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The dangers of dispensing with good grammar The dangers of dispensing with good grammar
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David Shariatmadari’s long read (The myth of language decline, 15 August) is flawed. Many employers, university staff, A-level examiners and teachers complain bitterly about the low standards of English of school pupils, many of whom need remedial training to be of use.David Shariatmadari’s long read (The myth of language decline, 15 August) is flawed. Many employers, university staff, A-level examiners and teachers complain bitterly about the low standards of English of school pupils, many of whom need remedial training to be of use.
There was a worrying decline in standards of English from home students during my 40 years of teaching genetics at Imperial College London. Because the students’ language errors affected their genetics studies, I monitored standards.There was a worrying decline in standards of English from home students during my 40 years of teaching genetics at Imperial College London. Because the students’ language errors affected their genetics studies, I monitored standards.
Errors such as “seamen” for “semen”, “affect” for “effect” and “complimentary” for “complementary” made nonsense of the science. Jennifer Chew recorded the declining spelling standards at Strode College, Egham. From the 1960s, education authorities discouraged correction, and without correction, how can one learn? Teachers were reluctant to teach grammar. Some of my students had never learnt parts of speech or the use of the apostrophe. Errors such as “seamen” for “semen”, “affect” for “effect” and “complimentary” for “complementary” made nonsense of the science. Jennifer Chew recorded the declining spelling standards at Strode’s College, Egham. From the 1960s, education authorities discouraged correction, and without correction, how can one learn? Teachers were reluctant to teach grammar. Some of my students had never learnt parts of speech or the use of the apostrophe.
For efficient communication, we need fixed agreements on word meanings, or we could have lethal misunderstandings between surgeons and nurses, or pilots and control-tower staff.For efficient communication, we need fixed agreements on word meanings, or we could have lethal misunderstandings between surgeons and nurses, or pilots and control-tower staff.
Shariatmadari does not worry about the loss of distinction between “disinterested” and “uninterested”, but many similar losses impoverish the usefulness and precision of our language. He is wrong to assert that over centuries languages become unrecognisable. Surely he can understand the King James Bible of 1611? English has had periods of much-needed stabilisation from the Court of Chancery in the 1400s, from printing, and from Samuel Johnson’s dictionary in 1755.Shariatmadari does not worry about the loss of distinction between “disinterested” and “uninterested”, but many similar losses impoverish the usefulness and precision of our language. He is wrong to assert that over centuries languages become unrecognisable. Surely he can understand the King James Bible of 1611? English has had periods of much-needed stabilisation from the Court of Chancery in the 1400s, from printing, and from Samuel Johnson’s dictionary in 1755.
We in the Queen’s English Society want people to enjoy English more and to use it more effectively. Dr Bernard Lamb President of the Queen’s English Society, author of The Queen’s English and How to Use ItWe in the Queen’s English Society want people to enjoy English more and to use it more effectively. Dr Bernard Lamb President of the Queen’s English Society, author of The Queen’s English and How to Use It
• David Shariatmadari fails to address Douglas Rushkoff’s point. Words and spelling can change and it’s fascinating to read what he says. But grammar codifies meaning.• David Shariatmadari fails to address Douglas Rushkoff’s point. Words and spelling can change and it’s fascinating to read what he says. But grammar codifies meaning.
For example, presence, absence or positioning of commas and apostrophes can significantly alter meaning. Lawyers know this and will try to avoid their use.For example, presence, absence or positioning of commas and apostrophes can significantly alter meaning. Lawyers know this and will try to avoid their use.
The Apostrophe Protection Society gives many examples. We need an agreed code.The Apostrophe Protection Society gives many examples. We need an agreed code.
I don’t think Shariatmadari considers this aspect of language. This makes him and Rushkoff correct, but in different ways.Pat BaileyBirminghamI don’t think Shariatmadari considers this aspect of language. This makes him and Rushkoff correct, but in different ways.Pat BaileyBirmingham
• I read David Shariatmadari’s article on language with interest and I appreciate the point he makes.• I read David Shariatmadari’s article on language with interest and I appreciate the point he makes.
However, it is not quite the end of the matter. People are no longer aware that words change according to their grammatical function. English relies on word order to convey meaning but this does not imply you can dispense with grammar. People who would never dream of saying “me went” or “for I” very often say “me and John went” and “this is for you and I”. It is not necessary to impose grammar on anybody; it is merely a question of consistency.However, it is not quite the end of the matter. People are no longer aware that words change according to their grammatical function. English relies on word order to convey meaning but this does not imply you can dispense with grammar. People who would never dream of saying “me went” or “for I” very often say “me and John went” and “this is for you and I”. It is not necessary to impose grammar on anybody; it is merely a question of consistency.
As for interjecting with “like” on a general basis, that is another story…Simon KeetonBurnley, LancashireAs for interjecting with “like” on a general basis, that is another story…Simon KeetonBurnley, Lancashire
• I much enjoyed David Shariatmadari’s long read, which covered a number of the concepts in the A-level English Language syllabus I taught for 10 years or so before my retirement. One of the axioms dealt with was “all languages change or else they die”.• I much enjoyed David Shariatmadari’s long read, which covered a number of the concepts in the A-level English Language syllabus I taught for 10 years or so before my retirement. One of the axioms dealt with was “all languages change or else they die”.
I would, however, take issue with his assertion that one wouldn’t say “I’m gonna shops”. Being Barnsley born and bred it was perfectly normal to say “I’m gonna t’shops for me mam” or “I’m gonna t’pictures”.Ken GamblesCalcutt, North YorkshireI would, however, take issue with his assertion that one wouldn’t say “I’m gonna shops”. Being Barnsley born and bred it was perfectly normal to say “I’m gonna t’shops for me mam” or “I’m gonna t’pictures”.Ken GamblesCalcutt, North Yorkshire
• David Shariatmadari has obviously never been to Bristol. I do not recall anyone ever saying “I’m gonna study history”, but I’ve heard “I’m gonna the shops” many times.Robert CraigWeston-super-Mare, Somerset• David Shariatmadari has obviously never been to Bristol. I do not recall anyone ever saying “I’m gonna study history”, but I’ve heard “I’m gonna the shops” many times.Robert CraigWeston-super-Mare, Somerset
• Join the debate – email guardian.letters@theguardian.com • The first letter above was amended on 22 August 2019 to correct the spelling of Strode’s College, Egham.
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