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Tillerson Says Kushner Bypassed Him and Mattis to Make Foreign Policy Tillerson Says Kushner Bypassed Him and Mattis to Make Foreign Policy
(32 minutes later)
WASHINGTON — Over a dinner in Riyadh in 2017, Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, talked with Saudi and Emirati leaders about their secret plans to impose a blockade on a critical American ally, Qatar. On another night, in a quiet corner of a Washington restaurant, Mr. Kushner huddled with the foreign minister of Mexico. WASHINGTON — In a meeting in Riyadh in 2017, Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, talked with Saudi and Emirati leaders about their secret plans to impose a blockade on a critical American ally, Qatar. On another night, in a quiet corner of a Washington restaurant, Mr. Kushner huddled with the foreign minister of Mexico.
Left out of the loop in both cases was Rex W. Tillerson, then secretary of state. When he stumbled into Mr. Kushner and the Mexican foreign minister at the restaurant in Washington, Mr. Tillerson said he saw “the color go out” of the minister’s face.Left out of the loop in both cases was Rex W. Tillerson, then secretary of state. When he stumbled into Mr. Kushner and the Mexican foreign minister at the restaurant in Washington, Mr. Tillerson said he saw “the color go out” of the minister’s face.
Not until last month, in a closed-door interview before Congress, did Mr. Tillerson learn of Mr. Kushner’s discussions on the blockade with Arab leaders.Not until last month, in a closed-door interview before Congress, did Mr. Tillerson learn of Mr. Kushner’s discussions on the blockade with Arab leaders.
[Read the transcript of the full interview with Mr. Tillerson.][Read the transcript of the full interview with Mr. Tillerson.]
“It makes me angry,” he told lawmakers and their aides. “I didn’t have a say. The State Department’s views were never expressed.”“It makes me angry,” he told lawmakers and their aides. “I didn’t have a say. The State Department’s views were never expressed.”
Those accounts highlight the extent to which Mr. Kushner was quietly seeking to manage some of the nation’s most sensitive foreign policy issues, leaving Mr. Tillerson and other senior national security officials — including Jim Mattis, then the defense secretary — in the dark.Those accounts highlight the extent to which Mr. Kushner was quietly seeking to manage some of the nation’s most sensitive foreign policy issues, leaving Mr. Tillerson and other senior national security officials — including Jim Mattis, then the defense secretary — in the dark.
In some cases, as in the blockade of Qatar, where the United States has its main Middle East military air base, Mr. Kushner’s moves forced Mr. Tillerson and Mr. Mattis to scramble to contain the damage to American diplomacy.In some cases, as in the blockade of Qatar, where the United States has its main Middle East military air base, Mr. Kushner’s moves forced Mr. Tillerson and Mr. Mattis to scramble to contain the damage to American diplomacy.
The details emerged in a seven-hour interview conducted on May 21 by the House Foreign Affairs Committee, which had asked Mr. Tillerson to talk about the inner workings of the Trump administration.The details emerged in a seven-hour interview conducted on May 21 by the House Foreign Affairs Committee, which had asked Mr. Tillerson to talk about the inner workings of the Trump administration.
Mr. Tillerson described the challenges of briefing the president, saying he had to be “very concise.” He covered topics that have generated great controversy since Mr. Trump took office in January 2017: Mr. Trump’s meetings with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, the administration’s hard-line immigration policy and Mr. Kushner’s dealings with leaders of Persian Gulf nations.Mr. Tillerson described the challenges of briefing the president, saying he had to be “very concise.” He covered topics that have generated great controversy since Mr. Trump took office in January 2017: Mr. Trump’s meetings with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, the administration’s hard-line immigration policy and Mr. Kushner’s dealings with leaders of Persian Gulf nations.
“You said that you raised concerns about this phenomenon with Mr. Kushner and he said he would try to do better,” a committee aide said, referring to Mr. Kushner working with foreign officials independently of Mr. Tillerson. “Did you raise it with others, other key players in the administration or the president himself?”“You said that you raised concerns about this phenomenon with Mr. Kushner and he said he would try to do better,” a committee aide said, referring to Mr. Kushner working with foreign officials independently of Mr. Tillerson. “Did you raise it with others, other key players in the administration or the president himself?”
Mr. Tillerson said he did.Mr. Tillerson said he did.
A White House spokesman, Hogan Gidley, said Thursday night that “Jared consistently follows proper protocols” with the National Security Council and State Department. The dinner in Riyadh as described “never happened,” he said, and no one in the White House was “involved in the blockade.” He added that Mr. Kushner’s work with Mexico had led to positive results on trade and other issues. A White House spokesman, Hogan Gidley, said Thursday night that “Jared consistently follows proper protocols” with the National Security Council and State Department. He said the “alleged ‘dinner’ to supposedly discuss the blockade never happened,” and no one in the White House was “involved in the blockade.” (A transcript of the interview with Mr. Tillerson described the Riyadh meeting as a dinner.) He added that Mr. Kushner’s work with Mexico had led to positive results on trade and other issues.
The New York Times obtained a copy of the committee’s interview transcript before its release on Thursday afternoon. Parts had been redacted at the request of Mr. Tillerson and the State Department. The New York Times and several other news organizations obtained a copy of the committee’s interview transcript before its release on Thursday afternoon. Parts had been redacted at the request of Mr. Tillerson and the State Department.
Mr. Tillerson became secretary of state in February 2017, after being asked to meet with Mr. Trump, Mr. Kushner and two other aides, Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus, in Trump Tower. But Mr. Tillerson and Mr. Trump subsequently clashed over policy, the president’s management style and his intellectual capacity — Mr. Tillerson is said to have once called Mr. Trump a “moron” to other officials — before Mr. Tillerson was fired in March 2018.Mr. Tillerson became secretary of state in February 2017, after being asked to meet with Mr. Trump, Mr. Kushner and two other aides, Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus, in Trump Tower. But Mr. Tillerson and Mr. Trump subsequently clashed over policy, the president’s management style and his intellectual capacity — Mr. Tillerson is said to have once called Mr. Trump a “moron” to other officials — before Mr. Tillerson was fired in March 2018.
Mr. Tillerson also alienated State Department officials and career employees because he tried to cut the budget, left important posts open and, in their eyes, remained aloof — all of which he was asked about in the committee interview.Mr. Tillerson also alienated State Department officials and career employees because he tried to cut the budget, left important posts open and, in their eyes, remained aloof — all of which he was asked about in the committee interview.
The most telling anecdotes show Mr. Kushner and, to a degree, Mr. Bannon, making foreign policy in the shadows.The most telling anecdotes show Mr. Kushner and, to a degree, Mr. Bannon, making foreign policy in the shadows.
Mr. Tillerson, the former chief executive of Exxon Mobil, said that in the weeks leading up to a presidential summit in Riyadh in May 2017, Saudi officials did not give him any indication of their deepening political disputes with Qatar and their aim to join with the Emiratis and other Arab nations to impose a blockade.Mr. Tillerson, the former chief executive of Exxon Mobil, said that in the weeks leading up to a presidential summit in Riyadh in May 2017, Saudi officials did not give him any indication of their deepening political disputes with Qatar and their aim to join with the Emiratis and other Arab nations to impose a blockade.
One night around May 20, Saudi and Emirati leaders met with Mr. Kushner and Mr. Bannon over dinner and told the Americans of their plans. Mr. Tillerson said he had not heard of the dinner until the committee interview. One night around May 20, Saudi and Emirati leaders met with Mr. Kushner and Mr. Bannon over dinner and told the Americans of their plans for the blockade, a Democratic counsel said during the committee interview. Mr. Tillerson said he had not heard of the dinner until the committee interview.
Mr. Kushner has close ties with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed of the United Arab Emirates, two powerful rulers whose policies have roiled the Middle East and resulted in widespread human rights abuses, particularly in the Yemen war, critics say. The blockade of Qatar complicated the ability of the United States to manage delicate relationships in the Middle East.Mr. Kushner has close ties with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed of the United Arab Emirates, two powerful rulers whose policies have roiled the Middle East and resulted in widespread human rights abuses, particularly in the Yemen war, critics say. The blockade of Qatar complicated the ability of the United States to manage delicate relationships in the Middle East.
Mr. Tillerson told the committee that he and Mr. Mattis were both taken by surprise when they first heard about the blockade, begun on June 5, while on a diplomatic trip to Australia. Mr. Tillerson said he and Mr. Mattis scrambled to make calls to the Middle East.Mr. Tillerson told the committee that he and Mr. Mattis were both taken by surprise when they first heard about the blockade, begun on June 5, while on a diplomatic trip to Australia. Mr. Tillerson said he and Mr. Mattis scrambled to make calls to the Middle East.
“At that point, the most productive thing that I felt I could do, given where I was at the time, was to just ask all the parties to not escalate this further,” Mr. Tillerson said. “I didn’t have enough information to know if something had really set this off or an event that hadn’t been reported.”“At that point, the most productive thing that I felt I could do, given where I was at the time, was to just ask all the parties to not escalate this further,” Mr. Tillerson said. “I didn’t have enough information to know if something had really set this off or an event that hadn’t been reported.”
Mr. Tillerson was asked whether he had any suspicions that Mr. Kusher’s support of the blockade was tied to failed business negotiations between the Qataris and the Kushner family, which develops property. Mr. Tillerson said he could not “opine” on it.Mr. Tillerson was asked whether he had any suspicions that Mr. Kusher’s support of the blockade was tied to failed business negotiations between the Qataris and the Kushner family, which develops property. Mr. Tillerson said he could not “opine” on it.
Mr. Tillerson also told the committee in detail about a meeting that Mr. Kushner had with the foreign minister of Mexico, Luis Videgaray, at a Washington restaurant without Mr. Tillerson’s knowledge. The restaurant owner told Mr. Tillerson, who happened to be dining there the same night, about the presence of the other two men. Mr. Tillerson said he walked up to their table and watched the blood drain from Mr. Videgaray’s face.Mr. Tillerson also told the committee in detail about a meeting that Mr. Kushner had with the foreign minister of Mexico, Luis Videgaray, at a Washington restaurant without Mr. Tillerson’s knowledge. The restaurant owner told Mr. Tillerson, who happened to be dining there the same night, about the presence of the other two men. Mr. Tillerson said he walked up to their table and watched the blood drain from Mr. Videgaray’s face.
“I don’t want to interrupt what y’all are doing,” he said he told Mr. Videgaray while smiling broadly. “Give me a call next time you’re coming to town.”“I don’t want to interrupt what y’all are doing,” he said he told Mr. Videgaray while smiling broadly. “Give me a call next time you’re coming to town.”
Mr. Kushner would make frequent work trips overseas without telling the State Department and was “in charge of his own agenda,” Mr. Tillerson said.Mr. Kushner would make frequent work trips overseas without telling the State Department and was “in charge of his own agenda,” Mr. Tillerson said.
The committee pressed Mr. Tillerson on Mr. Trump’s relationship with Mr. Putin. Lawmakers asked why no note-taker was present for a July 2017 meeting between Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin in Hamburg, Germany. The lack of any formal record of some of Mr. Trump’s discussions with Mr. Putin has been a continuing controversy during his presidency.The committee pressed Mr. Tillerson on Mr. Trump’s relationship with Mr. Putin. Lawmakers asked why no note-taker was present for a July 2017 meeting between Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin in Hamburg, Germany. The lack of any formal record of some of Mr. Trump’s discussions with Mr. Putin has been a continuing controversy during his presidency.
Mr. Tillerson said “the Russians preferred” no note-taker be present at the session, which he attended along with Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister. The American side agreed, he said, because the meeting was expected to be a short, introductory exchange of pleasantries.Mr. Tillerson said “the Russians preferred” no note-taker be present at the session, which he attended along with Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister. The American side agreed, he said, because the meeting was expected to be a short, introductory exchange of pleasantries.
Instead, the meeting lasted well over two hours. Mr. Tillerson said that Mr. Putin came “very prepared” to discuss an issue that Mr. Tillerson did not describe. Mr. Trump was not as prepared “because we didn’t expect that’s the way it was going to go,” he said.Instead, the meeting lasted well over two hours. Mr. Tillerson said that Mr. Putin came “very prepared” to discuss an issue that Mr. Tillerson did not describe. Mr. Trump was not as prepared “because we didn’t expect that’s the way it was going to go,” he said.
Mr. Trump has said that in that conversation, Mr. Putin twice denied that the Russian government had interfered in the 2016 presidential election.Mr. Trump has said that in that conversation, Mr. Putin twice denied that the Russian government had interfered in the 2016 presidential election.
Asked about the president’s style, Mr. Tillerson said that he disliked briefing reports and detailed policy discussions, often approached issues with his mind already made up, and routinely veered off into unexpected topics during meetings.Asked about the president’s style, Mr. Tillerson said that he disliked briefing reports and detailed policy discussions, often approached issues with his mind already made up, and routinely veered off into unexpected topics during meetings.
He declined to criticize the president’s undisciplined approach, saying it was up to aides to adapt.He declined to criticize the president’s undisciplined approach, saying it was up to aides to adapt.
But he did not defend Mr. Trump’s character. Asked if he could describe the president’s value system, he replied, “No, I can’t.”But he did not defend Mr. Trump’s character. Asked if he could describe the president’s value system, he replied, “No, I can’t.”