This article is from the source 'nytimes' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/politics/hill-vindman-testimony-impeachment-transcripts.html
The article has changed 5 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 1 | Version 2 |
|---|---|
| Hill and Vindman Testimony: Key Excerpts From Impeachment Inquiry Transcripts | Hill and Vindman Testimony: Key Excerpts From Impeachment Inquiry Transcripts |
| (32 minutes later) | |
| House impeachment investigators on Friday released two more transcripts of closed-door depositions before the first public hearings in the inquiry begin next week. The transcripts include the testimonies of Fiona Hill, President Trump’s former adviser on Russia and Europe, and Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman of the Army, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council. | House impeachment investigators on Friday released two more transcripts of closed-door depositions before the first public hearings in the inquiry begin next week. The transcripts include the testimonies of Fiona Hill, President Trump’s former adviser on Russia and Europe, and Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman of the Army, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council. |
| Significant portions of what they had to say have already been reported, but the transcripts offer a fuller picture of what they knew about an apparent effort by the president and his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani to pressure Ukraine to conduct investigations of political rivals. | Significant portions of what they had to say have already been reported, but the transcripts offer a fuller picture of what they knew about an apparent effort by the president and his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani to pressure Ukraine to conduct investigations of political rivals. |
| Vindman transcript, Page 29: “I heard him say that this had been coordinated with White House Chief of Staff Mr. Mick Mulvaney.” | Vindman transcript, Page 29: “I heard him say that this had been coordinated with White House Chief of Staff Mr. Mick Mulvaney.” |
| Hill transcript, Page 69: “And Ambassador Sondland, in front of the Ukrainians, as I came in, was talking about how he had an agreement with Chief of Staff Mulvaney for a meeting with the Ukrainians if they were going to go forward with investigations. And my director for Ukraine was looking completely alarmed.” | Hill transcript, Page 69: “And Ambassador Sondland, in front of the Ukrainians, as I came in, was talking about how he had an agreement with Chief of Staff Mulvaney for a meeting with the Ukrainians if they were going to go forward with investigations. And my director for Ukraine was looking completely alarmed.” |
| In the colonel’s testimony, he recounted how Gordon D. Sondland, the American ambassador to the European Union, had asked Ukrainians for assistance with political investigations. The colonel was then asked how Mr. Sondland “came to believe that this deliverable was necessary?” He replied that he had heard Mr. Sondland say it had been coordinated with the acting White House chief of staff, Mr. Mulvaney. | In the colonel’s testimony, he recounted how Gordon D. Sondland, the American ambassador to the European Union, had asked Ukrainians for assistance with political investigations. The colonel was then asked how Mr. Sondland “came to believe that this deliverable was necessary?” He replied that he had heard Mr. Sondland say it had been coordinated with the acting White House chief of staff, Mr. Mulvaney. |
| Ms. Hill confirmed the colonel’s account, stating several times that she heard Mr. Sondland explicitly mention Mr. Mulvaney. Mr. Sondland’s discussions with Mr. Trump have prompted significant public scrutiny, but much less is known about what conversations, if any, he had with Mr. Mulvaney, who defied a House subpoena to testify himself on Friday. | Ms. Hill confirmed the colonel’s account, stating several times that she heard Mr. Sondland explicitly mention Mr. Mulvaney. Mr. Sondland’s discussions with Mr. Trump have prompted significant public scrutiny, but much less is known about what conversations, if any, he had with Mr. Mulvaney, who defied a House subpoena to testify himself on Friday. |
| The conversations could prove significant in understanding why Mr. Sondland came to believe that important parts of the United States-Ukraine relationship were contingent upon the Ukrainians publicly committing to investigations Mr. Trump wanted.— Danny Hakim and Nicholas Fandos | The conversations could prove significant in understanding why Mr. Sondland came to believe that important parts of the United States-Ukraine relationship were contingent upon the Ukrainians publicly committing to investigations Mr. Trump wanted.— Danny Hakim and Nicholas Fandos |
| Vindman transcript, Page 54: “President Zelensky specifically mentioned the company Burisma.” | |
| As the colonel recounts it, there were two significant omissions in the transcript of the July 25 call between Mr. Trump and President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine that he tried to fix, but were not changed. In one, where ellipses appear, Mr. Trump actually said that “there are recordings” related to former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. In another, Mr. Zelensky specifically mentioned Burisma, the Ukrainian gas company on which Mr. Biden’s younger son, Hunter Biden, had a board seat. In the transcript it appeared as “the company.”— Danny Hakim | |
| Hill transcript, Page 45: “His reaction was pained. And he basically said — in fact, he directly said: Rudy Giuliani is a hand grenade that is going to blow everybody up. He did make it clear that he didn’t feel that there was anything that he could personally do about this. | Hill transcript, Page 45: “His reaction was pained. And he basically said — in fact, he directly said: Rudy Giuliani is a hand grenade that is going to blow everybody up. He did make it clear that he didn’t feel that there was anything that he could personally do about this. |
| Ms. Hill testified that she spoke with her boss, John R. Bolton, Mr. Trump’s national security adviser, about the unsubstantiated attacks on Marie L. Yovanovitch, the United States ambassador to Ukraine. Ms. Hill later testified that Mr. Bolton had urged her to report another troubling meeting they both took part in related to Ukraine, but in this case, he appeared to wash his hands of what happened to the American ambassador, who was recalled from her post abruptly in May. | |
| Colonel Vindman affirmed Ms. Hill’s testimony, saying she relayed Mr. Bolton’s remark. | |
| Vindman transcript, Page 67: A. “She said that he was upset with what Ambassador Sondland was attempting to orchestrate. And in her account to me, she did specifically say, you know, he was a live hand grenade, or something to that extent.” | |
| Q. “Who was a live hand grenade?” | |
| A. “So, I guess, let me complete that logic. So that Ambassador Sondland was trying to orchestrate an investigation being called by Mayor Giuliani, who was a live hand grenade.” | |
| — Nicholas Fandos and Danny Hakim | |
| Vindman transcript, Page 180: “Basically we were trying to get to the bottom of why this hold was in place, why OMB was applying this hold. There were multiple memos that were transmitted from my directorate to Ambassador Bolton on, you know, keeping him abreast of this particular development.” | |
| After learning in mid-July that military aid to Ukraine had been abruptly frozen, Colonel Vindman told investigators that members of the National Security Council sent a series of memos to Mr. Bolton seeking to understand what they considered an “abnormal” process that led to the flow of aid being stopped. | |
| Days later, Colonel Vindman drafted a “presidential decision memorandum” for Mr. Bolton to present to President Trump. The memo discussed the importance of the aid for Ukraine and recommended that Mr. Trump release the hold. Colonel Vindman testified that he was told the memo came up at a meeting with the president, but that he took no immediate action.— Michael D. Shear | |
| Vindman transcript, Page 228: “It was a demand that the Ukrainians deliver these investigations in order to get what they have been looking for which is the presidential meeting.” | Vindman transcript, Page 228: “It was a demand that the Ukrainians deliver these investigations in order to get what they have been looking for which is the presidential meeting.” |
| Colonel Vindman told impeachment investigators that there was little ambiguity about what Mr. Trump was conveying on the July 25 call with Ukraine’s president when he asked for a “favor.” Mr. Trump and his allies have defended the call as “perfect” and have regularly pointed to the reconstructed transcript as evidence. Colonel Vindman also told investigators that specific words in the transcript were deliberately omitted from the version shared with the public.— Eileen Sullivan | |
| Hill transcript, Page 41: “I had had accusations similar to this being made against me as well. My entire first year of my tenure at the National Security Council was filled with hateful calls, conspiracy theories, which has started again, frankly, as it’s been announced that I’ve been giving this deposition, accusing me of being a Soros mole in the White House, of colluding with all kinds of enemies of the president, and, you know, of various improprieties.” | Hill transcript, Page 41: “I had had accusations similar to this being made against me as well. My entire first year of my tenure at the National Security Council was filled with hateful calls, conspiracy theories, which has started again, frankly, as it’s been announced that I’ve been giving this deposition, accusing me of being a Soros mole in the White House, of colluding with all kinds of enemies of the president, and, you know, of various improprieties.” |
| Ms. Hill, a longtime Russia expert and hawk, said that from the moment she started working on Mr. Trump’s National Security Council in 2017, she was subject to the same kind of “mishmash of conspiracy theories” that targeted Ms. Yovanovitch. She was called an ally of George Soros, the liberal billionaire philanthropist whose work to promote democracy in Europe and the United States had made him reviled by some on the right, and her loyalty to Mr. Trump was doubted, Ms. Hill testified. At points, she received death threats and calls to her home. | Ms. Hill, a longtime Russia expert and hawk, said that from the moment she started working on Mr. Trump’s National Security Council in 2017, she was subject to the same kind of “mishmash of conspiracy theories” that targeted Ms. Yovanovitch. She was called an ally of George Soros, the liberal billionaire philanthropist whose work to promote democracy in Europe and the United States had made him reviled by some on the right, and her loyalty to Mr. Trump was doubted, Ms. Hill testified. At points, she received death threats and calls to her home. |
| The question is by whom? Ms. Hill said it was clear to her that Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s private lawyer, and other American and Ukrainians working with him on business dealings were behind the smears on Ms. Yovanovitch. But she speculates that there were other, larger interests that were threatened by American officials advocating anticorruption and a tough stance against Russia.— Nicholas Fandos | The question is by whom? Ms. Hill said it was clear to her that Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s private lawyer, and other American and Ukrainians working with him on business dealings were behind the smears on Ms. Yovanovitch. But she speculates that there were other, larger interests that were threatened by American officials advocating anticorruption and a tough stance against Russia.— Nicholas Fandos |
| Vindman transcript, Page 31: “It was kind of an uncomfortable conversation, so people were just listening to it unfold.” | Vindman transcript, Page 31: “It was kind of an uncomfortable conversation, so people were just listening to it unfold.” |
| As the colonel recounts it, a July 10 debriefing followed a White House meeting with Ukrainian officials that Mr. Bolton cut short. Ukrainian officials also attended the debriefing, during which Mr. Sondland brought up the White House’s desire for Ukrainian help with political investigations. “He was talking about the 2016 elections and an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma,” the colonel said, referring to the Ukrainian gas company. | As the colonel recounts it, a July 10 debriefing followed a White House meeting with Ukrainian officials that Mr. Bolton cut short. Ukrainian officials also attended the debriefing, during which Mr. Sondland brought up the White House’s desire for Ukrainian help with political investigations. “He was talking about the 2016 elections and an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma,” the colonel said, referring to the Ukrainian gas company. |
| The remarks led the colonel to directly express concern to Mr. Sondland that they were inappropriate, and then later report the episode to the top lawyer at the National Security Council.— Danny Hakim | The remarks led the colonel to directly express concern to Mr. Sondland that they were inappropriate, and then later report the episode to the top lawyer at the National Security Council.— Danny Hakim |
| Vindman transcript, Page 57: “I’d periodically talked to the Ukrainian officials at the U.S. embassy here. And I would say — when they would ask me, you know, what do we do in this situation, I’d give them the same counsel consistently. The counsel I’d always give them is it’s a domestic issue, stay out of U.S. domestic issues. It could fracture bipartisan support.” | |
| In his testimony, the colonel said this is a consistent message he delivered to Ukrainian officials, including to Mr. Zelensky in a bilateral meeting on May 21 led by the energy secretary, Rick Perry. — Danny Hakim | |
| Hill transcript, Page 300-301: “He just expressed that he was also concerned. He didn’t give any specifics, you know, back again. He just gave me a good, you know, respectful hearing. And it was clear that he was very upset about what had happened to Ambassador Yovanovitch.” | Hill transcript, Page 300-301: “He just expressed that he was also concerned. He didn’t give any specifics, you know, back again. He just gave me a good, you know, respectful hearing. And it was clear that he was very upset about what had happened to Ambassador Yovanovitch.” |
| Ms. Hill said she spoke frequently with the deputy secretary of state, John J. Sullivan, who she said shared her concerns about Mr. Giuliani’s dealings with senior Ukraine government officials. Mr. Giuliani had all but bypassed the State Department’s expert diplomats to press Ukraine’s president to investigate Mr. Trump’s political enemies. | Ms. Hill said she spoke frequently with the deputy secretary of state, John J. Sullivan, who she said shared her concerns about Mr. Giuliani’s dealings with senior Ukraine government officials. Mr. Giuliani had all but bypassed the State Department’s expert diplomats to press Ukraine’s president to investigate Mr. Trump’s political enemies. |
| Mr. Sullivan, who has been nominated as ambassador to Russia, also told Ms. Hill “that both he and Secretary Pompeo had tried their best to head off what happened,” according to the transcript. | Mr. Sullivan, who has been nominated as ambassador to Russia, also told Ms. Hill “that both he and Secretary Pompeo had tried their best to head off what happened,” according to the transcript. |
| Hill transcript, page 301: Daniel Noble, the senior investigative counsel for House Intelligence Committee: “Did he ever say whether he ever tried to, himself, do something about it or get Secretary Pompeo to do something about it?” | Hill transcript, page 301: Daniel Noble, the senior investigative counsel for House Intelligence Committee: “Did he ever say whether he ever tried to, himself, do something about it or get Secretary Pompeo to do something about it?” |
| Ms. Hill: “He said that both he and Secretary Pompeo had tried their best to head off what happened.” | Ms. Hill: “He said that both he and Secretary Pompeo had tried their best to head off what happened.” |
| Mr. Noble: “Did he explain how they had tried?” | Mr. Noble: “Did he explain how they had tried?” |
| Ms. Hill: “He did not.” | Ms. Hill: “He did not.” |
| — Lara Jakes | — Lara Jakes |
| Vindman testimony, Page 250: “The tone in the call on the 21st of April was very positive, in my assessment. The call, the tone of the call on July 25th was not. It was — it was — I’m struggling for the words, but it was not a positive call. It was dour. If I think about it some more, I could probably come up with some other adjectives, but it was just — the difference between the calls was apparent.” | |
| Colonel Vindman was on both calls Mr. Trump had with Mr. Zelensky this year — the first one on April 21 to congratulate Mr. Zelensky on his victory. Impeachment investigators have asked about the April call as well. On Friday, Mr. Trump said, “If they want it, I will give it to them.” It was not immediately clear when the April transcript might be released.— Eileen Sullivan | |
| Hill transcript, Page 336-337: “It does not amount to a large-scale Ukrainian government effort to subvert our elections, which is comparable to anything that the Russians did in 2016. And if we start down this path, not discounting what one individual or a couple of individuals might have done, ahead of our 2020 elections, we are setting ourselves up for the same kind of failures and intelligence failures that we had before. Look, and I feel very strongly about this. I’m not trying to mess about here. … And so you should, too, in terms of our national security.” | |
| Steve Castor, a top aide to Representative Jim Jordan, the ranking member of the House Oversight and Reform Committee, repeatedly pressed Ms. Hill about a January 2017 article in Politico. The article describes how Alexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American woman who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee, met in 2016 with officials at Ukraine’s Embassy in an effort to expose ties between Russia and Mr. Trump’s campaign manager, Paul Manafort — ties that eventually led to his resignation from the campaign. | |
| Ms. Hill suggested that individual Ukrainian-Americans were also providing such information to Republican campaigns in the primary season, saying she “could give you a long list of people who were reaching out on all kinds of different fronts to all of the campaigns, all of the campaigns, from all kinds of different sources who were trying to do something like this.” | |
| She added on page 340: “It is a fiction that the Ukrainian Government was launching an effort to upend our election” and told Mr. Castor that “if you’re also trying to peddle an alternative variation of whether the Ukrainians subverted our election, I don’t want to be part of that, and I will not be part of it.” Mr. Castor said that he was just trying to understand what happened.— Charlie Savage | |
| Vindman testimony, Page 246: “I think we, all along, as this kind of influencer narrative was developing, we had discussed what we were seeing and, you know, tried to figure out what the best way to navigate this minefield was.” | Vindman testimony, Page 246: “I think we, all along, as this kind of influencer narrative was developing, we had discussed what we were seeing and, you know, tried to figure out what the best way to navigate this minefield was.” |
| Colonel Vindman confirms what other witnesses have said about how the shadow Ukraine policy was a clear departure from what they knew to be the United States policy in their roles overseeing parts of the Ukraine portfolio. This further undercuts Mr. Trump’s early claims that the whistle-blower’s account was “fictitious and incorrect.”— Eileen Sullivan | Colonel Vindman confirms what other witnesses have said about how the shadow Ukraine policy was a clear departure from what they knew to be the United States policy in their roles overseeing parts of the Ukraine portfolio. This further undercuts Mr. Trump’s early claims that the whistle-blower’s account was “fictitious and incorrect.”— Eileen Sullivan |
| Hill transcript, Page 209: “I basically didn’t engage any further because I was wondering to myself: That’s very strange. And I went to talk to Charlie Kupperman, who was going to be taking part on our behalf sitting in on the debriefing for the president. And I said: Apparently, the president may think that Kash Patel is our Ukraine director, and I just want to make sure there’s no embarrassment here. I’m not quite sure why that might be, but I want to flag for you that this is the case. And I related what I related to you. And I said: That probably means that Alex Vindman, our Ukraine director who had actually been on the presidential delegation, probably shouldn’t go into the debrief from the delegation.” | Hill transcript, Page 209: “I basically didn’t engage any further because I was wondering to myself: That’s very strange. And I went to talk to Charlie Kupperman, who was going to be taking part on our behalf sitting in on the debriefing for the president. And I said: Apparently, the president may think that Kash Patel is our Ukraine director, and I just want to make sure there’s no embarrassment here. I’m not quite sure why that might be, but I want to flag for you that this is the case. And I related what I related to you. And I said: That probably means that Alex Vindman, our Ukraine director who had actually been on the presidential delegation, probably shouldn’t go into the debrief from the delegation.” |
| Ms. Hill recounts being told that Mr. Trump wanted to speak to the Ukraine director for the National Security Council whom he apparently believed, incorrectly, was Kash Patel, an official for the council who formerly worked as a top Intelligence Committee staff aide to Representative Devin Nunes, a key Trump ally in trying to discredit the Russia investigation. The Times reported last month that impeachment investigators are trying to understand whether Mr. Patel played in a role in the parallel foreign policy toward Ukraine. | Ms. Hill recounts being told that Mr. Trump wanted to speak to the Ukraine director for the National Security Council whom he apparently believed, incorrectly, was Kash Patel, an official for the council who formerly worked as a top Intelligence Committee staff aide to Representative Devin Nunes, a key Trump ally in trying to discredit the Russia investigation. The Times reported last month that impeachment investigators are trying to understand whether Mr. Patel played in a role in the parallel foreign policy toward Ukraine. |
| According to Page 312, Ms. Hill said she was “alarmed” and found it a “red flag” that Mr. Patel was apparently providing materials directly to the president that she did not know about, and took his name off a distribution list for Ukraine-related matters.— Charlie Savage | According to Page 312, Ms. Hill said she was “alarmed” and found it a “red flag” that Mr. Patel was apparently providing materials directly to the president that she did not know about, and took his name off a distribution list for Ukraine-related matters.— Charlie Savage |
| Hill transcript, Page 168: “I am very confident based on all of the analysis that has been done — and, again, I don’t want to start getting into intelligence matters — that the Ukrainian government did not interfere in our election in 2016.” | Hill transcript, Page 168: “I am very confident based on all of the analysis that has been done — and, again, I don’t want to start getting into intelligence matters — that the Ukrainian government did not interfere in our election in 2016.” |
| Ms. Hill appears to be referring to an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory pushed by Mr. Giuliani that Ukraine had some involvement in the emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee. — Adam Goldman | Ms. Hill appears to be referring to an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory pushed by Mr. Giuliani that Ukraine had some involvement in the emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee. — Adam Goldman |