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Carl Sargeant inquest: ex-first minister's evidence contradicted in court Carl Sargeant inquest hears ex-first minister lied under oath
(about 4 hours later)
Evidence given by the former Welsh first minister Carwyn Jones at an inquest into the death of the politician Carl Sargeant has been contradicted by another assembly member. The former Welsh first minister Carwyn Jones has been accused of lying under oath over the support measures put in place to protect a colleague who was found dead after allegations of inappropriate sexual behaviour.
Sargeant, the Alyn and Deeside AM, was found dead at his home in Connah’s Quay on 2 November 2017, four days after he was sacked from his job as cabinet secretary for communities and children after claims he had groped and touched women. Carl Sargeant died four days after being sacked by Jones from his post in the Welsh government. Family and friends strongly believe the way the dismissal was handled left him in despair.
An inquest into his death resumed on Monday after it was adjourned in November last year when a decision was made to recall Jones, then first minister. Giving evidence at the start of the inquest into Sargeant’s death last year, Jones had explained that a veteran Labour politician, Ann Jones, had been asked to stay in touch with Sargeant during the weekend after the sacking. Carwyn Jones had testified that he had spoken to Ann Jones over that weekend.
Jones had told the inquest about the “pastoral care” offered to Sargeant after his sacking and said the Vale of Clwyd AM, Ann Jones, had been tasked with liaising with him. However, he told the resumed inquest in Ruthin, north Wales, on Monday that in fact he had not spoken to her that weekend. He insisted his previous evidence had been a mistake rather than a lie.
Ann Jones, appearing at the inquest at Ruthin county hall, said she did not believe she had been given a formal role. During fiery exchanges, Leslie Thomas QC – the barrister for Sargeant’s widow, Bernie, and son, Jack – directly accused Carwyn Jones of lying.
She said on the night of the reshuffle in which Sargeant lost his cabinet role she received a text message from Carwyn Jones’s special adviser, Matt Greenough. In the message, he said Sargeant had not taken the news of his sacking particularly well and asked her to “give him a bell” over the weekend. Thomas suggested the former first minister had only corrected his “mistake” after Ann Jones had flagged up that it was wrong. Thomas said: “You were caught out in a lie.” Carwyn Jones asked: “Are you accusing me of lying?” Thomas answered: “Yes, you were caught in a lie.”
Ann Jones told the inquest she had rang and messaged Sargeant as requested, but received no response until Monday, the evening before his death. The coroner, John Gittins, said he would make a judgment on Carwyn Jones’s credibility. He told Jones: “Either you were mistaken in what you said to me or I was misled, and perhaps deliberately so, with a view to some type of PR that made your position somewhat more tenable.”
In a text message to her, read to the court, Sargeant said: “I still have no idea of the allegation detail, all we know is off the BBC what the first minister briefed. When the inquest resumed, Ann Jones was the first to give evidence. She said she had not been given a formal role to care for Sargeant. Jones said that on the night after Sargeant was sacked she received a text message from Carwyn Jones’s special adviser, Matt Greenough, asking her to “give him a bell” over the weekend.
“Bastards. I’m telling no one again I’m thinking of running for first minister.” She told the inquest she had rung and messaged Sargeant but had received no response until Monday, the evening before his death, when he sent her several texts.
Leslie Thomas QC, representing Sargeant’s wife, Bernie, and son, Jack, said: “He feels he has been, for want of a better expression, stitched up because it was known he was thinking of applying for the first minister role.” In one read to the court, Sargeant wrote: “I still have no idea of the allegation detail, all we know is off the BBC what the first minister briefed. Bastards. I’m telling no one again I’m thinking of running for first minister.”
Ann Jones replied: “I don’t know what was behind Carl’s thinking on that one.” She said the day after Sargeant’s death she received a phone call from the first minister. Thomas suggested to Jones: “He feels he has been, for want of a better expression, stitched up because it was known he was thinking of applying for the first minister role.” Jones replied: “I don’t know what was behind Carl’s thinking on that one.”
She told the coroner’s court: “He said that he was going to say to the press that he had asked me to provide a caring role to Carl. I remember saying to him ‘don’t do that, that’s not what my understanding was’.” She said the first minister had phoned her the day after Sargeant’s death. She told the coroner’s court: “He said that he was going to say to the press that he had asked me to provide a caring role to Carl. I remember saying to him: ‘Don’t do that, that’s not what my understanding was.’”
Carwyn Jones, during evidence he gave to the inquest in November, said Ann Jones had been in contact with Sargeant and had two roles. Carwyn Jones, who stood down as first minister last year and remains AM for Bridgend, told the inquest he believed Sargeant had a “circle of support” around him and added: “If Carl needed help or advice he could have gone to Ann to get it … if there had been any difficulties Ann would have let us know.”
Son of Carl Sargeant: inquiry delay has left us unable to grieve Andy Sargeant, Carl’s brother, who was asking questions on behalf of other family members, told Jones: “For me, Mr Jones, it’s not a mistake. Your statement [on the contact he had with Ann Jones] isn’t a mistake, it’s a damage-limitation exercise.”
He said: “Firstly, to make sure there was liaison between the Labour group and Carl, so Carl knew what the whip would be, and secondly she played a pastoral role as well.” Jones sacked Sargeant, the AM for Alyn and Deeside in north Wales, from his job as cabinet secretary for communities and children in November 2017.
Ann Jones told the inquest: “That was not my understanding of why I was making contact with Carl.” She said she had known Sargeant, a fellow Labour politician, since he joined the assembly in 2003. The inquest continues.
“He’s always been appropriately professional and had always been a real gentlemen with me,” she said.
Carwyn Jones, who stepped down as first minister last year, and Greenough are both expected to give evidence later on Monday.
In the UK, Samaritans can be contacted on 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org. In the US, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 1-800-273-8255. In Australia, the crisis support service Lifeline is 13 11 14. Other international suicide helplines can be found at www.befrienders.org.
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Carwyn JonesCarwyn Jones
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