This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . The next check for changes will be

You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/mar/15/christchurch-shooting-injuries-reported-as-police-respond-to-critical-incident-live

The article has changed 42 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Version 21 Version 22
New Zealand shooting suspect used rifles covered in white-supremacist graffiti – latest updates New Zealand shooting suspect used rifles covered in white-supremacist graffiti – latest updates
(32 minutes later)
Waleed Aly, a prominent Australian journalist and practicing Muslim, has drawn attention for his emotional address on the current affairs programme that he co-hosts, The Project. “Of all the things that I could say tonight – that I am gutted, that I am scared, and that I am filled with utter hopelessness – the most dishonest thing would be to say that I am shocked. I’m simply not. ... Everything we say to try to tear people apart, demonize particular groups, set them against each other, that all has consequences, even if we are not the ones with our fingers on the trigger.”
“You’ll have to forgive me, these won’t be my best words...”On this heartbreaking day, Waleed reflects and calls for unity. #TheProjectTV pic.twitter.com/mIOI0eGamb
India’s minister of external affairs, Sushma Swaraj, has just acknowledged the attack:
We strongly condemn the dastardly terrorist attacks at the places of worship in Christchurch. Our heartfelt condolences to those who lost their loved ones. Our thoughts and prayers are with the affected families. /1
In this moment of grief, India stands in solidarity with the people and Government of New Zealand @winstonpeters /2
The New York Police Department’s Counterterrorism Bureau has asked that New Yorkers remain calm in the face of an increased counterterrorism presence outside mosques and religious institutions in the city. Photos posted to its official Twitter presence show groups of up to six armed police with dogs posted outside the Islamic Cultural Center of New York among other buildings.
Our Counterterrorism officers are deployed throughout the city at various mosques & religious institutions in response to the New Zealand terror attack.Please do not be alarmed of the increased presence. We are working closely w/ the community to keep you safe. pic.twitter.com/mGVrp83EPj
James P O’Neill, New York City Police Department commissioner, said earlier that the department was deploying “high-profile resources around our city to keep all worshippers, in every neighborhood, safe – and to keep them feeling safe, too”: “There is no place in our city & the world for hate, whatever form it may take,” he added.
His full statement:
The people #NYPD serves, in every #NYC neighborhood, must always be free from fear & have the immutable right to worship & live in peace. Together, NYers will never allow terrorists — who thrive on violence & fear — to threaten our people or our values. My full statement, here:⬇️ pic.twitter.com/XQqOSUgr2n
Mulki Abdiwahab, an 18-year-old student at Lincoln University in Christchurch, has given a harrowing account of the massacre to Radio New Zealand. She had just finished praying in the women-only room of Al Noor Mosque with her mother, children and elderly when she heard gunshots.Mulki Abdiwahab, an 18-year-old student at Lincoln University in Christchurch, has given a harrowing account of the massacre to Radio New Zealand. She had just finished praying in the women-only room of Al Noor Mosque with her mother, children and elderly when she heard gunshots.
“I thought at first it must have been somebody banging on the window. My mum grabbed my hand and then we just we ran outside. Everyone was in chaos, just running for their lives. We just kept running, and running. The gunshots kept going on for about a good 10 minutes.”“I thought at first it must have been somebody banging on the window. My mum grabbed my hand and then we just we ran outside. Everyone was in chaos, just running for their lives. We just kept running, and running. The gunshots kept going on for about a good 10 minutes.”
Abdiwahab’s father was in the men’s room at the time of the shooting; he was now receiving care in hospital, while she and her mother had sought refuge in a residents’ home.Abdiwahab’s father was in the men’s room at the time of the shooting; he was now receiving care in hospital, while she and her mother had sought refuge in a residents’ home.
She said she was confused as to why the shooting happened. “It just never would have crossed my mind that any human being would ever want to hurt another human being, it is just really foreign to me. In a place that I felt safe ... but now I’m starting to question [that].”She said she was confused as to why the shooting happened. “It just never would have crossed my mind that any human being would ever want to hurt another human being, it is just really foreign to me. In a place that I felt safe ... but now I’m starting to question [that].”
The suspect in the attack on two mosques in Christchurch opened fire on worshippers using rifles covered in white-supremacist graffiti after listening to a song glorifying a Bosnian Serb war criminal.The suspect in the attack on two mosques in Christchurch opened fire on worshippers using rifles covered in white-supremacist graffiti after listening to a song glorifying a Bosnian Serb war criminal.
The gunman, who identified himself as Brenton Tarrant, a 28-year-old born in Australia, streamed footage live on social media before and during the massacre. It showed him driving to the first mosque while listening to a song idolising Radovan Karadzic, who was jailed for genocide and other war crimes against Bosnian Muslims.The gunman, who identified himself as Brenton Tarrant, a 28-year-old born in Australia, streamed footage live on social media before and during the massacre. It showed him driving to the first mosque while listening to a song idolising Radovan Karadzic, who was jailed for genocide and other war crimes against Bosnian Muslims.
Two of the rifles used in the shooting referenced Ebba Akerlund, an 11-year-old girl who was killed in April 2017 when an Uzbek man, Rakhmat Akilov, rammed his truck into people in Stockholm.Two of the rifles used in the shooting referenced Ebba Akerlund, an 11-year-old girl who was killed in April 2017 when an Uzbek man, Rakhmat Akilov, rammed his truck into people in Stockholm.
The name Charles Martel, who is hailed by white supremacists for defeating an invading Muslim force at the Battle of Tours in 732, was also displayed on weapons used in the attack.The name Charles Martel, who is hailed by white supremacists for defeating an invading Muslim force at the Battle of Tours in 732, was also displayed on weapons used in the attack.
What do we know about the Christchurch attack suspect?What do we know about the Christchurch attack suspect?
Nearly NZ $500,000 (£257,500) has already been raised for the victims of Christchurch terror attack. More than 7,400 people have now donated to the crowdfunding page on Givealittle, which was set up by the New Zealand Council of Victim Support Groups, the country’s primary support provider for people affected by homicide.Nearly NZ $500,000 (£257,500) has already been raised for the victims of Christchurch terror attack. More than 7,400 people have now donated to the crowdfunding page on Givealittle, which was set up by the New Zealand Council of Victim Support Groups, the country’s primary support provider for people affected by homicide.
Another campaign, spearheaded by a coalition of New Zealand Islamic groups, has raised nearly NZ $350,000 NZAnother campaign, spearheaded by a coalition of New Zealand Islamic groups, has raised nearly NZ $350,000 NZ
If you're moved to donate to help those impacted in the Christchurch terror attack, here's 2 funding drives. Victim Support is an NZ org working with victims: https://t.co/pISPWj32F2 And there's a campaign by a coalition of NZ Islamic groups: https://t.co/kqtMwkuOF0If you're moved to donate to help those impacted in the Christchurch terror attack, here's 2 funding drives. Victim Support is an NZ org working with victims: https://t.co/pISPWj32F2 And there's a campaign by a coalition of NZ Islamic groups: https://t.co/kqtMwkuOF0
The New Zealand website The Spinoff has compiled more ways in which to help grieving Muslim communities.The New Zealand website The Spinoff has compiled more ways in which to help grieving Muslim communities.
London’s Finsbury Park Mosque experienced its own tragedy in June 2017 when Darren Osborne drove into a crowd of worshippers standing on a pavement, killing Makram Ali and injuring nine others. Following news from New Zealand, there were feelings of shock, concern but also defiance among Muslim gathering for Friday prayers tonight.London’s Finsbury Park Mosque experienced its own tragedy in June 2017 when Darren Osborne drove into a crowd of worshippers standing on a pavement, killing Makram Ali and injuring nine others. Following news from New Zealand, there were feelings of shock, concern but also defiance among Muslim gathering for Friday prayers tonight.
“It’s a very sad day, it’s inhumane taking innocent people,” said Benyounes Msaad. “When I saw the video of the attack it was depressing, I wish I didn’t see it. A lot of people probably didn’t come today.”“It’s a very sad day, it’s inhumane taking innocent people,” said Benyounes Msaad. “When I saw the video of the attack it was depressing, I wish I didn’t see it. A lot of people probably didn’t come today.”
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Islington council leader Richard Watts visited the mosque after Friday’s prayers to give their condolences.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Islington council leader Richard Watts visited the mosque after Friday’s prayers to give their condolences.
Nadeem Badshah reports:Nadeem Badshah reports:
Finsbury Park mosque worshippers shocked by New Zealand terror attackFinsbury Park mosque worshippers shocked by New Zealand terror attack
Foreign ministries around the world are working to determine if – or how many – of their nationals have been killed or injured in the New Zealand attack. All information is the most recent avaiable from Associated Press, but are likely to change:Foreign ministries around the world are working to determine if – or how many – of their nationals have been killed or injured in the New Zealand attack. All information is the most recent avaiable from Associated Press, but are likely to change:
Pakistan’s foreign ministry says four Pakistanis were wounded, while five others are missing after Friday’s attacks.Pakistan’s foreign ministry says four Pakistanis were wounded, while five others are missing after Friday’s attacks.
Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan says at least three Turkish citizens have been wounded, and that he has spoken to one of themTurkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan says at least three Turkish citizens have been wounded, and that he has spoken to one of them
Indonesia’s foreign ministry says two Indonesians, a father and son, were injured; the father is in intensive care and his son is being treated at the same hospitalIndonesia’s foreign ministry says two Indonesians, a father and son, were injured; the father is in intensive care and his son is being treated at the same hospital
Bangladesh’s honorary consul in Auckland says three Bangadleshis in New Zealand have been confirmed dead so far. At least four others are injured, two critically – Shafiqur Rahman Bhuiyan says one person’s leg had to be amputated, and another has gunshot wounds to his chestBangladesh’s honorary consul in Auckland says three Bangadleshis in New Zealand have been confirmed dead so far. At least four others are injured, two critically – Shafiqur Rahman Bhuiyan says one person’s leg had to be amputated, and another has gunshot wounds to his chest
Malaysia’s foreign ministry says at least two citizens have been injured, but that number is likely to climb. No Malaysian nationals have been counted among the fatalities yetMalaysia’s foreign ministry says at least two citizens have been injured, but that number is likely to climb. No Malaysian nationals have been counted among the fatalities yet
Malaysian PM Mahathir Mohamad @chedetofficial on Christchurch shootings, which injured at least 2 Malaysians: “The government will do everything possible to see that Malaysians there are safe. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families of the shooting incident.” pic.twitter.com/HdMIFXV6DSMalaysian PM Mahathir Mohamad @chedetofficial on Christchurch shootings, which injured at least 2 Malaysians: “The government will do everything possible to see that Malaysians there are safe. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families of the shooting incident.” pic.twitter.com/HdMIFXV6DS
The in-joke-filled, irony-laden vocabulary of the far-right online communities that spawned the terror attack in Christchurch on Friday makes it “extremely difficult” to distinguish a sick joke from a deadly serious threat, according to experts on the international far right and online information warfare.The in-joke-filled, irony-laden vocabulary of the far-right online communities that spawned the terror attack in Christchurch on Friday makes it “extremely difficult” to distinguish a sick joke from a deadly serious threat, according to experts on the international far right and online information warfare.
References to “shitposting”, YouTube stars and the 17th century Battle of Vienna are hallmarks of “that online culture where everything can be a joke and extremist content can be a parody and deadly serious all on the same page,” said Ben Nimmo, a researcher at the Atlantic Council. “Distinguishing between the two is extremely difficult.References to “shitposting”, YouTube stars and the 17th century Battle of Vienna are hallmarks of “that online culture where everything can be a joke and extremist content can be a parody and deadly serious all on the same page,” said Ben Nimmo, a researcher at the Atlantic Council. “Distinguishing between the two is extremely difficult.
“You have these communities who routinely practice extreme rhetoric as a joke, so it’s very easy to fit in if you’re a real extremist.”“You have these communities who routinely practice extreme rhetoric as a joke, so it’s very easy to fit in if you’re a real extremist.”
It also leads to situations where mainstream observers unknowingly aid terrorists by spreading propaganda without recognising it for what it is.It also leads to situations where mainstream observers unknowingly aid terrorists by spreading propaganda without recognising it for what it is.
“The way we always have to look at manifestos like this: it’s a PR document, a propaganda document, that’s meant to be analysed, exposed, read and thought about,” said Patrik Hermansson, a researcher at Hope Not Hate. “The more confusing it is, the more it might be spread.”“The way we always have to look at manifestos like this: it’s a PR document, a propaganda document, that’s meant to be analysed, exposed, read and thought about,” said Patrik Hermansson, a researcher at Hope Not Hate. “The more confusing it is, the more it might be spread.”
Renaud Camus’ 2011 book The Great Replacement seems to have inspired the gunman’s 74-page “manifesto” – it certainly served as the title for it. The French far-right polemicist has denounced the murders as “terrorist, terrible, criminal, disastrous and imbecilic”, but conceded the “ethnic substitution” that he argues is taking place in the west could encourage violence.Renaud Camus’ 2011 book The Great Replacement seems to have inspired the gunman’s 74-page “manifesto” – it certainly served as the title for it. The French far-right polemicist has denounced the murders as “terrorist, terrible, criminal, disastrous and imbecilic”, but conceded the “ethnic substitution” that he argues is taking place in the west could encourage violence.
Camus, 72, told Agence France-Presse that the gunman “cannot claim to have acted according to my writings because I argue the opposite. If he wrote a brochure titled The Great Replacement it’s plagiarism, an abusive use of a phrase that is not his and that he plainly does not understand.”Camus, 72, told Agence France-Presse that the gunman “cannot claim to have acted according to my writings because I argue the opposite. If he wrote a brochure titled The Great Replacement it’s plagiarism, an abusive use of a phrase that is not his and that he plainly does not understand.”
The essayist, whose “theory” that Europe’s white majority is being steadily replaced by non-white, often Muslim immigrants, is often advanced by far right and anti-immigration figures in France and elsewhere on the continent, was convicted in 2015 of incitement to hatred or violence against Muslims.The essayist, whose “theory” that Europe’s white majority is being steadily replaced by non-white, often Muslim immigrants, is often advanced by far right and anti-immigration figures in France and elsewhere on the continent, was convicted in 2015 of incitement to hatred or violence against Muslims.
Camus told AFP was was “absolutely non-violent. I utterly condemn these acts.” He added, however, that “what worries me most about what I call ‘the great replacement’ is precisely the extent to which it could encourage violence, of all kinds, in everyday life but also – obviously – in acts of terrorism”.Camus told AFP was was “absolutely non-violent. I utterly condemn these acts.” He added, however, that “what worries me most about what I call ‘the great replacement’ is precisely the extent to which it could encourage violence, of all kinds, in everyday life but also – obviously – in acts of terrorism”.
It seemed to him that the gunman was more likely to have been inspired by the Islamist terror attacks carried out in France in the past four or five years, he said: “I do not see what he should be more inspired by me than by acts that directly resemble those he carried out.”It seemed to him that the gunman was more likely to have been inspired by the Islamist terror attacks carried out in France in the past four or five years, he said: “I do not see what he should be more inspired by me than by acts that directly resemble those he carried out.”
There can be no place in our societies for the vile ideology that drives and incites hatred and fear. Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of New Zealand. pic.twitter.com/vEE3vZRW0H
Prime minister Theresa May has released a statement, confirming that she has been in touch with New Zealand prime minister Jacinda Ardern over the “horrifying terrorist attack”:Prime minister Theresa May has released a statement, confirming that she has been in touch with New Zealand prime minister Jacinda Ardern over the “horrifying terrorist attack”:
“To target Muslims as they were attending their place of worship is despicable. And our thoughts and prayers are with the people of New Zealand, with the families and friends of those who have died in these attacks and with all those who have been injured. The UK stands ready to support New Zealand however we can.“To target Muslims as they were attending their place of worship is despicable. And our thoughts and prayers are with the people of New Zealand, with the families and friends of those who have died in these attacks and with all those who have been injured. The UK stands ready to support New Zealand however we can.
Through terror attacks that have taken place on UK soil we know only too well the pain that such horrifying attacks can cause. As New Zealand has stood by us so we stand shoulder to shoulder with them, and with Muslims in New Zealand, here in the UK and around the world.Through terror attacks that have taken place on UK soil we know only too well the pain that such horrifying attacks can cause. As New Zealand has stood by us so we stand shoulder to shoulder with them, and with Muslims in New Zealand, here in the UK and around the world.
There can be no place in our societies for the vile ideology that drives and incites hatred and fear. Together we will defeat those who seek to destroy our values, our way of life and seek to divide us.”There can be no place in our societies for the vile ideology that drives and incites hatred and fear. Together we will defeat those who seek to destroy our values, our way of life and seek to divide us.”
US President Donald Trump’s extension of “thoughts and prayers” to New Zealand has been rejected by the national civil rights organisation, Muslim Advocates, as “an inadequate response”.US President Donald Trump’s extension of “thoughts and prayers” to New Zealand has been rejected by the national civil rights organisation, Muslim Advocates, as “an inadequate response”.
Thoughts & prayers are not enough to respond to the #NewZealandShooting. It is time for concrete action. The President must disavow white nationalism & this attack.The FBI must prioritize hate violence.Tech companies must prevent the streaming/spreading of these videos. pic.twitter.com/HPPkw6kDSFThoughts & prayers are not enough to respond to the #NewZealandShooting. It is time for concrete action. The President must disavow white nationalism & this attack.The FBI must prioritize hate violence.Tech companies must prevent the streaming/spreading of these videos. pic.twitter.com/HPPkw6kDSF
Executive director Farhana Khera highlighted the president’s own role in fanning the flames of Islamophobia across the world, with “historic levels of hate crimes motivated by anti-Muslim bigotry” in recent years.Executive director Farhana Khera highlighted the president’s own role in fanning the flames of Islamophobia across the world, with “historic levels of hate crimes motivated by anti-Muslim bigotry” in recent years.
“In the wake of this heartbreaking, anti-Muslim mass slaughter, it is clear that more needs to be done to protect Muslims and all vulnerable communities from the very real dangers posed by hate and white nationalists. … It is not enough for President Trump to merely send thoughts and prayers. The President called neo-nazis and white nationalists ‘very fine people.’ This hate-filled murderer drew inspiration from Trump, and the white nationalist movement has celebrated Trump’s words and policies.”“In the wake of this heartbreaking, anti-Muslim mass slaughter, it is clear that more needs to be done to protect Muslims and all vulnerable communities from the very real dangers posed by hate and white nationalists. … It is not enough for President Trump to merely send thoughts and prayers. The President called neo-nazis and white nationalists ‘very fine people.’ This hate-filled murderer drew inspiration from Trump, and the white nationalist movement has celebrated Trump’s words and policies.”
The US attorney-general, William P Barr, has issued this statement on behalf of the justice department in Washington, going notably further than the president’s own “God bless all!”:The US attorney-general, William P Barr, has issued this statement on behalf of the justice department in Washington, going notably further than the president’s own “God bless all!”:
“Violence on the basis of religion is evil. Today’s attack in New Zealand is a sobering reminder that the threat of political and religious violence is real and that we must remain vigilant against it.”“Violence on the basis of religion is evil. Today’s attack in New Zealand is a sobering reminder that the threat of political and religious violence is real and that we must remain vigilant against it.”
After the 7 July bombings in London in 2005, Dr HA Hellyer was appointed as deputy convenor of a UK government working group looking at precisely what factors led to people becoming swept up in extremism. Though there were other factors, the group found that ideas and ideology played a significant part:After the 7 July bombings in London in 2005, Dr HA Hellyer was appointed as deputy convenor of a UK government working group looking at precisely what factors led to people becoming swept up in extremism. Though there were other factors, the group found that ideas and ideology played a significant part:
“we could not simply cast aside the importance of extremist discourse and dogma. ... It would be wrong to minimise the extent to which ideas energised people, and provided their rationalisation for violent acts.“we could not simply cast aside the importance of extremist discourse and dogma. ... It would be wrong to minimise the extent to which ideas energised people, and provided their rationalisation for violent acts.
By the same token, it would be outrageous to fail to recognise that the unbridled, nativistic, anti-Muslim bigotry that has become so widespread in our societies has nothing to do with this attack in New Zealand.”By the same token, it would be outrageous to fail to recognise that the unbridled, nativistic, anti-Muslim bigotry that has become so widespread in our societies has nothing to do with this attack in New Zealand.”
Hellyer has written today for the Guardian’s opinion section:Hellyer has written today for the Guardian’s opinion section:
The Islamophobia that led to the Christchurch shooting must be confronted | HA HellyerThe Islamophobia that led to the Christchurch shooting must be confronted | HA Hellyer
Lecturer Dr Zurinawati Mohi was near the Malaysian-Korea border en route to Hatyai for work when she was alerted to the attack by a friend, she told the New Straits Times. Her husband, Mohd Nazri Hisham Omar, 46, has lived in Christchurch with three of their children, aged 17, 13 and 9, since January.Lecturer Dr Zurinawati Mohi was near the Malaysian-Korea border en route to Hatyai for work when she was alerted to the attack by a friend, she told the New Straits Times. Her husband, Mohd Nazri Hisham Omar, 46, has lived in Christchurch with three of their children, aged 17, 13 and 9, since January.
“To get confirmation, I immediately called my husband and three children but my calls went unanswered. Not long after that, one of my kids sent me a WhatsApp message telling me their father was injured,” she said.“To get confirmation, I immediately called my husband and three children but my calls went unanswered. Not long after that, one of my kids sent me a WhatsApp message telling me their father was injured,” she said.
Zurinawati, 48, said her husband was badly injured in the attack, though she did not know what his condition was in hospital. “Our three children are safe but traumatised following what happened.”Zurinawati, 48, said her husband was badly injured in the attack, though she did not know what his condition was in hospital. “Our three children are safe but traumatised following what happened.”
She intends to travel to New Zealand with their eldest son, 19, as soon as possible.She intends to travel to New Zealand with their eldest son, 19, as soon as possible.
The Malaysian High Commission in Wellington has so far confirmed only one Malaysian citizen among those injured, but the number is expected to rise given the number of nations resident in Christchurch. The foreign ministry of Malaysia condemned “in the strongest terms, this senseless act of terror on innocent civilians” and called for “those responsible for this barbaric crime be brought to justice”.The Malaysian High Commission in Wellington has so far confirmed only one Malaysian citizen among those injured, but the number is expected to rise given the number of nations resident in Christchurch. The foreign ministry of Malaysia condemned “in the strongest terms, this senseless act of terror on innocent civilians” and called for “those responsible for this barbaric crime be brought to justice”.
Malaysia condemns in the strongest term, the senseless act of terror on innocent civilians and hopes that those responsible for this barbaric crime be brought to justice. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families of today’s shooting incident in New Zealand. pic.twitter.com/GKP4GJ2EQJMalaysia condemns in the strongest term, the senseless act of terror on innocent civilians and hopes that those responsible for this barbaric crime be brought to justice. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families of today’s shooting incident in New Zealand. pic.twitter.com/GKP4GJ2EQJ
Another Malaysian national, Mohd Tarmizi Shuib, has been identified as injured in the attack. A former classmate told The New Straits Times that Shib, a flight simulator operator, had been at the Al Noor mosque with his wife and two of his four children for Friday night prayers.Another Malaysian national, Mohd Tarmizi Shuib, has been identified as injured in the attack. A former classmate told The New Straits Times that Shib, a flight simulator operator, had been at the Al Noor mosque with his wife and two of his four children for Friday night prayers.
When the shooting began, the friend said, Mohd Tarmizi Shuib ran off with his son Hariz and was shot in the back. Hariz is safe, but 17-year-old Haziq is thought to still be unaccounted for. “For now, we can only pray that all will be fine and hope Haziq is found safe,” Shuib’s sister, Zarina Shuib, 53, told the Malay Mail from her home in Hutan Kampung.When the shooting began, the friend said, Mohd Tarmizi Shuib ran off with his son Hariz and was shot in the back. Hariz is safe, but 17-year-old Haziq is thought to still be unaccounted for. “For now, we can only pray that all will be fine and hope Haziq is found safe,” Shuib’s sister, Zarina Shuib, 53, told the Malay Mail from her home in Hutan Kampung.
Shuib had migrated to New Zealand about 18 months ago after his eldest daughter, 19, was offered a place to study at university there. He and his wife, an academic, had lived in the country once before for about three or four years, according to Zarina Shuib.Shuib had migrated to New Zealand about 18 months ago after his eldest daughter, 19, was offered a place to study at university there. He and his wife, an academic, had lived in the country once before for about three or four years, according to Zarina Shuib.