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May on course for 'meaningful vote' victory as lead rebel Grieve accepts government compromise - Politics live May wins 'meaningful vote' victory after lead rebel Grieve accepts compromise - Politics live
(35 minutes later)
The Lords amendment, drafted by Dominic Grieve, is defeated, after that last minute concession.
The government won by 16 votes - it will be interesting when we get the final stats about which Tory rebels rebelled, and which Labour MPs joined them.
Liberal Democrat Brexit spokesman Tom Brake has seized on the ‘Grand Old Duke of York’ nickname.
Just like the Grand Old Duke of York, Grieve has marched his troops to the top of the hill only to get cold feet and retreat with his tail between his legs.
Despite the clear calamity that May and Davis are making of Brexit, the so-called Tory rebels have lost their bottle and caved into yet another pathetic government compromise that isn’t worth the paper it is written on.
There are potentially far more significant battles to come on a raft of bills, including the trade bill and customs bill, where many Tory MPs have put their names to amendments on a future customs union. But the “meaningful vote” is probably the least controversial issue so it does not bode well for the success of those amendments.
It seems like Labour MPs were forced to make it into Parliament from their sick beds, as was raised in the chamber in a point of order earlier. This from the Times’ Sam Coates.
I’ve just seen a Labour MP in a wheelchair with a paper sick bucket looking in lots of pain after voting (because Tories refused MPs who r ill to vote from the car park). It was quite a sad sight.
We expect the result in a few minutes. The government is now expected to win comfortably.
Just before the vote, the Labour MP George Howarth joked in the final speech in the Commons that Dominic Grieve is “in danger of becoming the Grand Old Duke of York.”
ITV’s Robert Peston has an explanation of sorts from one of the Tory would-be rebels. In essence, they believe there will always be a way to force a vote.
This from one of the Rebel Remainers explains the climb down from some but not all of them. It says that if there is no Brexit deal, government will inevitably face debate on an amendable motion - though not one that would bind May pic.twitter.com/xTcYuB2ij4
The EU Withdrawal bill will need to go back to the Lords one final time, but we don’t expect the Lords to send it back again, meaning the legislation will finally pass. It may be as early as tonight.
Anna Soubry is speaking now in the debate. She jokes she has a throat infection because the editor of the Daily Mail has a tiny doll in her image and is “sticking pins in its throat.”
She says she agrees with Antoinette Sandbach’s arguments, calling her “a remarkably brave woman.”
Anna Soubry says she will vote for the amendment\
She says that she is convinced the promise needs to be in statute. She says the 48% who voted to remain “have been silenced and abused.”
Tory veteran Ken Clarke, the most dogged of the Tory rebels, said that he is disappointed with the lack of time for debate and says it is obvious that the government wants to deny Parliament a say where it can, shown by the legal fight needed to get a vote on Article 50.
Clarke said he believed the government could be defeated. He jokes he was not invited to negotiations with the prime minister, “I don’t blame the chief whip for that... I think he knew I would take a rather strong line.”
He says that the government is going back on an agreement brokered last week, in favour of a “convoluted deal” which he says will spark a new row about the Speaker’s powers.
Jacob Rees-Mogg is on his feet in the chamber now. He says the House still retains its constitutional power.
The powers and the authority and the rights of this House remain intact and that is not dependent on whether a meaningful vote is amendable or unamendable.
He says the legislation “will ensure the government can pursue its objectives... that is very important.”
Rees-Mogg pays tribute to the chief whip, Julian Smith, who is sitting in the chamber, he says he has been tactful in his discussions and says he has brokered a compromise to maintain the integrity of the House and keep most of his colleagues onside.
It sends the prime minister to the negotiating table, and the secretary of state, with a united House of Commons behind them.
Tory MP Antoinette Sandbach, a close ally of Grieve’s and one of the rebel MPs who voted against the government in December is speaking now. She has a quiver in her voice.Tory MP Antoinette Sandbach, a close ally of Grieve’s and one of the rebel MPs who voted against the government in December is speaking now. She has a quiver in her voice.
She says her constituents were under no illusions about her concerns about a meaningful vote on the final Brexit deal when they re-elected her.She says her constituents were under no illusions about her concerns about a meaningful vote on the final Brexit deal when they re-elected her.
Sandbach says she often accused of wanting to tie the government’s hands. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”Sandbach says she often accused of wanting to tie the government’s hands. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”
She says that the amendment concerns steps that would be taken when negotiations have broken down. She says she strongly believes negotiations will succeed.She says that the amendment concerns steps that would be taken when negotiations have broken down. She says she strongly believes negotiations will succeed.
Not to have a process in place should negotiations collapse would be irresponsible. And what is more, this amendment will ensure that when the PM sits down to negotiate, she does so with the full backing of parliament. Far from binding the prime minister, it strengthens her hand.Not to have a process in place should negotiations collapse would be irresponsible. And what is more, this amendment will ensure that when the PM sits down to negotiate, she does so with the full backing of parliament. Far from binding the prime minister, it strengthens her hand.
Sandbach says the amendment “delivers on a commitment to take back control.”Sandbach says the amendment “delivers on a commitment to take back control.”
Sandbach suggests she will back the amendment, despite Grieve’s concessionSandbach suggests she will back the amendment, despite Grieve’s concession
Theresa May has just arrived in the Commons. Reporters who are in the chamber says she is looking happy and relaxed. At the vote last week, she was hastily summoning rebels to her private Commons office to offer a compromise.Theresa May has just arrived in the Commons. Reporters who are in the chamber says she is looking happy and relaxed. At the vote last week, she was hastily summoning rebels to her private Commons office to offer a compromise.
Here’s the snap reaction to Dominic Grieve’s concession from MPs and the commentariat.Here’s the snap reaction to Dominic Grieve’s concession from MPs and the commentariat.
This is the withering verdict from Labour MP Caroline Flint. Grieve is moving his amendment anyway to allow MPs to express their view, though he will not support it.This is the withering verdict from Labour MP Caroline Flint. Grieve is moving his amendment anyway to allow MPs to express their view, though he will not support it.
So if I understand it Dominic Grieve is asking the House to vote on his amendment which he’s not supporting.So if I understand it Dominic Grieve is asking the House to vote on his amendment which he’s not supporting.
The Spectator’s James Forsyth says the deal means the day is delayed (yet again) when May will have to face down one wing of her party.The Spectator’s James Forsyth says the deal means the day is delayed (yet again) when May will have to face down one wing of her party.
So, the great confrontation--which would tell us if the Tory rebels have the numbers to defeat the govt--has been put off to another day againSo, the great confrontation--which would tell us if the Tory rebels have the numbers to defeat the govt--has been put off to another day again
That’s a view shared by the BBC’s Laura KuenssbergThat’s a view shared by the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg
2. It also postpones the day (again) when Theresa May faces down either wing of her party - as such it this will frustrate her internal critics again, one said, 'usual https://t.co/adR6kw8YFd from number 10'2. It also postpones the day (again) when Theresa May faces down either wing of her party - as such it this will frustrate her internal critics again, one said, 'usual https://t.co/adR6kw8YFd from number 10'
Who has won? The general consensus is that the government has given not much away, but Grieve has got enough to save some face. Here’s the Sun’s Tom Newton-Dunn.Who has won? The general consensus is that the government has given not much away, but Grieve has got enough to save some face. Here’s the Sun’s Tom Newton-Dunn.
So who blinked the most? A backbench motion in Govt time seems to be the key concession by ministers (which Grieve said he insisted on). The effect is Parliament v Govt stand-off postponed until endgame, rather than being resolved today.So who blinked the most? A backbench motion in Govt time seems to be the key concession by ministers (which Grieve said he insisted on). The effect is Parliament v Govt stand-off postponed until endgame, rather than being resolved today.
The Telegraph’s Gordon Rayner points out that the decision on the final motion will now be in the hands of the Speaker. Bercow has apparently told friends one of the reasons he wants to extend his time as Speaker is to see through Brexit.The Telegraph’s Gordon Rayner points out that the decision on the final motion will now be in the hands of the Speaker. Bercow has apparently told friends one of the reasons he wants to extend his time as Speaker is to see through Brexit.
Has Theresa May just put the future of Brexit in the hands of John Bercow? Govt says it will be Speaker's call if there is a row over whether MPs should be able to direct Govt on Brexit negotiationsHas Theresa May just put the future of Brexit in the hands of John Bercow? Govt says it will be Speaker's call if there is a row over whether MPs should be able to direct Govt on Brexit negotiations
Labour MP Angela Eagle says his power is still constrained.Labour MP Angela Eagle says his power is still constrained.
Up to the Speaker but he is constrained by the standing orders which don’t give him the power to declare that a neutral motion is somehow not neutral #EUWithdrawalBill https://t.co/dIF9H59lImUp to the Speaker but he is constrained by the standing orders which don’t give him the power to declare that a neutral motion is somehow not neutral #EUWithdrawalBill https://t.co/dIF9H59lIm
Grieve is now talking about the Davis compromise statement (see 1.53pm), which he says will be tabled as written ministerial statement tomorrow.Grieve is now talking about the Davis compromise statement (see 1.53pm), which he says will be tabled as written ministerial statement tomorrow.
He says this confirms that it will be up to the speaker to decide whether a motion can be amended.He says this confirms that it will be up to the speaker to decide whether a motion can be amended.
And he reads out the final paragraph, saying “as is the convention”, the Commons can hold debates and votes.And he reads out the final paragraph, saying “as is the convention”, the Commons can hold debates and votes.
Labour’s Chris Bryant intervenes. He says in recent years the government has often ignored Commons votes. The only thing with legislative effect is legislation. That is why there must be a meaningful vote.Labour’s Chris Bryant intervenes. He says in recent years the government has often ignored Commons votes. The only thing with legislative effect is legislation. That is why there must be a meaningful vote.
Grieve says the government could ignore an amendment as voted on under the Lords amendment. That could be be enforced in law, he says. It would have to be enforced by the Commons itself - by a confidence motion or other means.Grieve says the government could ignore an amendment as voted on under the Lords amendment. That could be be enforced in law, he says. It would have to be enforced by the Commons itself - by a confidence motion or other means.
He says he has considered what the PM has told him about her anxieties. His own judgement is that he should “accept the government’s difficulty and support it”, he says.He says he has considered what the PM has told him about her anxieties. His own judgement is that he should “accept the government’s difficulty and support it”, he says.
Leading Tory rebel Dominic Grieve says he accepts government’s compromise and will back government. That means Theresa May is now on course to win the vote.Leading Tory rebel Dominic Grieve says he accepts government’s compromise and will back government. That means Theresa May is now on course to win the vote.
Grieve says, if MPs want a vote on his amendment, he will allow one. But he will not be voting for it any more, he says.Grieve says, if MPs want a vote on his amendment, he will allow one. But he will not be voting for it any more, he says.
He ends with a final point. He says there is enough “madness” around to make him wonder whether “collective sanity” has been destroyed.He ends with a final point. He says there is enough “madness” around to make him wonder whether “collective sanity” has been destroyed.
And bullying is making it worse, he says. He says people are afraid of backing down in case someone says they have lost.And bullying is making it worse, he says. He says people are afraid of backing down in case someone says they have lost.
(I’ve got to finish now. I’m handing over to my colleague Jessica Elgot.)(I’ve got to finish now. I’m handing over to my colleague Jessica Elgot.)
Dominic Grieve, the Conservative former attorney general, is speaking now.Dominic Grieve, the Conservative former attorney general, is speaking now.
He says he he wants to say “how deeply I object to the way [the House of Lords] get vilified for doing the job we have asked them to do”.He says he he wants to say “how deeply I object to the way [the House of Lords] get vilified for doing the job we have asked them to do”.
Grieve talks through the history of the various “meaningful vote” proposals. (There is a quick guide here.) He says he thought the original Lords amendment (Hailsham 1, you could call it) included a mandatory element, involving parliament giving directions to the government. That was unprecedented since the civil war, he says.Grieve talks through the history of the various “meaningful vote” proposals. (There is a quick guide here.) He says he thought the original Lords amendment (Hailsham 1, you could call it) included a mandatory element, involving parliament giving directions to the government. That was unprecedented since the civil war, he says.
He says he negotiated an alternative last week. That fell through. He says he makes no criticism of anyone in relation to that. Sometimes negotiations fall through.He says he negotiated an alternative last week. That fell through. He says he makes no criticism of anyone in relation to that. Sometimes negotiations fall through.
The alternative was tabled in the Lords.The alternative was tabled in the Lords.
Two concerns were raised, he says.Two concerns were raised, he says.
First, whether the matter would be justiciable (ie, whether someone could take the government to court for ignoring what the Act said).First, whether the matter would be justiciable (ie, whether someone could take the government to court for ignoring what the Act said).
Second, there was an argument that having this in legislation could make it harder for the government to get a good deal.Second, there was an argument that having this in legislation could make it harder for the government to get a good deal.
He says he found it hard to ignore this argument, even though, as is well know, he thinks Brexit is a big mistake.He says he found it hard to ignore this argument, even though, as is well know, he thinks Brexit is a big mistake.
Starmer says the Lords amendment would ensure that, if the Commons voted down the withdrawal agreement, there would be order, not chaos.Starmer says the Lords amendment would ensure that, if the Commons voted down the withdrawal agreement, there would be order, not chaos.
He urges MPs to vote for it.He urges MPs to vote for it.
Labour’s Ruth Smeeth asks Starmer to confirm that it is Labour’s policy that the UK will leave the EU in March next year.Labour’s Ruth Smeeth asks Starmer to confirm that it is Labour’s policy that the UK will leave the EU in March next year.
Starmer says that is Labour’s position.Starmer says that is Labour’s position.
Starmer says the government originally said MPs should not vote on the deal. They said that would tie the hands of the government. But eventually the government agreed to one, and the sky did not fall in.Starmer says the government originally said MPs should not vote on the deal. They said that would tie the hands of the government. But eventually the government agreed to one, and the sky did not fall in.
This is not frustrating the Brexit process, he says. He says this is about ensuring there is a process.This is not frustrating the Brexit process, he says. He says this is about ensuring there is a process.
Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, is speaking now.
He says the Lords amendment is not about blocking Brexit, or tying the hands of the government.
It is just about making sure that on the most important peacetime issue this country has considered, parliament has a voice.
He says Theresa May’s view is that, if parliament votes down the deal, “tough luck”. That does not amount to a meaningful vote.
The government is saying if, parliament votes down the deal, a minister will make a statement. “Well, I should think so.”
He says the government is saying there must be a vote on a motion in neutral terms.
He says there is an example of a motion in neutral terms on the order paper today. There will be a debate on Nato. And the motion says: “That this House has considered Nato.”
Labour’s Paul Farrelly raises a point of order. Referring to the Davis statement (see 1.53pm), he asks John Bercow what discretion he would have to rule that a motion could be amended if it were couched in neutral terms.
Bercow says he thinks this will be addressed in the debate.
Davis says you cannot enter a negotiation without the right to walk away.
So the Lords amendment would undermine the UK’s position in the negotiation, he says.
He says this is the paradox:
In trying to head off no deal, you actually make no deal more likely.
Davis says ‘meaningful vote’ amendment would make no deal Brexit more likely.
He says this would give the EU an incentive to delay.
He says the EU has already shown inflexibility, in issues like Galileo, and again yesterday on security.
We cannot allow such an approach to become commonplace across all negotiations.
Sylvia Hermon, the independent MP for North Down, says she could not accept a no deal Brexit. That would lead to a hard border returning in Ireland.
Davis says the government will not accept the return of a hard border.
Ken Clarke, the Conservative pro-European, says the Lords amendment (“Grieve 2”), would oblige the government to table a substantive motion. He says the government rejected that. He says, if anyone did try to propose a substantive amendment in those circumstances, the government would say that what was being proposed was unacceptable.
Davis says he does not want to follow Clarke down the path of considering hypotheticals.
Davis is now talking about the “meaningful vote” amendment.
He says the government had three tests for such an amendment: it should not undermine the negotiations, it should not change the constitutional relationship between parliament and the executive, and it should accept the results of the referendum.
He sums up what the government is now offering.
If parliament rejects the deal, the government must make a statement and table a motion. If there is no deal, there must be a statement and a motion. And if by January no agreement has been passed by parliament, a motion will be brought to parliament.
Labour’s Hilary Benn asks why the government amendment says this motion must be “in neutral terms”. Under Commons standing order 24 (b), a motion that the speaker rules to be in neutral terms cannot be amended.
Davis says he will address this. He reads out standing order 24 (b).
David Davis, the Brexit secretary, is opening the debate.
He says the government’s critics should not question its democratic credentials. He says parliament has been repeatedly involved in this process.
Parliament has more say over Brexit than the European parliament, he says.
The debate is starting now.
John Bercow, the speaker, says he will call two amendments for a vote: Dominic Grieve’s one (see 11.24am) and one from the Lib Dem MP Tom Brake, saying the Commons “meaningful vote” could trigger another referendum on the final Brexit deal.
By lunchtime the gap between what the government was offering and what the rebels, led by Dominic Grieve, wanted was narrow. They both accept that, if MPs have not approved the Brexit withdrawal agreement by 21 January 2019, the government must schedule a vote within five working days. (See 11.24am.) But the government was saying that motion must be “in neutral terms, to the effect that the House of Commons has considered the matter of”. A motion like that would not be amendable. But Grieve and the rebels were not happy, because, in those circumstances, they wanted MPs to be able to table an amendment saying something like: “This House now requires the government to return to Brussels to try again/negotiate EEA membership/or whatever.”
The government has now issued a statement (see 1.53pm) saying that, actually, it will be up to the speaker at the time to decide if said motion debated under the terms of this clause can be amended.
(It is worth reminding readers that John Bercow, the speaker, has reportedly told friends he wants to stay as speaker until next summer so he can allow such an amendment. And that is one reason why some Tory Brexiters want him out.)
The statement also says that ministers and MPs can table their own motions, implying that the Commons could have a vote anyway. This is true up to a point. But the government decides the parliamentary timetable, and, while the opposition parties get certain days for debate - when the government allows - ordinary backbenchers cannot just schedule a debate. This line is not an offer at all - just a description of the status quo (which puts most levers in the hands of the executive.)
So the final paragraph is probably pointless. But the penultimate paragraph (the one about the speaker having the discretion to allow an amendment) does sound like a concession of sorts.
However, it begs another question; if the government would be happy for this January 2019 motion to be amended, why doesn’t it just accept the Grieve amendment tabled today (see 11.24am) removing the reference to the motion being “in neutral terms, to the effect that the House of Commons has considered the matter of”?
Overall, as concessions go, it seems a bit thin. It is not clear whether the speaker would actually have the discretion under Commons rules to allow the motion to be amended.
But this does look like a concession, and it is probably the case that the government whips have concluded it is just enough to buy off some of the rebels.
We will find out in a moment, when the debate begins.
1. Whether it is a climb down or a lawyer's way out - it massively reduces the chances of a rebellion later, and gives rebels and govt an escape route https://t.co/qWhewvX2DI
In the Commons Labour’s Ben Bradshaw has just asked a point of order about the Tories refusing to “nod through” sick MPs.
John Bercow, the speaker, says nodding through has been a long-established practice. But it is not matter for him.