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Tory leadership: Rishi Sunak criticises Covid lockdown response Experts had too much power over Covid lockdowns, says Rishi Sunak
(about 4 hours later)
Rishi Sunak has criticised the government's response to Covid - suggesting independent scientific advisers were given too much authority. Rishi Sunak set up the "Eat Out to Help Out" scheme to encourage people back into restaurants
Mr Sunak - chancellor in the pandemic - told the Spectator magazine there had not been enough discussion about the negative side effects of lockdowns. Rishi Sunak has said the government gave too much power to scientists during Covid lockdowns - and was not honest about the potential downsides.
He said the government had "empowered" official scientists and tried to "scare people" through advertising campaigns. The Tory leadership contender and former chancellor told the Spectator said ministers were banned from talking about the "trade-offs" involved.
But ex-No 10 aide Dominic Cummings said he was talking "dangerous rubbish". He also said it was "wrong to scare people" with posters showing Covid patients on ventilators.
Mr Cummings, who was a key Downing Street adviser during the first part of the pandemic, accused Mr Sunak of "unfairly" blaming Boris Johnson and others. Former No 10 aide Dominic Cummings said he was talking "dangerous rubbish".
"The Sunak interview is dangerous rubbish, reads like a man whose epicly bad campaign has melted his brain and he's about to quit politics," he added. Mr Cummings, a key Downing Street adviser during the first part of the pandemic, said the interview "reads like a man whose epicly bad campaign has melted his brain and he's about to quit politics".
Mr Sunak is battling Foreign Secretary Liz Truss to replace Mr Johnson as Conservative leader and prime minister in two weeks' time.
Sunak: I flew home to stop Christmas lockdownSunak: I flew home to stop Christmas lockdown
Covid infections in UK continue to fallCovid infections in UK continue to fall
What are the policies of final two hoping to be PM?What are the policies of final two hoping to be PM?
During the campaign, both candidates have sought to highlight areas where they disagreed with the government in which they served, with Ms Truss saying she was opposed to the rise in National Insurance. Scientists who advised the government during the pandemic have also hit back at Mr Sunak's comments, stressing that ministers were always responsible for decisions made.
As chancellor from February 2020 to July 2022, Mr Sunak played a key role in the government's response to coronavirus, including establishing the furlough scheme and the Eat Out to Help Out scheme. Mr Sunak attempted to laugh off Mr Cummings's jibe in an interview on BBC Radio 4's The World at One, insisting he was not about to leave politics and there was still "everything to play for" in the Tory leadership race.
Speaking to the Spectator, Mr Sunak insisted he did not want to blame individuals but said he believes a series of mistakes were made by ministers during the pandemic. He is trailing rival Liz Truss in polls of party members, in the battle to be the next prime minister, with the result set to be announced on 5 September.
He said ministers were not given enough information to scrutinise analysis produced by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies - a group of independent experts advising the government. As chancellor from February 2020 to July 2022, Mr Sunak established furlough and the Eat Out to Help Out scheme, and has previously questioned the extent of the restrictions imposed to curb the virus.
He told the magazine he had asked for summaries of the assumptions behind Sage's modelling for the first year of the pandemic, but could "never get" them. In his Spectator interview, he said the negative impacts of lockdowns on society were "never part" of internal discussions, adding meetings were "literally me around that table, just fighting".
Ministers were also told not to discuss the potential downsides in interviews, he added.
'Big silence'
"The script was not to ever acknowledge them. The script was: 'Oh there's no trade-off, because doing this for our health is good for the economy.'"
He insisted he had made an "emotional" plea to keep schools open, but was met with "a big silence" from his colleagues.
Asked if more frank discussions would have enabled Britain to avoid lockdowns, he said: "I don't know, but it could have been shorter. Different. Quicker."
Mr Sunak also said ministers were not given enough information to scrutinise analysis produced by official scientific advisers on the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE), and internal opposition to certain measures from advisers was not reflected in official minutes of meetings.
"This is the problem," he was quoted as saying, "if you empower all these independent people, you're screwed"."This is the problem," he was quoted as saying, "if you empower all these independent people, you're screwed".
Mr Sunak said more discussion about the "trade-offs" of lockdowns could have made them "shorter" and "different".
"The script was not to ever acknowledge them. The script was: 'Oh there's no trade-off, because doing this for our health is good for the economy'.
"Those meetings were literally me around that table, just fighting. It was incredibly uncomfortable every single time.
"I was like, 'forget about the economy - surely we can all agree that kids not being in school is a major nightmare.' There was a big silence afterwards. It was the first time someone had said it. I was so furious."
A bit late in the day?A bit late in the day?
This isn't the first time Rishi Sunak has expressed concerns about his own government's handling of the pandemic.This isn't the first time Rishi Sunak has expressed concerns about his own government's handling of the pandemic.
Early in the leadership campaign, he said he flew back from California when the Omicron variant was spreading rapidly in order to stop a Covid lockdown.Early in the leadership campaign, he said he flew back from California when the Omicron variant was spreading rapidly in order to stop a Covid lockdown.
But in his Spectator interview, he goes further in denouncing the whole approach of the government he served in - what he calls "the fear narrative".But in his Spectator interview, he goes further in denouncing the whole approach of the government he served in - what he calls "the fear narrative".
And the implication is that it was he and not his Tory leadership rival who was asking the difficult questions about the scientific advice.And the implication is that it was he and not his Tory leadership rival who was asking the difficult questions about the scientific advice.
Of course, Liz Truss at the time did not have a domestic portfolio and would not have attended many of the Covid meetings that were held between full cabinet gatherings.Of course, Liz Truss at the time did not have a domestic portfolio and would not have attended many of the Covid meetings that were held between full cabinet gatherings.
Mr Sunak's team insist this was not a planned intervention in the leadership contest - it was simply that the Spectator wanted to ask about lockdown.Mr Sunak's team insist this was not a planned intervention in the leadership contest - it was simply that the Spectator wanted to ask about lockdown.
The point he was making was not an attempt to rake over the past, they say.The point he was making was not an attempt to rake over the past, they say.
Instead, it was to emphasise he would do things differently in government - with more accountability and with ministers being given the information they need.Instead, it was to emphasise he would do things differently in government - with more accountability and with ministers being given the information they need.
It is likely, though, that the concerns he expressed in his interview - about school closures, an NHS backlog and the economic impact of the pandemic - will be shared by a significant segment of the Conservative membership.It is likely, though, that the concerns he expressed in his interview - about school closures, an NHS backlog and the economic impact of the pandemic - will be shared by a significant segment of the Conservative membership.
But with just 10 days to go, it may be rather late in the day for him to open a new front in the leadership battle.But with just 10 days to go, it may be rather late in the day for him to open a new front in the leadership battle.
A Downing Street spokesman said: "Throughout the pandemic, public health, education, and the economy were central to the difficult decisions made on Covid restrictions to protect the British public from an unprecedented novel virus. Prof Graham Medley, who chaired a SAGE sub-committee during the pandemic, said its meetings were "about the science, not the policy options," and the minutes reflected "scientific consensus at the time".
"At every point, ministers made collective decisions which considered a wide range of expert advice available at the time in order to protect public health." "If one member of cabinet thinks that scientific advice was too 'empowered' then it is a criticism of their colleagues rather than the scientists," he added.
A public inquiry into the government's handling of the pandemic has been set up, with public hearings to begin next year. Prof Ian Boyd, another member of SAGE in the pandemic, said scientific advisers "did not make decisions," and gave advice "based on the information available at the time".
A report from MPs last year said the UK should have acted sooner to stop Covid spreading early in the pandemic. He said its members were "acutely aware of the trade-offs" for different measures, and these were included in the advice "to the extent that it was possible with the information available at the time".
Mr Sunak and Ms Truss are due to take part in a hustings for Conservative Party members in Norwich on Thursday evening. Downing Street said education and the economy had been "central to the difficult decisions made on Covid restrictions," alongside public health.
A Whitehall source has told the BBC Mr Sunak's Treasury had "consistently opposed other measures to deal with Covid".
"They sought to cut testing at the earliest opportunity, opposed the purchase of antivirals and at the outset weren't behind the vaccine plan," the source added.