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Employers Rush to Adopt Virus Screening. The Tools May Not Help Much. Employers Rush to Adopt Virus Screening. The Tools May Not Help Much.
(4 days later)
Bob Grewal recently began testing a new health-screening setup for workers at a Subway restaurant he owns in Los Angeles near the University of Southern California.Bob Grewal recently began testing a new health-screening setup for workers at a Subway restaurant he owns in Los Angeles near the University of Southern California.
When he stepped inside the employee food prep area, a fever-detection and facial recognition camera service, PopID, quickly identified him by name and gauged his temperature. Then a small tablet screen underneath the camera posted a message that cleared him to enter.When he stepped inside the employee food prep area, a fever-detection and facial recognition camera service, PopID, quickly identified him by name and gauged his temperature. Then a small tablet screen underneath the camera posted a message that cleared him to enter.
“Thank you Bob, you have a healthy Temp. of 98.06,” the screen said. “PopID aims to create a safe environment and stop the spread of Covid-19.”“Thank you Bob, you have a healthy Temp. of 98.06,” the screen said. “PopID aims to create a safe environment and stop the spread of Covid-19.”
Mr. Grewal is one of many business leaders racing to deploy new employee health-tracking technologies in an effort to reopen the economy and make it safer for tens of millions of Americans to return to their jobs in factories, offices and stores. Some employers are requiring workers to fill out virus-screening questionnaires or asking them to try out social-distancing wristbands that vibrate if they get too close to each other. Some even hope to soon issue digital “immunity” badges to employees who have developed coronavirus antibodies, marking them as safe to return to work.Mr. Grewal is one of many business leaders racing to deploy new employee health-tracking technologies in an effort to reopen the economy and make it safer for tens of millions of Americans to return to their jobs in factories, offices and stores. Some employers are requiring workers to fill out virus-screening questionnaires or asking them to try out social-distancing wristbands that vibrate if they get too close to each other. Some even hope to soon issue digital “immunity” badges to employees who have developed coronavirus antibodies, marking them as safe to return to work.
But as intensified workplace surveillance becomes the new normal, it comes with a hitch: The technology may not do much to keep people safer.But as intensified workplace surveillance becomes the new normal, it comes with a hitch: The technology may not do much to keep people safer.
Public health experts and bioethicists said it was important for employers to find ways to protect their workers during the pandemic. But they cautioned there was little evidence to suggest that the new tools could accurately determine employees’ health status or contain virus outbreaks, even as they enabled companies to amass private health details on their workers.Public health experts and bioethicists said it was important for employers to find ways to protect their workers during the pandemic. But they cautioned there was little evidence to suggest that the new tools could accurately determine employees’ health status or contain virus outbreaks, even as they enabled companies to amass private health details on their workers.
“I think employers need to look carefully before they jump into any of this,” said Michael T. Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. “Some companies are embarking upon things that are not going to help and may actually set us back.”“I think employers need to look carefully before they jump into any of this,” said Michael T. Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. “Some companies are embarking upon things that are not going to help and may actually set us back.”
Over the past month, companies have started marketing a slew of employee-tracking tools to combat the virus.Over the past month, companies have started marketing a slew of employee-tracking tools to combat the virus.
PwC, the financial services firm, has developed a contact-tracing app to help employers “provide a lower-risk workplace for employees.” It will automatically log proximity between employees and can be used to help identify people who may have been exposed to the virus at work.PwC, the financial services firm, has developed a contact-tracing app to help employers “provide a lower-risk workplace for employees.” It will automatically log proximity between employees and can be used to help identify people who may have been exposed to the virus at work.
Salesforce, the giant software company, is offering a new tool, Work.com, to help employers “safely reopen.” Among other things, it will enable companies to create online employee health surveys and map the workplace locations visited by employees with coronavirus infections.Salesforce, the giant software company, is offering a new tool, Work.com, to help employers “safely reopen.” Among other things, it will enable companies to create online employee health surveys and map the workplace locations visited by employees with coronavirus infections.
Clear, a security company that uses biometric technology to verify people’s identities at airports and elsewhere, plans this week to start marketing a health-screening service that can be used to vet and clear employees to enter workplaces. The service will take employees’ temperatures with a thermal camera, as well as verify the results of their medical tests for the virus, sharing the results with employers as color-coded scores like green or red.Clear, a security company that uses biometric technology to verify people’s identities at airports and elsewhere, plans this week to start marketing a health-screening service that can be used to vet and clear employees to enter workplaces. The service will take employees’ temperatures with a thermal camera, as well as verify the results of their medical tests for the virus, sharing the results with employers as color-coded scores like green or red.
Caryn Seidman-Becker, the chief executive of Clear, compared her company’s multilevel health-screening approach to airport security checks where a person who sets off a metal detector gets a pat-down.Caryn Seidman-Becker, the chief executive of Clear, compared her company’s multilevel health-screening approach to airport security checks where a person who sets off a metal detector gets a pat-down.
“Nothing is foolproof,” Ms. Seidman-Becker said. “It’s putting them together that allows you to buy down risk and increase confidence.”“Nothing is foolproof,” Ms. Seidman-Becker said. “It’s putting them together that allows you to buy down risk and increase confidence.”
Companies are adopting new employee-tracking technologies partly in response to White House guidelines asking employers to monitor their “work force for indicative symptoms” and prohibit employees with symptoms from returning to workplaces unless a health provider has cleared them.Companies are adopting new employee-tracking technologies partly in response to White House guidelines asking employers to monitor their “work force for indicative symptoms” and prohibit employees with symptoms from returning to workplaces unless a health provider has cleared them.
Yet many of the tools — including certain infrared thermometers and antibody tests that would be needed for employee “immunity” certificates — can be wildly inaccurate. Public health experts said the tools could create a false sense of security, leading workers to spread the virus inadvertently.Yet many of the tools — including certain infrared thermometers and antibody tests that would be needed for employee “immunity” certificates — can be wildly inaccurate. Public health experts said the tools could create a false sense of security, leading workers to spread the virus inadvertently.
Fever-screening devices, for example, could miss many of the up to one-quarter or more people infected with the virus who do not exhibit symptoms. Or they could inadvertently expose employees who are running higher temperatures because they are under stress or have other health conditions, issues the workers may have preferred to keep private.Fever-screening devices, for example, could miss many of the up to one-quarter or more people infected with the virus who do not exhibit symptoms. Or they could inadvertently expose employees who are running higher temperatures because they are under stress or have other health conditions, issues the workers may have preferred to keep private.
Some law professors and bioethicists also warned that the idea of immunity certificates threatened to create a new class system for employment — one that could unfairly prevent certain people from working just because they had never contracted the virus.Some law professors and bioethicists also warned that the idea of immunity certificates threatened to create a new class system for employment — one that could unfairly prevent certain people from working just because they had never contracted the virus.
“Do we really want a world where some people can go to work and others can’t based on their immunity status?” said Hank Greely, a professor at Stanford Law School who studies the social implications of new health technologies. “The people who can’t will say, ‘This is unfair,’ and they’ll be right.”“Do we really want a world where some people can go to work and others can’t based on their immunity status?” said Hank Greely, a professor at Stanford Law School who studies the social implications of new health technologies. “The people who can’t will say, ‘This is unfair,’ and they’ll be right.”
He and other experts said companies would be better off investing in a proven health intervention — lab testing for coronavirus — for their employees rather than shiny, new surveillance technologies.He and other experts said companies would be better off investing in a proven health intervention — lab testing for coronavirus — for their employees rather than shiny, new surveillance technologies.
Gabrielle Rejouis, a workers’ rights advocate at the Center on Privacy and Technology at Georgetown Law, said employers should be “providing free testing for their workers if they’re expecting them to come into work, and also making sure that they are paying sick leave and appropriate health benefits to make sure that workers aren’t coming to work sick and infecting their co-workers.”Gabrielle Rejouis, a workers’ rights advocate at the Center on Privacy and Technology at Georgetown Law, said employers should be “providing free testing for their workers if they’re expecting them to come into work, and also making sure that they are paying sick leave and appropriate health benefits to make sure that workers aren’t coming to work sick and infecting their co-workers.”
Many of the worker-screening tools are being introduced with minimal government oversight — and with few details for employees about how companies are using and safeguarding their health data, or how long they plan to keep it.Many of the worker-screening tools are being introduced with minimal government oversight — and with few details for employees about how companies are using and safeguarding their health data, or how long they plan to keep it.
To support emergency responses to the pandemic, the Food and Drug Administration is temporarily allowing companies to market infrared thermal camera systems that have not been vetted by health regulators for temperature checks in places like warehouses and factories. Similarly, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which enforces antidiscrimination rules that generally prohibit employers from requiring employees to undergo medical exams, said in March that, given the coronavirus threat, employers may measure employees’ temperatures.To support emergency responses to the pandemic, the Food and Drug Administration is temporarily allowing companies to market infrared thermal camera systems that have not been vetted by health regulators for temperature checks in places like warehouses and factories. Similarly, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which enforces antidiscrimination rules that generally prohibit employers from requiring employees to undergo medical exams, said in March that, given the coronavirus threat, employers may measure employees’ temperatures.
The federal law on patient privacy, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act or HIPAA, also puts few restrictions on employers. Although the law protects employee health information collected by an employer for company-sponsored group health plans, it generally does not protect employee health data collected for other purposes, legal experts said.The federal law on patient privacy, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act or HIPAA, also puts few restrictions on employers. Although the law protects employee health information collected by an employer for company-sponsored group health plans, it generally does not protect employee health data collected for other purposes, legal experts said.
As a result, companies are forging their own approaches to health-screening accuracy and privacy.As a result, companies are forging their own approaches to health-screening accuracy and privacy.
Some restaurants and warehouses, for instance, are using hand-held infrared devices to assess workers’ temperatures. PopID, the restaurant technology company behind the temperature-scanning system that Mr. Grewal is trying at his Subway franchises, uses wall-mounted thermal-imaging cameras that employees stop in front of for temperature checks.Some restaurants and warehouses, for instance, are using hand-held infrared devices to assess workers’ temperatures. PopID, the restaurant technology company behind the temperature-scanning system that Mr. Grewal is trying at his Subway franchises, uses wall-mounted thermal-imaging cameras that employees stop in front of for temperature checks.
The system records the date, time, employee name and temperature, creating a historical log for employers who want to check on worker compliance. Employers can choose to keep or delete that data.The system records the date, time, employee name and temperature, creating a historical log for employers who want to check on worker compliance. Employers can choose to keep or delete that data.
Updated June 12, 2020Updated June 12, 2020
Touching contaminated objects and then infecting ourselves with the germs is not typically how the virus spreads. But it can happen. A number of studies of flu, rhinovirus, coronavirus and other microbes have shown that respiratory illnesses, including the new coronavirus, can spread by touching contaminated surfaces, particularly in places like day care centers, offices and hospitals. But a long chain of events has to happen for the disease to spread that way. The best way to protect yourself from coronavirus — whether it’s surface transmission or close human contact — is still social distancing, washing your hands, not touching your face and wearing masks.
So far, the evidence seems to show it does. A widely cited paper published in April suggests that people are most infectious about two days before the onset of coronavirus symptoms and estimated that 44 percent of new infections were a result of transmission from people who were not yet showing symptoms. Recently, a top expert at the World Health Organization stated that transmission of the coronavirus by people who did not have symptoms was “very rare,” but she later walked back that statement.So far, the evidence seems to show it does. A widely cited paper published in April suggests that people are most infectious about two days before the onset of coronavirus symptoms and estimated that 44 percent of new infections were a result of transmission from people who were not yet showing symptoms. Recently, a top expert at the World Health Organization stated that transmission of the coronavirus by people who did not have symptoms was “very rare,” but she later walked back that statement.
Touching contaminated objects and then infecting ourselves with the germs is not typically how the virus spreads. But it can happen. A number of studies of flu, rhinovirus, coronavirus and other microbes have shown that respiratory illnesses, including the new coronavirus, can spread by touching contaminated surfaces, particularly in places like day care centers, offices and hospitals. But a long chain of events has to happen for the disease to spread that way. The best way to protect yourself from coronavirus — whether it’s surface transmission or close human contact — is still social distancing, washing your hands, not touching your face and wearing masks.
A study by European scientists is the first to document a strong statistical link between genetic variations and Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus. Having Type A blood was linked to a 50 percent increase in the likelihood that a patient would need to get oxygen or to go on a ventilator, according to the new study.A study by European scientists is the first to document a strong statistical link between genetic variations and Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus. Having Type A blood was linked to a 50 percent increase in the likelihood that a patient would need to get oxygen or to go on a ventilator, according to the new study.
The unemployment rate fell to 13.3 percent in May, the Labor Department said on June 5, an unexpected improvement in the nation’s job market as hiring rebounded faster than economists expected. Economists had forecast the unemployment rate to increase to as much as 20 percent, after it hit 14.7 percent in April, which was the highest since the government began keeping official statistics after World War II. But the unemployment rate dipped instead, with employers adding 2.5 million jobs, after more than 20 million jobs were lost in April.The unemployment rate fell to 13.3 percent in May, the Labor Department said on June 5, an unexpected improvement in the nation’s job market as hiring rebounded faster than economists expected. Economists had forecast the unemployment rate to increase to as much as 20 percent, after it hit 14.7 percent in April, which was the highest since the government began keeping official statistics after World War II. But the unemployment rate dipped instead, with employers adding 2.5 million jobs, after more than 20 million jobs were lost in April.
Mass protests against police brutality that have brought thousands of people onto the streets in cities across America are raising the specter of new coronavirus outbreaks, prompting political leaders, physicians and public health experts to warn that the crowds could cause a surge in cases. While many political leaders affirmed the right of protesters to express themselves, they urged the demonstrators to wear face masks and maintain social distancing, both to protect themselves and to prevent further community spread of the virus. Some infectious disease experts were reassured by the fact that the protests were held outdoors, saying the open air settings could mitigate the risk of transmission.Mass protests against police brutality that have brought thousands of people onto the streets in cities across America are raising the specter of new coronavirus outbreaks, prompting political leaders, physicians and public health experts to warn that the crowds could cause a surge in cases. While many political leaders affirmed the right of protesters to express themselves, they urged the demonstrators to wear face masks and maintain social distancing, both to protect themselves and to prevent further community spread of the virus. Some infectious disease experts were reassured by the fact that the protests were held outdoors, saying the open air settings could mitigate the risk of transmission.
Exercise researchers and physicians have some blunt advice for those of us aiming to return to regular exercise now: Start slowly and then rev up your workouts, also slowly. American adults tended to be about 12 percent less active after the stay-at-home mandates began in March than they were in January. But there are steps you can take to ease your way back into regular exercise safely. First, “start at no more than 50 percent of the exercise you were doing before Covid,” says Dr. Monica Rho, the chief of musculoskeletal medicine at the Shirley Ryan AbilityLab in Chicago. Thread in some preparatory squats, too, she advises. “When you haven’t been exercising, you lose muscle mass.” Expect some muscle twinges after these preliminary, post-lockdown sessions, especially a day or two later. But sudden or increasing pain during exercise is a clarion call to stop and return home.Exercise researchers and physicians have some blunt advice for those of us aiming to return to regular exercise now: Start slowly and then rev up your workouts, also slowly. American adults tended to be about 12 percent less active after the stay-at-home mandates began in March than they were in January. But there are steps you can take to ease your way back into regular exercise safely. First, “start at no more than 50 percent of the exercise you were doing before Covid,” says Dr. Monica Rho, the chief of musculoskeletal medicine at the Shirley Ryan AbilityLab in Chicago. Thread in some preparatory squats, too, she advises. “When you haven’t been exercising, you lose muscle mass.” Expect some muscle twinges after these preliminary, post-lockdown sessions, especially a day or two later. But sudden or increasing pain during exercise is a clarion call to stop and return home.
States are reopening bit by bit. This means that more public spaces are available for use and more and more businesses are being allowed to open again. The federal government is largely leaving the decision up to states, and some state leaders are leaving the decision up to local authorities. Even if you aren’t being told to stay at home, it’s still a good idea to limit trips outside and your interaction with other people.States are reopening bit by bit. This means that more public spaces are available for use and more and more businesses are being allowed to open again. The federal government is largely leaving the decision up to states, and some state leaders are leaving the decision up to local authorities. Even if you aren’t being told to stay at home, it’s still a good idea to limit trips outside and your interaction with other people.
Common symptoms include fever, a dry cough, fatigue and difficulty breathing or shortness of breath. Some of these symptoms overlap with those of the flu, making detection difficult, but runny noses and stuffy sinuses are less common. The C.D.C. has also added chills, muscle pain, sore throat, headache and a new loss of the sense of taste or smell as symptoms to look out for. Most people fall ill five to seven days after exposure, but symptoms may appear in as few as two days or as many as 14 days.Common symptoms include fever, a dry cough, fatigue and difficulty breathing or shortness of breath. Some of these symptoms overlap with those of the flu, making detection difficult, but runny noses and stuffy sinuses are less common. The C.D.C. has also added chills, muscle pain, sore throat, headache and a new loss of the sense of taste or smell as symptoms to look out for. Most people fall ill five to seven days after exposure, but symptoms may appear in as few as two days or as many as 14 days.
If air travel is unavoidable, there are some steps you can take to protect yourself. Most important: Wash your hands often, and stop touching your face. If possible, choose a window seat. A study from Emory University found that during flu season, the safest place to sit on a plane is by a window, as people sitting in window seats had less contact with potentially sick people. Disinfect hard surfaces. When you get to your seat and your hands are clean, use disinfecting wipes to clean the hard surfaces at your seat like the head and arm rest, the seatbelt buckle, the remote, screen, seat back pocket and the tray table. If the seat is hard and nonporous or leather or pleather, you can wipe that down, too. (Using wipes on upholstered seats could lead to a wet seat and spreading of germs rather than killing them.)If air travel is unavoidable, there are some steps you can take to protect yourself. Most important: Wash your hands often, and stop touching your face. If possible, choose a window seat. A study from Emory University found that during flu season, the safest place to sit on a plane is by a window, as people sitting in window seats had less contact with potentially sick people. Disinfect hard surfaces. When you get to your seat and your hands are clean, use disinfecting wipes to clean the hard surfaces at your seat like the head and arm rest, the seatbelt buckle, the remote, screen, seat back pocket and the tray table. If the seat is hard and nonporous or leather or pleather, you can wipe that down, too. (Using wipes on upholstered seats could lead to a wet seat and spreading of germs rather than killing them.)
Taking one’s temperature to look for signs of fever is not as easy as it sounds, as “normal” temperature numbers can vary, but generally, keep an eye out for a temperature of 100.5 degrees Fahrenheit or higher. If you don’t have a thermometer (they can be pricey these days), there are other ways to figure out if you have a fever, or are at risk of Covid-19 complications.Taking one’s temperature to look for signs of fever is not as easy as it sounds, as “normal” temperature numbers can vary, but generally, keep an eye out for a temperature of 100.5 degrees Fahrenheit or higher. If you don’t have a thermometer (they can be pricey these days), there are other ways to figure out if you have a fever, or are at risk of Covid-19 complications.
The C.D.C. has recommended that all Americans wear cloth masks if they go out in public. This is a shift in federal guidance reflecting new concerns that the coronavirus is being spread by infected people who have no symptoms. Until now, the C.D.C., like the W.H.O., has advised that ordinary people don’t need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing. Part of the reason was to preserve medical-grade masks for health care workers who desperately need them at a time when they are in continuously short supply. Masks don’t replace hand washing and social distancing.The C.D.C. has recommended that all Americans wear cloth masks if they go out in public. This is a shift in federal guidance reflecting new concerns that the coronavirus is being spread by infected people who have no symptoms. Until now, the C.D.C., like the W.H.O., has advised that ordinary people don’t need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing. Part of the reason was to preserve medical-grade masks for health care workers who desperately need them at a time when they are in continuously short supply. Masks don’t replace hand washing and social distancing.
If you’ve been exposed to the coronavirus or think you have, and have a fever or symptoms like a cough or difficulty breathing, call a doctor. They should give you advice on whether you should be tested, how to get tested, and how to seek medical treatment without potentially infecting or exposing others.If you’ve been exposed to the coronavirus or think you have, and have a fever or symptoms like a cough or difficulty breathing, call a doctor. They should give you advice on whether you should be tested, how to get tested, and how to seek medical treatment without potentially infecting or exposing others.
If you’re sick and you think you’ve been exposed to the new coronavirus, the C.D.C. recommends that you call your healthcare provider and explain your symptoms and fears. They will decide if you need to be tested. Keep in mind that there’s a chance — because of a lack of testing kits or because you’re asymptomatic, for instance — you won’t be able to get tested.If you’re sick and you think you’ve been exposed to the new coronavirus, the C.D.C. recommends that you call your healthcare provider and explain your symptoms and fears. They will decide if you need to be tested. Keep in mind that there’s a chance — because of a lack of testing kits or because you’re asymptomatic, for instance — you won’t be able to get tested.
“The decision to test temperature at a lot of these places has already been made,” said John Miller, the chief executive of the Cali Group, the parent company of PopID. “We’re just providing a better way to do it.”“The decision to test temperature at a lot of these places has already been made,” said John Miller, the chief executive of the Cali Group, the parent company of PopID. “We’re just providing a better way to do it.”
PopID is also being used by some Taco Bell franchises, assisted living facilities and Lemonade, a California restaurant chain.PopID is also being used by some Taco Bell franchises, assisted living facilities and Lemonade, a California restaurant chain.
Mr. Grewal, whose family owns more than 50 Subway franchises, said he did not expect the temperature-scanning system to be a panacea. He simply views it as a tool to help employers better protect their workers and make consumers feel safer — much like the plexiglass he has installed to separate customers placing takeout orders from employees filling them, he said.Mr. Grewal, whose family owns more than 50 Subway franchises, said he did not expect the temperature-scanning system to be a panacea. He simply views it as a tool to help employers better protect their workers and make consumers feel safer — much like the plexiglass he has installed to separate customers placing takeout orders from employees filling them, he said.
As part of the pilot test, he has asked employees to scan their temperatures four times a day — at the beginning and end of their work shifts, and before and after their break. The employee data is deleted every 30 days.As part of the pilot test, he has asked employees to scan their temperatures four times a day — at the beginning and end of their work shifts, and before and after their break. The employee data is deleted every 30 days.
“People are going to adjust,” Mr. Grewal said. “They’re going to have to understand all the safety precautions that chains have taken.”“People are going to adjust,” Mr. Grewal said. “They’re going to have to understand all the safety precautions that chains have taken.”
Even so, civil liberties experts said it was important for any virus-tracking of employees to be voluntary. Otherwise, by linking identification technologies like facial recognition to employees’ health status, employers could usher in an authoritarian, China-like system of surveillance and social control at workplaces.Even so, civil liberties experts said it was important for any virus-tracking of employees to be voluntary. Otherwise, by linking identification technologies like facial recognition to employees’ health status, employers could usher in an authoritarian, China-like system of surveillance and social control at workplaces.
“We are accepting encroachments on privacy here that we would not normally accept,” said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst at the American Civil Liberties Union. “We need to be vigilant to make sure that they don’t outlast this crisis.”“We are accepting encroachments on privacy here that we would not normally accept,” said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst at the American Civil Liberties Union. “We need to be vigilant to make sure that they don’t outlast this crisis.”
Four Republican senators recently said they would introduce a Covid-19 privacy bill to hold businesses accountable when they use people’s heath information to fight the pandemic.Four Republican senators recently said they would introduce a Covid-19 privacy bill to hold businesses accountable when they use people’s heath information to fight the pandemic.
As least for now, increased tracking and screening seem poised to become a fact of daily life not just for workers but also for consumers.As least for now, increased tracking and screening seem poised to become a fact of daily life not just for workers but also for consumers.
Clear, the biometric security company, already operates at sports arenas where fans can use their digital identities and faces to speed through fast-lane security checks. Now, said Ms. Seidman-Becker, Clear’s chief executive, restaurant groups, big-box retailers, sports teams, airlines and cruise ships are considering using Clear Health Pass, the company’s new identity verification and health-screening system, for both employees and customers.Clear, the biometric security company, already operates at sports arenas where fans can use their digital identities and faces to speed through fast-lane security checks. Now, said Ms. Seidman-Becker, Clear’s chief executive, restaurant groups, big-box retailers, sports teams, airlines and cruise ships are considering using Clear Health Pass, the company’s new identity verification and health-screening system, for both employees and customers.
“I really do think that this is ubiquitous,” she said.“I really do think that this is ubiquitous,” she said.