in Taiwan and Hong Kong, despite the fact that, if repeated in Xīnjiāng, it would almost certainly cause yet more bloodshed. Peter EmersonDirector, the de Borda Institute | Will we never learn? In resolution 47, the UN called for a similar plebiscite in Kashmir. And today, some are campaigning for just such a ballot in Taiwan and Hong Kong, despite the fact that, if repeated in Xīnjiāng, it would almost certainly cause yet more bloodshed. Peter EmersonDirector, the de Borda Institute |
| • We, the undersigned, register our opposition to the Spanish government of Mariano Rajoy in implementing article 155 of the Spanish constitution, following the Catalan parliament’s declaration of independence. | • We, the undersigned, register our opposition to the Spanish government of Mariano Rajoy in implementing article 155 of the Spanish constitution, following the Catalan parliament’s declaration of independence. |
| The actions of the Spanish government in sending in civil guards and national police to smash their way into polling stations, to seize ballot boxes and attack voters in an effort to stop the 1 October Catalan referendum; its jailing of Jordi Sánchez, the president of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), and Jordi Cuixart, the president of Òmnium Cultural, on charges of sedition; and its decision to implement article 155 of the Spanish constitution revoking Catalonia’s statute of autonomy, represents the most serious attack on democracy in western Europe in recent years. Catalan language media outlets are threatened with closure and websites shut down. | The actions of the Spanish government in sending in civil guards and national police to smash their way into polling stations, to seize ballot boxes and attack voters in an effort to stop the 1 October Catalan referendum; its jailing of Jordi Sánchez, the president of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), and Jordi Cuixart, the president of Òmnium Cultural, on charges of sedition; and its decision to implement article 155 of the Spanish constitution revoking Catalonia’s statute of autonomy, represents the most serious attack on democracy in western Europe in recent years. Catalan language media outlets are threatened with closure and websites shut down. |
| For Catalans this is the most serious attack on their rights since the death of General Franco in 1975. The actions of the Spanish state have awoken bitter memories of his dictatorship when the Catalan language was banned in public and from use in places of education. | For Catalans this is the most serious attack on their rights since the death of General Franco in 1975. The actions of the Spanish state have awoken bitter memories of his dictatorship when the Catalan language was banned in public and from use in places of education. |
| Friends of Catalonia has been formed to help defend Catalan democracy and civil rights. We are concerned that following the implementation of article 155, the Spanish government will intensify its repressive measures. We therefore demand that the British government and the EU seek immediate assurances that legal measures will not be used to punish any organisation or individual for activities in connection with the referendum. | Friends of Catalonia has been formed to help defend Catalan democracy and civil rights. We are concerned that following the implementation of article 155, the Spanish government will intensify its repressive measures. We therefore demand that the British government and the EU seek immediate assurances that legal measures will not be used to punish any organisation or individual for activities in connection with the referendum. |
| We have different positions on whether Catalonia should be independent but believe that is a matter for the Catalans to decide democratically and peacefully. | We have different positions on whether Catalonia should be independent but believe that is a matter for the Catalans to decide democratically and peacefully. |
| We abhor the silence of both the British government and the EU on this attack on Catalonia’s democracy. | We abhor the silence of both the British government and the EU on this attack on Catalonia’s democracy. |
| We will work closely with the Catalan National Assembly (England) and Catalans UK, the two main organisations among the Catalan community here, and help build their protests and activities in support of democracy in Catalonia. Professor David Whyte University of Liverpool, Chris Bambery Author of A People’s History of Scotland and co-author of Catalonia Reborn (March 2018), Professor Gilbert Achcar Soas, University of London, Tariq Ali Writer and broadcaster, Professor David Miller University of Bath, Dr Feyzi Ismail Soas, Professor Gregor Gall University of Bradford, Lindsey German Convenor, Stop the War Coalition (personal capacity), Dr Andrew Dowling Author of The Rise of Catalan Independence: Spain’s Territorial Crisis, Professor Bill Bowring Birkbeck College, University of London, Dr John Rees Author of The Leveller Revolution, Russell Mclean Convenor, London Scottish National Party branch (personal capacity) | We will work closely with the Catalan National Assembly (England) and Catalans UK, the two main organisations among the Catalan community here, and help build their protests and activities in support of democracy in Catalonia. Professor David Whyte University of Liverpool, Chris Bambery Author of A People’s History of Scotland and co-author of Catalonia Reborn (March 2018), Professor Gilbert Achcar Soas, University of London, Tariq Ali Writer and broadcaster, Professor David Miller University of Bath, Dr Feyzi Ismail Soas, Professor Gregor Gall University of Bradford, Lindsey German Convenor, Stop the War Coalition (personal capacity), Dr Andrew Dowling Author of The Rise of Catalan Independence: Spain’s Territorial Crisis, Professor Bill Bowring Birkbeck College, University of London, Dr John Rees Author of The Leveller Revolution, Russell Mclean Convenor, London Scottish National Party branch (personal capacity) |
| • Your report (Catalan vice-president says independence is the only remaining option, 26 October) repeats yet again the claim that “770,000 votes were lost after Spanish police stepped in to try to halt the vote” during the referendum on 1 October. This is misleading, at best. The Catalan government says this is the number of potential voters in the places closed by the Spanish police. But not all Catalans wanted to participate in the referendum and many of those who wanted to cast a ballot could have done so elsewhere – as Catalan President Carles Puigdemont did. That there were villages where the number of votes cast was more than double the official population is testimony to this (or perhaps it is testimony to something else). There was no official census and nor were there any mechanisms controlling who voted, or how many times. This was possible because the Catalan government, not the Spanish police, dissolved the electoral commission a few days before the referendum. As a result, the ballots were counted only by people in favour of independence. This is why all supposed vote counts must be taken with a very large grain of salt.Antonio Cazorla-SánchezOttawa, Ontario, Canada | • Your report (Catalan vice-president says independence is the only remaining option, 26 October) repeats yet again the claim that “770,000 votes were lost after Spanish police stepped in to try to halt the vote” during the referendum on 1 October. This is misleading, at best. The Catalan government says this is the number of potential voters in the places closed by the Spanish police. But not all Catalans wanted to participate in the referendum and many of those who wanted to cast a ballot could have done so elsewhere – as Catalan President Carles Puigdemont did. That there were villages where the number of votes cast was more than double the official population is testimony to this (or perhaps it is testimony to something else). There was no official census and nor were there any mechanisms controlling who voted, or how many times. This was possible because the Catalan government, not the Spanish police, dissolved the electoral commission a few days before the referendum. As a result, the ballots were counted only by people in favour of independence. This is why all supposed vote counts must be taken with a very large grain of salt.Antonio Cazorla-SánchezOttawa, Ontario, Canada |
| • Join the debate – email guardian.letters@theguardian.com | • Join the debate – email guardian.letters@theguardian.com |
| • Read more Guardian letters – click here to visit gu.com/letters | • Read more Guardian letters – click here to visit gu.com/letters |
| Catalonia | Catalonia |
| Carles Puigdemont | Carles Puigdemont |
| Mariano Rajoy | Mariano Rajoy |
| Spain | Spain |
| Global economy | Global economy |
| Europe | Europe |
| letters | letters |
| Share on Facebook | Share on Facebook |
| Share on Twitter | Share on Twitter |
| Share via Email | Share via Email |
| Share on LinkedIn | Share on LinkedIn |
| Share on Pinterest | Share on Pinterest |
| Share on Google+ | Share on Google+ |
| Share on WhatsApp | Share on WhatsApp |
| Share on Messenger | Share on Messenger |
| Reuse this content | Reuse this content |