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Prosecutor Nazir Afzal: I couldn't defend a rapist | Prosecutor Nazir Afzal: I couldn't defend a rapist |
(32 minutes later) | |
The prosecutor of some of the UK's most notorious sex offenders has told of how he quit as a defence lawyer after not wanting to represent an alleged rapist. | The prosecutor of some of the UK's most notorious sex offenders has told of how he quit as a defence lawyer after not wanting to represent an alleged rapist. |
Nazir Afzal went on to become the chief crown prosecutor in the Rochdale grooming gang cases in 2012. | Nazir Afzal went on to become the chief crown prosecutor in the Rochdale grooming gang cases in 2012. |
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Desert Island Discs, he said he had never celebrated a successful case as "nobody should be harmed in the first place". | Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Desert Island Discs, he said he had never celebrated a successful case as "nobody should be harmed in the first place". |
He said those guilty were mostly men who wanted to restrict women's choices. | He said those guilty were mostly men who wanted to restrict women's choices. |
Mr Afzal started his career as a defence lawyer but told BBC presenter Lauren Laverne of the moment he realised he "just couldn't do it". | Mr Afzal started his career as a defence lawyer but told BBC presenter Lauren Laverne of the moment he realised he "just couldn't do it". |
He was advising a rape suspect before a police interview and had given his client a copy of the victim's statement. | He was advising a rape suspect before a police interview and had given his client a copy of the victim's statement. |
He could see the man was getting pleasure from "re-hearing and rehearsing what he had done allegedly to that woman", Mr Afzal explained. | He could see the man was getting pleasure from "re-hearing and rehearsing what he had done allegedly to that woman", Mr Afzal explained. |
"And his reaction to reading what she had said just was the icing on the cake in my mind. | "And his reaction to reading what she had said just was the icing on the cake in my mind. |
"I couldn't say to him 'plead guilty' because he wasn't going to. He was going to drag her through the courtroom... and that's his right absolutely, but why should I be party to that? I wasn't going to be party to that. | "I couldn't say to him 'plead guilty' because he wasn't going to. He was going to drag her through the courtroom... and that's his right absolutely, but why should I be party to that? I wasn't going to be party to that. |
"So I walked out the door, literally, and I handed my notice in almost immediately afterwards. I'm not doing this anymore. I can't do this. Good for people who can and we do need people who can do that, but it wasn't for me." | "So I walked out the door, literally, and I handed my notice in almost immediately afterwards. I'm not doing this anymore. I can't do this. Good for people who can and we do need people who can do that, but it wasn't for me." |
It's shameful that victims are suffering | It's shameful that victims are suffering |
Three Girls drama depicts 'painful time' | Three Girls drama depicts 'painful time' |
Grooming prosecutor faced death threats | Grooming prosecutor faced death threats |
Mr Afzal joined the Crown Prosecution Service in 1991 and went on to become director of prosecutions for London where he brought perpetrators of so-called honour-based violence to justice. | Mr Afzal joined the Crown Prosecution Service in 1991 and went on to become director of prosecutions for London where he brought perpetrators of so-called honour-based violence to justice. |
In 2011, as chief crown prosecutor for north-west England, he began investigating sex grooming gangs in Rochdale, overturning a previous CPS decision not to bring charges against suspects. | In 2011, as chief crown prosecutor for north-west England, he began investigating sex grooming gangs in Rochdale, overturning a previous CPS decision not to bring charges against suspects. |
He brought prosecutions against nine men who were convicted and jailed in 2012 for the sexual exploitation of 47 young girls. | He brought prosecutions against nine men who were convicted and jailed in 2012 for the sexual exploitation of 47 young girls. |
BBC drama The Three Girls was based on the Rochdale abuse scandal | BBC drama The Three Girls was based on the Rochdale abuse scandal |
Mr Afzal also prosecuted Stuart Hall, the former television presenter who in 2014 was convicted of multiple sex offences against children. | Mr Afzal also prosecuted Stuart Hall, the former television presenter who in 2014 was convicted of multiple sex offences against children. |
In a wide-ranging interview, he told Lauren Laverne there was "nobody more important in his life than the victims and survivors" that he kept in touch with. | In a wide-ranging interview, he told Lauren Laverne there was "nobody more important in his life than the victims and survivors" that he kept in touch with. |
He spoke of visiting one alleged victim of Hall whose case did not lead to a conviction. | |
"I went to see her and I said, 'I'm really sorry that I couldn't give you closure'. She looked me in the eyes and said, 'You gave me closure the moment that you believed me. My recovery started the moment you believed me.' | "I went to see her and I said, 'I'm really sorry that I couldn't give you closure'. She looked me in the eyes and said, 'You gave me closure the moment that you believed me. My recovery started the moment you believed me.' |
"That has never left me." | "That has never left me." |
Choosing the track Women in Chains by Tears For Fears, he said: "People can read whatever they want into it but for me it's the fact that women have been put in chains that we men - and it's men all the time sadly - that want to restrict the choices that women make." | Choosing the track Women in Chains by Tears For Fears, he said: "People can read whatever they want into it but for me it's the fact that women have been put in chains that we men - and it's men all the time sadly - that want to restrict the choices that women make." |
Nazir Afzal's Desert Island Disc choices | Nazir Afzal's Desert Island Disc choices |
Jump Around - House of Pain | Jump Around - House of Pain |
This Woman's Work - Kate Bush | This Woman's Work - Kate Bush |
Why Should I Cry For You? - Sting | Why Should I Cry For You? - Sting |
One In Ten - UB40 | One In Ten - UB40 |
Set You Free - N-Trance | Set You Free - N-Trance |
Woman in Chains - Tears For Fears | Woman in Chains - Tears For Fears |
One - U2 with Mary J Blige on vocals | One - U2 with Mary J Blige on vocals |
Talkin' Bout a Revolution - Tracy Chapman | Talkin' Bout a Revolution - Tracy Chapman |
Mr Afzal said his quest for justice was in part shaped by the racist bullying he experienced as the child of Pakistani parents growing up in Birmingham. | Mr Afzal said his quest for justice was in part shaped by the racist bullying he experienced as the child of Pakistani parents growing up in Birmingham. |
"I was beaten so often, on one occasion I was beaten by three guys who used my head as a football," he said. | "I was beaten so often, on one occasion I was beaten by three guys who used my head as a football," he said. |
But his father did not call the police, instead telling the then 13-year-old: "There's no justice. Nobody is prepared to listen to us." | But his father did not call the police, instead telling the then 13-year-old: "There's no justice. Nobody is prepared to listen to us." |
He said: "And so I was taken by what he wanted to do which was to provide a voice to those who were unheard, and in many respects that's how I built my career doing the same thing." | He said: "And so I was taken by what he wanted to do which was to provide a voice to those who were unheard, and in many respects that's how I built my career doing the same thing." |
Mr Afzal retired from the Crown Prosecution Service in 2015. He currently chairs the Catholic Church's new safeguarding body and advises the Welsh government on issues of gender-based violence. | |
He also told of how he cradled the body of his seven-year-old cousin Yasmin after she died of dehydration on a family trip back from Pakistan. | |
He said: "We are going on a ferry to get back to England and my mother hands me my cousin and puts her in my arms and says look after her, she's sleeping. | He said: "We are going on a ferry to get back to England and my mother hands me my cousin and puts her in my arms and says look after her, she's sleeping. |
"And I'm carrying her body without knowing that - across the channel and arriving in Dover until the authorities take her. | "And I'm carrying her body without knowing that - across the channel and arriving in Dover until the authorities take her. |
"I looked at her face, I stroked her hair. Lauren nobody is going to die on my watch again, that's how I felt and that's how I've always felt." | "I looked at her face, I stroked her hair. Lauren nobody is going to die on my watch again, that's how I felt and that's how I've always felt." |
Guests share the soundtrack of their lives on Desert Island Discs on BBC Radio 4 on Sundays at 11:00 BST and it is also available on BBC Sounds. |