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Gorbachev defends controversial legacy | Gorbachev defends controversial legacy |
(about 8 hours later) | |
By Brian Hanrahan BBC News Mikhail Gorbachev, now 78, insists he brought many benefits to Russia | By Brian Hanrahan BBC News Mikhail Gorbachev, now 78, insists he brought many benefits to Russia |
Mikhail Gorbachev is remarkably serene about his record as the last leader of the Soviet Union. | Mikhail Gorbachev is remarkably serene about his record as the last leader of the Soviet Union. |
He says he expected a different outcome, but he would do it all over again. | He says he expected a different outcome, but he would do it all over again. |
It was Mr Gorbachev's policies that sparked the 1989 revolutions which swept away communism in Eastern Europe. | It was Mr Gorbachev's policies that sparked the 1989 revolutions which swept away communism in Eastern Europe. |
But Russia, too, went through a metamorphosis - and after the loss of the Soviet empire two years later, it was the Soviet Union itself that fell apart. | But Russia, too, went through a metamorphosis - and after the loss of the Soviet empire two years later, it was the Soviet Union itself that fell apart. |
The result is that for many Russians, Mr Gorbachev's years in the Kremlin remain bitterly contentious. | The result is that for many Russians, Mr Gorbachev's years in the Kremlin remain bitterly contentious. |
Greater freedom | Greater freedom |
Before this interview I was expecting to find a rather grumpy curmudgeon, worn down by the carping of his countrymen. | Before this interview I was expecting to find a rather grumpy curmudgeon, worn down by the carping of his countrymen. |
The fall of the Berlin Wall swiftly led to the reunification of Germany | The fall of the Berlin Wall swiftly led to the reunification of Germany |
Instead I meet a genial and relaxed 78-year-old, who sweeps into the room, without tie and without aides, and insists on shaking hands with everyone before settling down for the interview. | Instead I meet a genial and relaxed 78-year-old, who sweeps into the room, without tie and without aides, and insists on shaking hands with everyone before settling down for the interview. |
But once we start he defends his record robustly. | But once we start he defends his record robustly. |
He ticks off, in quick-fire sentences, the benefits he brought to Russia, which he says people are still enjoying today - more freedom and a reordering of Russia's relations with the world. | He ticks off, in quick-fire sentences, the benefits he brought to Russia, which he says people are still enjoying today - more freedom and a reordering of Russia's relations with the world. |
"I think that '89 was certainly change for the better - no doubt about it. We did not have the necessary freedom, particularly freedom of speech," he says. | "I think that '89 was certainly change for the better - no doubt about it. We did not have the necessary freedom, particularly freedom of speech," he says. |
"One of the most educated countries in the world had elections that - let's put it mildly - were not real elections, half-elections - because you had a choice of just the one candidate." | "One of the most educated countries in the world had elections that - let's put it mildly - were not real elections, half-elections - because you had a choice of just the one candidate." |
"A lot needed to be done at that time. We needed change." | "A lot needed to be done at that time. We needed change." |
The most spectacular change was the fall of the Berlin Wall, after which Germany drove full-speed towards reunification. | The most spectacular change was the fall of the Berlin Wall, after which Germany drove full-speed towards reunification. |
Mr Gorbachev was against it - and so, he learnt, were Mrs Thatcher and France's President Mitterrand. | Mr Gorbachev was against it - and so, he learnt, were Mrs Thatcher and France's President Mitterrand. |
But he discovered that the Western leaders were relying on him to block the process. | But he discovered that the Western leaders were relying on him to block the process. |
"They insisted unification should not go on, that the process should be stopped," he says. | "They insisted unification should not go on, that the process should be stopped," he says. |
Mr Gorbachev believes the West was relying on him to block the changes | Mr Gorbachev believes the West was relying on him to block the changes |
"I asked them if they had any suggestions. They had only one - that somebody else should pull their chestnuts out of the fire." | "I asked them if they had any suggestions. They had only one - that somebody else should pull their chestnuts out of the fire." |
He says they wanted him to say no and send troops, then adds: "That would be irresponsible. They were mistaken." | He says they wanted him to say no and send troops, then adds: "That would be irresponsible. They were mistaken." |
He repeats it for emphasis: "They were mistaken". | He repeats it for emphasis: "They were mistaken". |
He feels let down by Western leaders who he thinks took advantage of Russian weakness in the 1990s, and are to quick to criticise now when Russia asserts itself. | He feels let down by Western leaders who he thinks took advantage of Russian weakness in the 1990s, and are to quick to criticise now when Russia asserts itself. |
A 'non-person' | A 'non-person' |
The interview is taking place in the Gorbachev Foundation - a modern purpose-built block on the outskirts of Moscow. | The interview is taking place in the Gorbachev Foundation - a modern purpose-built block on the outskirts of Moscow. |
It is a bit like a US presidential library with archives from his time in office, a library for researchers and an exhibition of the awards and tributes to the man who effectively reshaped our world. | It is a bit like a US presidential library with archives from his time in office, a library for researchers and an exhibition of the awards and tributes to the man who effectively reshaped our world. |
Among them is the Nobel Peace Prize, awarded in 1990. | Among them is the Nobel Peace Prize, awarded in 1990. |
But despite the international acclaim, in Russian politics Mr Gorbachev is something of non-person. | But despite the international acclaim, in Russian politics Mr Gorbachev is something of non-person. |
And he picks his words carefully - praising Vladimir Putin personally, as the man who stabilised the country, but leaving no doubt he sees a lot wrong with the way the country is run. | And he picks his words carefully - praising Vladimir Putin personally, as the man who stabilised the country, but leaving no doubt he sees a lot wrong with the way the country is run. |
He dismisses United Russia, the dominant party which backs Mr Putin, as nothing more that a bad copy of the old Communist Party of the Soviet Union. And he believes what Russia needs now is more democracy. | |
"We need to transform our country; we need to modernise our country," he says. | "We need to transform our country; we need to modernise our country," he says. |
Mr Gorbachev warns against a possible return by Mr Putin to the presidency | Mr Gorbachev warns against a possible return by Mr Putin to the presidency |
"This cannot be done by pressure, by issuing commands and orders and administrative commands. It can only be done through democracy, by establishing a free and democratic environment with people's participation." | "This cannot be done by pressure, by issuing commands and orders and administrative commands. It can only be done through democracy, by establishing a free and democratic environment with people's participation." |
Its clear, though, that he thinks this is something for Russians to sort out, without lectures from the outside world. | Its clear, though, that he thinks this is something for Russians to sort out, without lectures from the outside world. |
So what if Mr Putin is a bit harsh sometimes - that, he says, is a matter of style. And so too is the current tandem leadership, split between the prime minister Mr Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev. | So what if Mr Putin is a bit harsh sometimes - that, he says, is a matter of style. And so too is the current tandem leadership, split between the prime minister Mr Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev. |
Voters' rights | Voters' rights |
What does provoke him are recent hints from Mr Putin that he may be contemplating a return to the presidency in 2012 which could see him running the country for another 12 years. | What does provoke him are recent hints from Mr Putin that he may be contemplating a return to the presidency in 2012 which could see him running the country for another 12 years. |
Mr Gorbachev remarks waspishly: "I didn't like the phrase 'I will sit down with the president and we will decide'." | Mr Gorbachev remarks waspishly: "I didn't like the phrase 'I will sit down with the president and we will decide'." |
"I think that it should be decided by the voters - by the people, and I didn't hear him mention the people. I don't think that this is right." | "I think that it should be decided by the voters - by the people, and I didn't hear him mention the people. I don't think that this is right." |
The one charge about his own time in power that Mr Gorbachev acknowledges is that he may have pushed change too quickly. | The one charge about his own time in power that Mr Gorbachev acknowledges is that he may have pushed change too quickly. |
Today he leaves the impression that it is not coming fast enough. | Today he leaves the impression that it is not coming fast enough. |
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