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| Nicola Sturgeon says harassment policy was not there 'to get Alex Salmond' - live updates | Nicola Sturgeon says harassment policy was not there 'to get Alex Salmond' - live updates |
| (30 minutes later) | |
| Follow live updates as Scotland’s first minister appears before MSPs, amid multiple allegations that she broke the ministerial code | Follow live updates as Scotland’s first minister appears before MSPs, amid multiple allegations that she broke the ministerial code |
| Mitchell says Police Scotland advised that Scottish government officers were not trained to investigate such allegations or deal with victims. Is it your position that you knew nothing about this, she asks the first minister? | |
| Sturgeon says she cannot answer that question as she does not know the decision-making of the government officials. | |
| Was it appropriate for the Scottish government officials to go ahead and investigate? | |
| Sturgeon replies that it would have been inappropriate not to investigate but says the committee will have to reach its own judgement. | |
| Mitchell says the Police Scotland advice was “crystal clear” but the officials ignored that. Also, the complainants’ right to decide whether to go forward with their complaints was “taken out of their hands”. The Scottish government officials should have been nowhere near that investigation, Mitchell posits. | |
| Sturgeon replies that none of this was reported to her. She cannot say whether the investigating officials always followed the advice. She would “push back” against a suggestion that the Scottish government should not have investigated. On reporting the allegations to the police despite the opposition of the complainers, Sturgeon says it can be appropriate at times. Given there was a police investigation subsequently, the first minister suggests there may have been some cooperation by the complainers. | |
| Jackie Baillie, Scottish Labour, asks Sturgeon about WhatsApp messages sent between senior party officials that Salmond has claimed point to a conspiracy. She asks if the first minister has asked to see them? | |
| Sturgeon says she has made some efforts and taken in context they are not untoward. She refers to four messages quoted by Salmond in his evidence on Friday. She says she looked at them. She begins trying to explain them taken in context but is cut short by the convenor who says the committee will see messages later and it would be inappropriate to form a view on them before that. | |
| When was the harassment policy signed off, asks Margaret Mitchell, Scottish Conservatives? | |
| Sturgeon says it was signed off on 20 December 2017. | |
| Mitchell says Salmond claims the policy was signed off later and the complaints were made before the policy was signed. | |
| Sturgeon says the complainants came forward initially in November 2017 but made their formal complaints in January 2018. She reiterates that the policy was signed off on 20 December 2017. | |
| Outside of the committee hearing: | Outside of the committee hearing: |
| Allan asks the first minister if she has a view as to why documents Salmond claims support his position have not been released. | Allan asks the first minister if she has a view as to why documents Salmond claims support his position have not been released. |
| Sturgeon answers that if you are going to put forward the idea there is a concerted, malicious campaign, “you need to evidence that”. If these documents support is view, someone in the police or court would have seen them, the first minister argues. She also claims material has been taken out of context and she has seen nothing that comes close to proving Salmond’s allegation of a conspiracy against him. | |
| Alasdair Allan, SNP, asks if anyone gave her an explanation about the possible press release about the allegations | Alasdair Allan, SNP, asks if anyone gave her an explanation about the possible press release about the allegations |
| Sturgeon again explains that it was because of a freedom of information request that would have disclosed some of the information in the said release. | Sturgeon again explains that it was because of a freedom of information request that would have disclosed some of the information in the said release. |
| Allan asks Sturgeon whether the Scottish government should have looked into mediation on the allegations and then arbitration of the dispute into the procedure. He has claimed Sturgeon agreed to intervene. | Allan asks Sturgeon whether the Scottish government should have looked into mediation on the allegations and then arbitration of the dispute into the procedure. He has claimed Sturgeon agreed to intervene. |
| The first minister says “these things were considered”. She said the issue is not whether these should have happened but whether she should have intervened to bring them about and it would have been wrong for her to do so. She adds she got the impression that mediation and arbitrations were “devices” to thwart the natural course of the investigation. | The first minister says “these things were considered”. She said the issue is not whether these should have happened but whether she should have intervened to bring them about and it would have been wrong for her to do so. She adds she got the impression that mediation and arbitrations were “devices” to thwart the natural course of the investigation. |
| Allan quotes Salmond claiming there was a fishing exercise against him in terms of contacting people about raising complaints. He asks the first minister about her knowledge of this. | Allan quotes Salmond claiming there was a fishing exercise against him in terms of contacting people about raising complaints. He asks the first minister about her knowledge of this. |
| Sturgeon responds by saying it was “a duty of care move”. It was not a fishing exercise but it was “perfectly appropriate”. It dismays her to hear claims that people were concocting allegations. Complainers may have supported each other but the idea of a plot is not based in fact or on any credible evidence, says Sturgeon. | Sturgeon responds by saying it was “a duty of care move”. It was not a fishing exercise but it was “perfectly appropriate”. It dismays her to hear claims that people were concocting allegations. Complainers may have supported each other but the idea of a plot is not based in fact or on any credible evidence, says Sturgeon. |
| Alex Cole-Hamilton, Scottish Lib Dems, asks Sturgeon when she first became aware that a civil servant had come forward with a complaint about Salmond? | Alex Cole-Hamilton, Scottish Lib Dems, asks Sturgeon when she first became aware that a civil servant had come forward with a complaint about Salmond? |
| The first minister said she had an awareness that there might be concerns but it wasn’t until 2 April when she saw the permanent secretary’s letter that they became concrete. She says ahead of 2 April she had awareness that there might be a complaint, “a general awareness”, but it was reading the letter that gave her the “knowledge” as opposed to the general awareness. After the 29 March meeting with Geoff Aberdein, Salmond’s former chief of staff, she had “a sense of unease”. She did not have knowledge of specific complaints but “a lingering suspicion” that there might be something. | The first minister said she had an awareness that there might be concerns but it wasn’t until 2 April when she saw the permanent secretary’s letter that they became concrete. She says ahead of 2 April she had awareness that there might be a complaint, “a general awareness”, but it was reading the letter that gave her the “knowledge” as opposed to the general awareness. After the 29 March meeting with Geoff Aberdein, Salmond’s former chief of staff, she had “a sense of unease”. She did not have knowledge of specific complaints but “a lingering suspicion” that there might be something. |
| Can you see why people might feel misled by her version of events? Cole-Hamilton says this has changed as more information became public, referring to interviews with Andrew Marr on the BBC and Sophy Ridge on Sky. | Can you see why people might feel misled by her version of events? Cole-Hamilton says this has changed as more information became public, referring to interviews with Andrew Marr on the BBC and Sophy Ridge on Sky. |
| Sturgeon says early on she was worried that there was an ongoing investigation and she did not want to generate headlines. She says she does understand why “people might see that” | Sturgeon says early on she was worried that there was an ongoing investigation and she did not want to generate headlines. She says she does understand why “people might see that” |
| Cole-Hamilton says breaching confidentiality is a sackable offence so are you surprised the senior government official denies telling Geoff Aberdein the name of one of the complainants? | Cole-Hamilton says breaching confidentiality is a sackable offence so are you surprised the senior government official denies telling Geoff Aberdein the name of one of the complainants? |
| Sturgeon says there is not much more she can say about the issue but claims Alex Salmond told her the name of one complainant and indicated he knew the identity of the other. | Sturgeon says there is not much more she can say about the issue but claims Alex Salmond told her the name of one complainant and indicated he knew the identity of the other. |
| You haven’t tried to contact Geoff Aberdein? | You haven’t tried to contact Geoff Aberdein? |
| Sturgeon says she is respecting the procedures of the committee, which include not contacting fellow witnesses. | Sturgeon says she is respecting the procedures of the committee, which include not contacting fellow witnesses. |
| Cole-Hamilton says he finds it curious that the day before the Daily Record story appeared the government had prepared a press release with details of the investigation. | Cole-Hamilton says he finds it curious that the day before the Daily Record story appeared the government had prepared a press release with details of the investigation. |
| Sturgeon answers that it was not her press release. She said she believes the press release was planned because there was a freedom of information request that would have led to the disclosure of some of that information. | Sturgeon answers that it was not her press release. She said she believes the press release was planned because there was a freedom of information request that would have led to the disclosure of some of that information. |
| Cole-Hamilton says the report was passed to the crown agent against the wishes of the police, was this the right thing to do? | Cole-Hamilton says the report was passed to the crown agent against the wishes of the police, was this the right thing to do? |
| Sturgeon says there were allegations of criminality involved. The Scottish government has a duty to, if it thinks criminal acts have been committed, to do something about that. She says she does not know how strong the objections were from the complainers. She adds that had she done the opposite, she would also have been criticised. | Sturgeon says there were allegations of criminality involved. The Scottish government has a duty to, if it thinks criminal acts have been committed, to do something about that. She says she does not know how strong the objections were from the complainers. She adds that had she done the opposite, she would also have been criticised. |
| Murdo Fraser, Scottish Conservatives, says the allegation by Salmond’s former chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein, that he was given the name of a complainant against Salmond by a senior government official has been corroborated by Salmond’s lawyer, Duncan Hamilton, and former party strategist, Kevin Pringle. Where is the corroboration of the senior government official’s denial of this? | Murdo Fraser, Scottish Conservatives, says the allegation by Salmond’s former chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein, that he was given the name of a complainant against Salmond by a senior government official has been corroborated by Salmond’s lawyer, Duncan Hamilton, and former party strategist, Kevin Pringle. Where is the corroboration of the senior government official’s denial of this? |
| Sturgeon says she can only go on what she has been told about this conversation. She reiterates that Salmond did not mention this at her meeting on 2 April 2018 and that Salmond knew the identity of the two complainants, because he apologised to one of them and identified the other by going through the Scottish government’s Flickr account. She reiterates that she was not a party to this conversation. | Sturgeon says she can only go on what she has been told about this conversation. She reiterates that Salmond did not mention this at her meeting on 2 April 2018 and that Salmond knew the identity of the two complainants, because he apologised to one of them and identified the other by going through the Scottish government’s Flickr account. She reiterates that she was not a party to this conversation. |
| Sturgeon adds that she can think of why the name of that complainant might have been known at that time but that does not mean it was revealed in the way that has been said. | Sturgeon adds that she can think of why the name of that complainant might have been known at that time but that does not mean it was revealed in the way that has been said. |
| Are the police investigating the disclosure of the name of the complainant? | Are the police investigating the disclosure of the name of the complainant? |
| Sturgeon says they are not. She is trying to respect the processes under way, namely this inquiry and the investigation into possible breaches of the ministerial code. Sturgeon adds that the police do not need her authority to investigate. | Sturgeon says they are not. She is trying to respect the processes under way, namely this inquiry and the investigation into possible breaches of the ministerial code. Sturgeon adds that the police do not need her authority to investigate. |
| There will now be a 20-minute break. | There will now be a 20-minute break. |
| Baillie asks when Sturgeon became aware of a leak to the Daily Record, which published two stories containing details of complainants. Where do you consider the leaks came from? | Baillie asks when Sturgeon became aware of a leak to the Daily Record, which published two stories containing details of complainants. Where do you consider the leaks came from? |
| “I don’t know,” Sturgeon says they did not come from her or anyone acting on her behalf. She says Salmond alleged some details must have come from the decision report but she was not sent the decision report. | “I don’t know,” Sturgeon says they did not come from her or anyone acting on her behalf. She says Salmond alleged some details must have come from the decision report but she was not sent the decision report. |
| Baillie says she has been told the Daily Record was given the allegations against Salmond to spike another story it was going to publish about Sturgeon. | Baillie says she has been told the Daily Record was given the allegations against Salmond to spike another story it was going to publish about Sturgeon. |
| The first minister rejects this, saying she has never heard this. She asks Baillie what the story about her was but Baillie says she doesn’t know. The timing would be an incredible coincidence, says Sturgeon. | The first minister rejects this, saying she has never heard this. She asks Baillie what the story about her was but Baillie says she doesn’t know. The timing would be an incredible coincidence, says Sturgeon. |
| Why was the leak not reported to the police? | Why was the leak not reported to the police? |
| The first minister agrees it was very serious. The government did not benefit in any way from this. She reiterates it did not come from her or anyone under her authority. Sturgeon says there was a review by the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO), which concluded it didn’t come from the government. Baillie disputes this characterisation of the ICO’s conclusions. Sturgeon doesn’t know why it wasn’t investigated by the police. | The first minister agrees it was very serious. The government did not benefit in any way from this. She reiterates it did not come from her or anyone under her authority. Sturgeon says there was a review by the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO), which concluded it didn’t come from the government. Baillie disputes this characterisation of the ICO’s conclusions. Sturgeon doesn’t know why it wasn’t investigated by the police. |
| Who had details and would have leaked them? | Who had details and would have leaked them? |
| Sturgeon says she does not know where the leak came from. Salmond and his lawyers had access to it, she does not know who in the Scottish government had access to it. Pressed by Baillie as to whether she will ask police to investigate, Sturgeon says she will consider it but the ICO looked into potential criminality. | Sturgeon says she does not know where the leak came from. Salmond and his lawyers had access to it, she does not know who in the Scottish government had access to it. Pressed by Baillie as to whether she will ask police to investigate, Sturgeon says she will consider it but the ICO looked into potential criminality. |
| Jackie Baillie, Scottish Labour, says at an early meeting, details of complaints and the identity of a complainant were revealed to Salmond’s former chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein, by a senior government official. Was this authorised by Sturgeon? | Jackie Baillie, Scottish Labour, says at an early meeting, details of complaints and the identity of a complainant were revealed to Salmond’s former chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein, by a senior government official. Was this authorised by Sturgeon? |
| Sturgeon says she is restrained by legal constraints but she understands the meeting did not happen as described. Sturgeon adds that she does not recall Salmond showing any knowledge of the identity of the complainants when she met him on 2 April 2018. | Sturgeon says she is restrained by legal constraints but she understands the meeting did not happen as described. Sturgeon adds that she does not recall Salmond showing any knowledge of the identity of the complainants when she met him on 2 April 2018. |
| She says Salmond would know the identity of the complainants because he had apologised to one of them and there had also been some investigation on his part into Scottish government social media accounts. | She says Salmond would know the identity of the complainants because he had apologised to one of them and there had also been some investigation on his part into Scottish government social media accounts. |
| She disputes that the name of a complainant was given. Pressed by Baillie whether she is accusing Aberdein and others who said they were present at that meeting of lying, Sturgeon says their version is not accepted by the senior government official involved. | She disputes that the name of a complainant was given. Pressed by Baillie whether she is accusing Aberdein and others who said they were present at that meeting of lying, Sturgeon says their version is not accepted by the senior government official involved. |
| Stuart McMillan, SNP, asks the first minister if she had any involvement in the formal complaints handling process? | Stuart McMillan, SNP, asks the first minister if she had any involvement in the formal complaints handling process? |
| No, replies Sturgeon. | No, replies Sturgeon. |
| McMillan asks if Sturgeon accepts things went wrong and what is being done to prevent things going wrong in future? | McMillan asks if Sturgeon accepts things went wrong and what is being done to prevent things going wrong in future? |
| Sturgeon answers that she has already apologised this morning for things having gone wrong and steps are being taken to ensure similar mistakes don’t happen again. | Sturgeon answers that she has already apologised this morning for things having gone wrong and steps are being taken to ensure similar mistakes don’t happen again. |
| Would the government consider an investigation officer being independent of government? | Would the government consider an investigation officer being independent of government? |
| Sturgeon says she would consider any changes. | Sturgeon says she would consider any changes. |
| Did you feel you had a broad base of support for putting in a new policy to tackle sexual harassment? | Did you feel you had a broad base of support for putting in a new policy to tackle sexual harassment? |
| The first minister says she had a discussion with Theresa May at the time, who had concerns about addressing the issue but she wouldn’t use this to claim the UK government endorsed what the Scottish government was doing. Sturgeon thinks there was general agreement among trade unions that putting in place a policy and applying it to former minister was not unreasonable. | The first minister says she had a discussion with Theresa May at the time, who had concerns about addressing the issue but she wouldn’t use this to claim the UK government endorsed what the Scottish government was doing. Sturgeon thinks there was general agreement among trade unions that putting in place a policy and applying it to former minister was not unreasonable. |