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| There Is Nothing This Man Can’t Wreck | There Is Nothing This Man Can’t Wreck |
| (about 4 hours later) | |
| Bret Stephens: Hi, Gail. Bad news: The White House has canceled its subscriptions to The Times and The Washington Post. Will our business survive? Will the Republic? | Bret Stephens: Hi, Gail. Bad news: The White House has canceled its subscriptions to The Times and The Washington Post. Will our business survive? Will the Republic? |
| Gail Collins: Bret, the one lonely good thing I can say about our president is that he’s been good for business. | Gail Collins: Bret, the one lonely good thing I can say about our president is that he’s been good for business. |
| Bret: At last count, we’re at 4.7 million subscribers, up from 3 million when Trump was elected. Thank you, Mr. President! | Bret: At last count, we’re at 4.7 million subscribers, up from 3 million when Trump was elected. Thank you, Mr. President! |
| Gail: So we’ll certainly be fine. And you know Trump is going to be keeping up with the media, newspapers included. Not a man who doesn’t care what people are saying about him. I suspect there’s a digital account somewhere in somebody else’s name. | Gail: So we’ll certainly be fine. And you know Trump is going to be keeping up with the media, newspapers included. Not a man who doesn’t care what people are saying about him. I suspect there’s a digital account somewhere in somebody else’s name. |
| [The big debates, distilled. This guide will put in context what people are saying about the pressing issues of the week. Sign up for our new newsletter, Debatable.] | |
| Bret: We’ll have to ask our subs department if someone by the name of John Dotard Drumpf takes out a subscription at 1651 Pennsylvania Ave., better known as Blair House. I’ll be counting the hours until Trump takes to Twitter to unload on one of our reporters. | Bret: We’ll have to ask our subs department if someone by the name of John Dotard Drumpf takes out a subscription at 1651 Pennsylvania Ave., better known as Blair House. I’ll be counting the hours until Trump takes to Twitter to unload on one of our reporters. |
| By the way, where are you these days? | By the way, where are you these days? |
| Gail: I’ve been off on a book tour, speaking with a lot of our readers. (A whole lot of them told me to send their regards to you, by the way.) They definitely wanted to talk about the president, but they didn’t seem all that focused on impeachment. I’m beginning to think that everybody but about nine Republican senators has made up their mind and that’s it. | Gail: I’ve been off on a book tour, speaking with a lot of our readers. (A whole lot of them told me to send their regards to you, by the way.) They definitely wanted to talk about the president, but they didn’t seem all that focused on impeachment. I’m beginning to think that everybody but about nine Republican senators has made up their mind and that’s it. |
| Bret: You have the best readers, Gail. | Bret: You have the best readers, Gail. |
| As we’ve discussed, I’ve been coming around to your way of thinking on impeachment. And if there are more revelations of the kind that we’ve seen since our last conversation — from acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, or U.S. chargé d’affaires in Ukraine Bill Taylor, or wannabe Secretary of State Rudy Giuliani — I don’t think I will be alone in this. Not only did the president clearly do what he denies doing, but he has directed his subordinates to stonewall the Congress and lie to the American people. | As we’ve discussed, I’ve been coming around to your way of thinking on impeachment. And if there are more revelations of the kind that we’ve seen since our last conversation — from acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, or U.S. chargé d’affaires in Ukraine Bill Taylor, or wannabe Secretary of State Rudy Giuliani — I don’t think I will be alone in this. Not only did the president clearly do what he denies doing, but he has directed his subordinates to stonewall the Congress and lie to the American people. |
| At some point, that chant Trump heard at the World Series the other day is going to become deafening: “Lock Him Up!” Or, as they say in the Middle East, khalas! — “Enough!” | At some point, that chant Trump heard at the World Series the other day is going to become deafening: “Lock Him Up!” Or, as they say in the Middle East, khalas! — “Enough!” |
| Gail: Well, if you’re just thinking of Americans in general, the cries of khalas! have been thundering to the skies for ages. But you’re thinking Republican senators, right? Any defectors you know of? | Gail: Well, if you’re just thinking of Americans in general, the cries of khalas! have been thundering to the skies for ages. But you’re thinking Republican senators, right? Any defectors you know of? |
| Bret: There’s no way the Senate will every reach the two-thirds majority it needs to remove Trump from office. But if John Bolton testifies, I think it could be devastating and move the needle with at least a few Republicans. If, or rather when, Trump does get impeached by the House and just four G.O.P. senators vote to convict — I’m specifically thinking of Susan Collins of Maine, Ben Sasse of Nebraska, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, and (your favorite dog lover) Mitt Romney of Utah — then you would have a majority. A moral majority, if you will. And that could devastate his re-election chances. | Bret: There’s no way the Senate will every reach the two-thirds majority it needs to remove Trump from office. But if John Bolton testifies, I think it could be devastating and move the needle with at least a few Republicans. If, or rather when, Trump does get impeached by the House and just four G.O.P. senators vote to convict — I’m specifically thinking of Susan Collins of Maine, Ben Sasse of Nebraska, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, and (your favorite dog lover) Mitt Romney of Utah — then you would have a majority. A moral majority, if you will. And that could devastate his re-election chances. |
| Gail: Once the House gets its work done, perhaps we can start a Make It A Majority movement. Then if impeachment gets 51 votes we can declare victory. Which wouldn’t mean anything in practice but it would certainly drive Trump crazy. | Gail: Once the House gets its work done, perhaps we can start a Make It A Majority movement. Then if impeachment gets 51 votes we can declare victory. Which wouldn’t mean anything in practice but it would certainly drive Trump crazy. |
| Bret: I love your Make It A Majority idea; it just needs a hashtag. Here’s something Democrats and independent voters might consider doing in Utah, Alaska, Nebraska, Maine and other states with G.O.P. senators: Promise to vote for those senators in their next election if they vote to convict and remove. It’s a decent, one-time bargain: If those G.O.P. senators vote to save democracy, voters on the other side will do their part to help save their seats. | Bret: I love your Make It A Majority idea; it just needs a hashtag. Here’s something Democrats and independent voters might consider doing in Utah, Alaska, Nebraska, Maine and other states with G.O.P. senators: Promise to vote for those senators in their next election if they vote to convict and remove. It’s a decent, one-time bargain: If those G.O.P. senators vote to save democracy, voters on the other side will do their part to help save their seats. |
| Gail: Lately, I’ve been trying to listen to some of Trump’s performances with an open mind. Or maybe blank. Just pretending I don’t know anything about him and judging him just on the one moment I’m watching. | Gail: Lately, I’ve been trying to listen to some of Trump’s performances with an open mind. Or maybe blank. Just pretending I don’t know anything about him and judging him just on the one moment I’m watching. |
| Bret: You must really be going deep with those meditation apps, Gail! I could never achieve that kind of composure. | Bret: You must really be going deep with those meditation apps, Gail! I could never achieve that kind of composure. |
| Gail: On Sunday I was blank-mind-watching his announcement that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was dead as a result of an American raid. How could you not feel positive about that? But the president’s language was so self-serving, you’d think he did the deed himself, (“We moved very, very quickly”) Even on this, he lost me. | Gail: On Sunday I was blank-mind-watching his announcement that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was dead as a result of an American raid. How could you not feel positive about that? But the president’s language was so self-serving, you’d think he did the deed himself, (“We moved very, very quickly”) Even on this, he lost me. |
| Bret: As you know, Gail, I wasn’t exactly Barack Obama’s No. 1 fan when he was in office. But after watching Trump’s performance on Sunday, I went back and watched Obama’s 2011 announcement of Osama bin Laden’s death. It was dignified and eloquent. And then I watched George H.W. Bush’s February 1991 announcement of victory in the gulf war, when he said this was “certainly not a time to gloat.” What a contrast these two presidents provide! What depressing reminders of what presidential behavior used to look like! | Bret: As you know, Gail, I wasn’t exactly Barack Obama’s No. 1 fan when he was in office. But after watching Trump’s performance on Sunday, I went back and watched Obama’s 2011 announcement of Osama bin Laden’s death. It was dignified and eloquent. And then I watched George H.W. Bush’s February 1991 announcement of victory in the gulf war, when he said this was “certainly not a time to gloat.” What a contrast these two presidents provide! What depressing reminders of what presidential behavior used to look like! |
| Gail: We’re witnessing the birth of a new, 21st-century bottom line for presidential performances. Imagine the most awful loudmouthed bully in your high school. If it’s better than that it’s achieved the new minimum. | Gail: We’re witnessing the birth of a new, 21st-century bottom line for presidential performances. Imagine the most awful loudmouthed bully in your high school. If it’s better than that it’s achieved the new minimum. |
| Bret: I’m as glad as anyone that al-Baghdadi is dead, and glad also that he was killed thanks to American action. I’m also sorry he murdered three children in the bargain. But whatever we accomplished against ISIS with his death we undermined with our withdrawal from northern Syria, which has jeopardized the continued imprisonment of thousands of captured ISIS terrorists. | Bret: I’m as glad as anyone that al-Baghdadi is dead, and glad also that he was killed thanks to American action. I’m also sorry he murdered three children in the bargain. But whatever we accomplished against ISIS with his death we undermined with our withdrawal from northern Syria, which has jeopardized the continued imprisonment of thousands of captured ISIS terrorists. |
| Gail: Truly the bottom line rule of this administration is that no news is ever going to be really good. DJT will always find a way to make it awful. | Gail: Truly the bottom line rule of this administration is that no news is ever going to be really good. DJT will always find a way to make it awful. |
| Bret: May I switch the subject, though? As bad as things are going for Trump, I fear they are going worse for Democrats. The presidential field is just a mess. | Bret: May I switch the subject, though? As bad as things are going for Trump, I fear they are going worse for Democrats. The presidential field is just a mess. |
| Gail: So glad you asked. When I’m out on the road, everybody asks if there’s any problem having these political arguments, given that you and I clearly get along so well. I always say that the main difficulty is fighting with someone who despises Donald Trump even more than I do. Then I add that if things get too convivial, I just bring up Elizabeth Warren. | Gail: So glad you asked. When I’m out on the road, everybody asks if there’s any problem having these political arguments, given that you and I clearly get along so well. I always say that the main difficulty is fighting with someone who despises Donald Trump even more than I do. Then I add that if things get too convivial, I just bring up Elizabeth Warren. |
| Bret: Thank goodness for that. | Bret: Thank goodness for that. |
| Gail: I don’t find the field all that disheartening. I think Warren could be a very good president. I do worry about electability. But she’s getting to be a better campaigner every day. And if Biden demonstrates over the next months that he can hang in there and take care of business, I’m fine with him. Buttigieg is too young and green, but if the primary voters don’t care, I’m good with him as president. The only serious candidate I have real reservations about is Bernie Sanders, who does not seem to play all that well with others. But compared with Donald Trump, he’s Franklin Roosevelt. | Gail: I don’t find the field all that disheartening. I think Warren could be a very good president. I do worry about electability. But she’s getting to be a better campaigner every day. And if Biden demonstrates over the next months that he can hang in there and take care of business, I’m fine with him. Buttigieg is too young and green, but if the primary voters don’t care, I’m good with him as president. The only serious candidate I have real reservations about is Bernie Sanders, who does not seem to play all that well with others. But compared with Donald Trump, he’s Franklin Roosevelt. |
| Bret: Judging by the small size of his crowds and his anemic fund-raising numbers (a leading indicator of future poll numbers), Biden is probably finished. The only good news is that this gives one of the moderates in the race a better chance of taking that center lane. It could also entice a moderate not currently in the race, like Best-Mayor-Ever Mike Bloomberg, to jump in. Since he’s probably reading this, all I’ll say is: Do it, Mike. Do it! You have nothing to lose except two percent of your net worth. | Bret: Judging by the small size of his crowds and his anemic fund-raising numbers (a leading indicator of future poll numbers), Biden is probably finished. The only good news is that this gives one of the moderates in the race a better chance of taking that center lane. It could also entice a moderate not currently in the race, like Best-Mayor-Ever Mike Bloomberg, to jump in. Since he’s probably reading this, all I’ll say is: Do it, Mike. Do it! You have nothing to lose except two percent of your net worth. |
| Gail: Very interesting possibility, Bloomberg. He was a very good mayor. Does he have the patience with hard-core, day-to-day politics to run for president? Would certainly enjoy discussing it with you. | Gail: Very interesting possibility, Bloomberg. He was a very good mayor. Does he have the patience with hard-core, day-to-day politics to run for president? Would certainly enjoy discussing it with you. |
| Bret: Regarding Sanders, he should step away from the race. I wish him good health and many happy years, but anyone who has a heart attack at his age should not run for president. And as for Warren, where do I start? | Bret: Regarding Sanders, he should step away from the race. I wish him good health and many happy years, but anyone who has a heart attack at his age should not run for president. And as for Warren, where do I start? |
| Gail: O.K., sitting down, relaxing, waiting for the barrage … | Gail: O.K., sitting down, relaxing, waiting for the barrage … |
| Bret: Here you go: She is promising to destroy or redesign two of the most productive and innovative industries in America: energy and tech. She is promising to take away private health insurance from about 170 million Americans, the majority of whom like their care. She is promising open borders, or something pretty close to it, for illegal migrants, and free health care thrown into the bargain. She is promising to enact policies, like free public college, that are handouts to the upper middle class. She is promising a Green New Deal that will cost trillions. She is vague on how she will fund all this, other than to promote a fantasy that Jeff Bezos and some other billionaires will be forced to cough up the dough. | Bret: Here you go: She is promising to destroy or redesign two of the most productive and innovative industries in America: energy and tech. She is promising to take away private health insurance from about 170 million Americans, the majority of whom like their care. She is promising open borders, or something pretty close to it, for illegal migrants, and free health care thrown into the bargain. She is promising to enact policies, like free public college, that are handouts to the upper middle class. She is promising a Green New Deal that will cost trillions. She is vague on how she will fund all this, other than to promote a fantasy that Jeff Bezos and some other billionaires will be forced to cough up the dough. |
| I could go on, and Lord knows the American people are easily sold on bogus political promises. (See Trump, Donald; “Big, Beautiful Wall.”) But all this spells one word to me, and I’ll shout it out: UNELECTABLE. | I could go on, and Lord knows the American people are easily sold on bogus political promises. (See Trump, Donald; “Big, Beautiful Wall.”) But all this spells one word to me, and I’ll shout it out: UNELECTABLE. |
| Gail: I know you know that if she gets elected, she’ll only get a little chunk of her agenda passed into law. There are pieces, like the free tuition part, that I’d like to see her rework substantially. It’s already clear she’s going to come up with a revised agenda and I say let’s wait for that to have a real point-by-point argument. | Gail: I know you know that if she gets elected, she’ll only get a little chunk of her agenda passed into law. There are pieces, like the free tuition part, that I’d like to see her rework substantially. It’s already clear she’s going to come up with a revised agenda and I say let’s wait for that to have a real point-by-point argument. |
| Really, we have to save something for after Thanksgiving. | Really, we have to save something for after Thanksgiving. |
| Bret: Agreed. And something tells me Warren will keep us cheerfully disagreeing for many more months after that. But, please, Democrats: Just nominate someone who will have this election in the bag from Day 1. Saving democracy from Trump is too important to be risked on an altar of progressive ideology. | Bret: Agreed. And something tells me Warren will keep us cheerfully disagreeing for many more months after that. But, please, Democrats: Just nominate someone who will have this election in the bag from Day 1. Saving democracy from Trump is too important to be risked on an altar of progressive ideology. |
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