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Grenfell inquiry: Fire officer's 'impossible' choice for father Grenfell fire officer's 'impossible decision' over father
(about 1 hour later)
A fire station manager advised a resident of Grenfell Tower to go back and get his children, despite fearing he "probably would not survive". A fire station manager advised a Grenfell Tower resident to go back and get his children, despite fearing he "probably would not survive".
Jason Oliff said it was an "impossible decision" with "no right or wrong answer", the Grenfell inquiry heard.Jason Oliff said it was an "impossible decision" with "no right or wrong answer", the Grenfell inquiry heard.
Mr Oliff was helping a 999 call operator who was on the phone to a man trapped on the 21st floor with his heavily pregnant wife and children. The resident called 999 as he tried to flee the burning tower with his heavily pregnant wife and children, but he became separated from them.
"My thinking was I wouldn't want to get out without my family," Mr Oliff said. The family later escaped with help from firefighters but the unborn baby died.
The public inquiry into the disaster on 14 June last year, which killed 72 people, continued on Monday with more evidence from London Fire Brigade staff. Mr Oliff was in the control room and in charge of passing information from 999 calls to firefighters at the scene in west London.
Mr Oliff, who was in a control room in Stratford, east London, on the night of the fire, was in charge of passing information from Grenfell 999 calls to firefighters at the scene. He was called over to help the 999 call handler as she spoke to the resident, who was having trouble breathing in the smoke-filled stairwell as he escaped the 21st floor.
In a written statement read out at the inquiry, Mr Oliff said he was called over by a female 999 call handler who was talking to a man trying to escape from the tower with his family. The resident told the 999 call operator that he had become separated from his wife and asked whether he should continue or go back for her.
'Extreme distress'
The Grenfell resident - who was having trouble breathing in the smoke-filled stairwell - told the 999 call operator that he had become separated from his wife and asked whether he should continue or go back for her.
"The operator was asking me 'what do I say to him?'," Mr Oliff said, adding it was a "highly stressful situation and I did not have the luxury of deliberating over the choices"."The operator was asking me 'what do I say to him?'," Mr Oliff said, adding it was a "highly stressful situation and I did not have the luxury of deliberating over the choices".
He said: "Having seen the events unfolding at Grenfell Tower on the television and having knowledge of the conditions in the stairwell, I thought it unlikely that the male would be able to make it back, find his wife and still make it out of the building with all of his children."He said: "Having seen the events unfolding at Grenfell Tower on the television and having knowledge of the conditions in the stairwell, I thought it unlikely that the male would be able to make it back, find his wife and still make it out of the building with all of his children."
Mr Oliff said he believed the survival time inside the burning tower without fire safety equipment was "very limited". He told the man, who had his children with him, to keep going. Mr Oliff said he believed the survival time inside the burning tower without fire safety equipment was "very limited".
He said: "After a few more floors the male informed the operator that he had now lost contact with his three children. He told the man, who had his children with him, to keep going.
"After a few more floors the male informed the operator that he had now lost contact with his children," he said.
"The operator could hear the male calling out for his children, he was now in extreme distress."The operator could hear the male calling out for his children, he was now in extreme distress.
"The operator was also understandably distressed, she informed me that the male didn't know what to do and again asked me 'what do I tell him?'."The operator was also understandably distressed, she informed me that the male didn't know what to do and again asked me 'what do I tell him?'.
"This was an impossible decision to make. There was no right or wrong answer I could give and I did not give this advice easily."This was an impossible decision to make. There was no right or wrong answer I could give and I did not give this advice easily.
"I told the operator 'tell him to go back and get his daughters'."I told the operator 'tell him to go back and get his daughters'.
"I knew in saying this that, the male probably wouldn't survive, but my thinking was that if it was me, I wouldn't want to get out of that tower without my family and live with that for the rest of my life.""I knew in saying this that, the male probably wouldn't survive, but my thinking was that if it was me, I wouldn't want to get out of that tower without my family and live with that for the rest of my life."
A few months later, Mr Oliff said he found out that the family he spoke to in this call had survived after being helped by firefighters, but that the unborn baby had died.A few months later, Mr Oliff said he found out that the family he spoke to in this call had survived after being helped by firefighters, but that the unborn baby had died.
'Television was broken'
Mr Oliff, who is a station manager at Chiswick and Feltham North West Area, was working from Stratford rather than the usual control room in Merton, which was closed for repairs.Mr Oliff, who is a station manager at Chiswick and Feltham North West Area, was working from Stratford rather than the usual control room in Merton, which was closed for repairs.
When he arrived at the control room, the television was off and he was told it was broken.When he arrived at the control room, the television was off and he was told it was broken.
"I believe that having access to the images of this event as it happened would have assisted us (the LFB) in making assessments from our remote location," he said, "I believe that having access to the images of this event as it happened would have assisted us (the LFB) in making assessments from our remote location," he said.
He said the lack of television footage made it "difficult for us to picture what was going on at the incident itself" and the first time he saw the scale of the fire was when a colleague showed him photos on his mobile phone.He said the lack of television footage made it "difficult for us to picture what was going on at the incident itself" and the first time he saw the scale of the fire was when a colleague showed him photos on his mobile phone.
"In 27 years as a firefighter I never expected to see a fire like this in London," he said."In 27 years as a firefighter I never expected to see a fire like this in London," he said.
"It is difficult to know what the London Fire Brigade could have done to deal with this fire any better than we did.""It is difficult to know what the London Fire Brigade could have done to deal with this fire any better than we did."
The public inquiry into the disaster on 14 June last year, which killed 72 people, is hearing evidence from London Fire Brigade staff.