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| Is it OK for gay men to joke about lesbians? | Is it OK for gay men to joke about lesbians? |
| (30 minutes later) | |
| Comedian Graham Norton has been warned by the BBC after making a lesbian joke on his television show. But it's not uncommon for gay men to make jokes about their female counterparts. | Comedian Graham Norton has been warned by the BBC after making a lesbian joke on his television show. But it's not uncommon for gay men to make jokes about their female counterparts. |
| It started with a series of drawings of a woman in a jumpsuit. | It started with a series of drawings of a woman in a jumpsuit. |
| Gay women are not as 'visible' as gay men | Gay women are not as 'visible' as gay men |
| Norton was showing them to his guest Ruth Jones, co-writer of Gavin and Stacey, on The Graham Norton Show on BBC Two in March. | Norton was showing them to his guest Ruth Jones, co-writer of Gavin and Stacey, on The Graham Norton Show on BBC Two in March. |
| "I don't know why they've got some lesbian to be the model for this," he said. When challenged by Jones that she might not be a lesbian, Norton made a joke about her hair. | "I don't know why they've got some lesbian to be the model for this," he said. When challenged by Jones that she might not be a lesbian, Norton made a joke about her hair. |
| At the weekend, the BBC upheld a complaint and said Norton, an openly gay man, had "reinforced a potentially offensive stereotype". | At the weekend, the BBC upheld a complaint and said Norton, an openly gay man, had "reinforced a potentially offensive stereotype". |
| There are few subjects off-limits for risque comedians like Norton, and many would probably view the comment as light-hearted. | There are few subjects off-limits for risque comedians like Norton, and many would probably view the comment as light-hearted. |
| But Lucy Masoud, a journalist on Love Girls, which describes itself as a fun website for gay girls, says, in robust terms, that Norton's remarks reflect a wider stereotype perpetuated by some gay men. | But Lucy Masoud, a journalist on Love Girls, which describes itself as a fun website for gay girls, says, in robust terms, that Norton's remarks reflect a wider stereotype perpetuated by some gay men. |
| "On the gay scene, you do hear men - usually younger gay blokes or older queens - saying they can't stand lesbians, they are all this or that. They're butch, they're chicks with dicks, they're men with fannies. | "On the gay scene, you do hear men - usually younger gay blokes or older queens - saying they can't stand lesbians, they are all this or that. They're butch, they're chicks with dicks, they're men with fannies. |
| It's hugely damaging. All this in-fighting means we are not fighting together for things that are important Lucy MasoudLove Girls | It's hugely damaging. All this in-fighting means we are not fighting together for things that are important Lucy MasoudLove Girls |
| "But spend five minutes in Soho [an area in London popular among gay people] and you'll see that the stereotype of a typical lesbian is nonsense." | "But spend five minutes in Soho [an area in London popular among gay people] and you'll see that the stereotype of a typical lesbian is nonsense." |
| It's an inexcusable attitude but it's human nature to want to feel superior, she says. | It's an inexcusable attitude but it's human nature to want to feel superior, she says. |
| "If you're seen as being at the bottom of the pile, you want someone to be further below you. In theory, all minority groups should be fighting together. People experiencing racism should be fighting with gay people and disabled people for equality together." | "If you're seen as being at the bottom of the pile, you want someone to be further below you. In theory, all minority groups should be fighting together. People experiencing racism should be fighting with gay people and disabled people for equality together." |
| Within the gay community, there is some antipathy both ways, she says, because some lesbians joke about gay men as promiscuous. She has overheard lesbians who have walked into a gay bar and said 'Watch out you don't get AIDS'. | Within the gay community, there is some antipathy both ways, she says, because some lesbians joke about gay men as promiscuous. She has overheard lesbians who have walked into a gay bar and said 'Watch out you don't get AIDS'. |
| "How do you respond to something as ignorant as that? It's hugely damaging. All this in-fighting means we are not fighting together for things that are important. People are so apathetic now. | "How do you respond to something as ignorant as that? It's hugely damaging. All this in-fighting means we are not fighting together for things that are important. People are so apathetic now. |
| "We can walk down the street in Soho holding hands and that's good enough for us. We're gay but not political and the fight is finished." | "We can walk down the street in Soho holding hands and that's good enough for us. We're gay but not political and the fight is finished." |
| Different battles | Different battles |
| Nick Maxwell, who works at Age Concern developing services for older LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) groups, says the kind of comments gay women are sometimes subjected to from gay men include suggestions they're fat, ugly, they hate men and they wear dungarees. | Nick Maxwell, who works at Age Concern developing services for older LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) groups, says the kind of comments gay women are sometimes subjected to from gay men include suggestions they're fat, ugly, they hate men and they wear dungarees. |
| "It creates an animosity and it's self-perpetuating because the men have their groups, the women have their groups, and they don't understand each other's concerns. Homophobia is massively under-reported yet we have it within our own community. It's all totally unacceptable and needs to be challenged, wherever it comes from." | "It creates an animosity and it's self-perpetuating because the men have their groups, the women have their groups, and they don't understand each other's concerns. Homophobia is massively under-reported yet we have it within our own community. It's all totally unacceptable and needs to be challenged, wherever it comes from." |
| It's difficult to get women involved in LGBT projects, he says, because as women they may already have been treated as second-class citizens, then derisory comments from men, particularly from men within their own community, reinforce that sense of exclusion. | It's difficult to get women involved in LGBT projects, he says, because as women they may already have been treated as second-class citizens, then derisory comments from men, particularly from men within their own community, reinforce that sense of exclusion. |
| The animosity, says Mr Maxwell, could also come from a sense that gay men have fought different battles - like being criminalised by the law and dealing with HIV - that lesbians have not faced, although lesbians have long been at the forefront of the successful campaign to change the law. | The animosity, says Mr Maxwell, could also come from a sense that gay men have fought different battles - like being criminalised by the law and dealing with HIV - that lesbians have not faced, although lesbians have long been at the forefront of the successful campaign to change the law. |
| We're all working towards the same goals but because of the gender divide it can be easy for people to slip into an insular mindset Peter LloydGay Times | We're all working towards the same goals but because of the gender divide it can be easy for people to slip into an insular mindset Peter LloydGay Times |
| But should jokes be taken a little less seriously? | But should jokes be taken a little less seriously? |
| This kind of humour is sometimes expressed by gay men but it's not a serious problem, says Peter Lloyd, news editor of Gay Times, Pink Paper and Diva. He thinks it's partly to do with ownership. | This kind of humour is sometimes expressed by gay men but it's not a serious problem, says Peter Lloyd, news editor of Gay Times, Pink Paper and Diva. He thinks it's partly to do with ownership. |
| "When you have people that are part of a sub-group, there's a certain freedom of expression within that so it's much easier to make comedic references about other people within that community because it's much safer. | "When you have people that are part of a sub-group, there's a certain freedom of expression within that so it's much easier to make comedic references about other people within that community because it's much safer. |
| "So there's an element of this within the community but ultimately there's a shared level of understanding about our aims and objectives." | "So there's an element of this within the community but ultimately there's a shared level of understanding about our aims and objectives." |
| But it does have repercussions in perpetuating a lack of visibility of gay women in mainstream society and gay culture, he says. | But it does have repercussions in perpetuating a lack of visibility of gay women in mainstream society and gay culture, he says. |
| "It's surprising that there can be sometimes a sense of polarity within the community." | "It's surprising that there can be sometimes a sense of polarity within the community." |
| It's good that media regulators are on to this, he adds, but they should be consistent and apply the same rigour to other broadcasters like Jonathan Ross and Chris Moyles, whose humour in the past has prompted accusations of homophobia. | It's good that media regulators are on to this, he adds, but they should be consistent and apply the same rigour to other broadcasters like Jonathan Ross and Chris Moyles, whose humour in the past has prompted accusations of homophobia. |
| Add your comments on this story, using the form below. | Add your comments on this story, using the form below. |
| As a gay man who has worked to advance gay and lesbian rights, I can tell you that when gay men and lesbians get together in a project or a work environment they usually achieve great things! We certainly need to respect one another as there are enough homophobes around without bitching our brothers and sisters! Naughty Graham; slapped wrists you daft queen!(!);-)Mike, Birmingham | |
| Isn't "older queens" just as big a stereotype as anything Lucy Masoud is complaining about?Ian Nesbitt, Durham | |
| The BBC may edit your comments and not all emails will be published. Your comments may be published on any BBC media worldwide. Terms & Conditions | The BBC may edit your comments and not all emails will be published. Your comments may be published on any BBC media worldwide. Terms & Conditions |