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| Are students about to find their voice over fees? | Are students about to find their voice over fees? |
| (1 day later) | |
| The natural rebelliousness of youth may soon manifest itself in student protest, says Sarah Dunant in her A Point of View column. | The natural rebelliousness of youth may soon manifest itself in student protest, says Sarah Dunant in her A Point of View column. |
| I'm not sure how many of the thousands of new students who began lectures at university this week will have their dials tuned to my Radio 4 broadcast (if indeed, after freshers' week, they have the hand-eye coordination to find the radio at all). | I'm not sure how many of the thousands of new students who began lectures at university this week will have their dials tuned to my Radio 4 broadcast (if indeed, after freshers' week, they have the hand-eye coordination to find the radio at all). |
| But given the numbers, I would bet some parents certainly will; people who, like me, have come through the choppy waters of "the last family summer" and are now experiencing the empty nest with a mixture of pain and euphoria. | But given the numbers, I would bet some parents certainly will; people who, like me, have come through the choppy waters of "the last family summer" and are now experiencing the empty nest with a mixture of pain and euphoria. |
| With the possible exception of defusing landmines, parenting is surely one of the most nerve-wracking jobs one can do in life, since the crisis you've just weathered is never adequate preparation for the one you don't know you're about to hit. | With the possible exception of defusing landmines, parenting is surely one of the most nerve-wracking jobs one can do in life, since the crisis you've just weathered is never adequate preparation for the one you don't know you're about to hit. |
| Thus, having survived supermarket tantrums, an age of teenage grunting, and the endless neuroses of exams, you - like me - may still have been taken aback by the emergence of what can only be described as the 18-year-old caged Rottweiler, gnawing at the bars of home and taking lumps of flesh out of whoever tries to come too near them. | Thus, having survived supermarket tantrums, an age of teenage grunting, and the endless neuroses of exams, you - like me - may still have been taken aback by the emergence of what can only be described as the 18-year-old caged Rottweiler, gnawing at the bars of home and taking lumps of flesh out of whoever tries to come too near them. |
| My specialism is history and, in particular, the Renaissance period. | My specialism is history and, in particular, the Renaissance period. |
| I will be looking at contemporary moments through a lens of history, culturally, politically and economically - but hopefully with a wry smile on my face. | I will be looking at contemporary moments through a lens of history, culturally, politically and economically - but hopefully with a wry smile on my face. |
| A lot of people out there tell you what you should think but I was never convinced by the wagging finger. | A lot of people out there tell you what you should think but I was never convinced by the wagging finger. |
| If you make people "come out to play", think more and respond, then you have a conversation. | If you make people "come out to play", think more and respond, then you have a conversation. |
| My topics will include the vilification of the baby-boomers and how society has handled huge wealth and poverty. | My topics will include the vilification of the baby-boomers and how society has handled huge wealth and poverty. |
| The best thing about the web is that you have to be up for conversation, so I look forward to reader's comments with a mixture of excitement and trepidation. | The best thing about the web is that you have to be up for conversation, so I look forward to reader's comments with a mixture of excitement and trepidation. |
| It's nobody's fault. Be they fresh out of school or grudgingly back home after the dramas of a gap year, they have all been stir crazy to get out and start real living. In this respect, 18 is probably the most difficult age of all. Because while they are now technically adults, in reality they (as we did before them) still have an awful lot of growing up to do. | It's nobody's fault. Be they fresh out of school or grudgingly back home after the dramas of a gap year, they have all been stir crazy to get out and start real living. In this respect, 18 is probably the most difficult age of all. Because while they are now technically adults, in reality they (as we did before them) still have an awful lot of growing up to do. |
| In the past, of course, children took on the overt mantle of adulthood much younger: Boys through work, or war; girls through work, or marriage and children. In societies that valued education - at least for the rich, say the heyday of the renaissance - schooling took place earlier. By their mid-teens even girls with an education were ready for marriage, while boys were at university; come 19 or 20 they were out in the world. | In the past, of course, children took on the overt mantle of adulthood much younger: Boys through work, or war; girls through work, or marriage and children. In societies that valued education - at least for the rich, say the heyday of the renaissance - schooling took place earlier. By their mid-teens even girls with an education were ready for marriage, while boys were at university; come 19 or 20 they were out in the world. |
| While young blood could and did make history, in many of those societies boys were still seen as too immature to take on the full responsibilities of citizenship until well into their 20s. In Venice, for instance, boys born into the oligarchic web of ruling families were not allowed a vote until they were 25. | While young blood could and did make history, in many of those societies boys were still seen as too immature to take on the full responsibilities of citizenship until well into their 20s. In Venice, for instance, boys born into the oligarchic web of ruling families were not allowed a vote until they were 25. |
| There was even a change of uniform to mark the rite of passage. | There was even a change of uniform to mark the rite of passage. |
| Spend any time looking at Venetian paintings of the period and you'll notice flocks of cocky young men strutting their stuff in brightly coloured hose (each leg a different colour). Come their 25th birthday and this peacock fashion would be swapped for the sober black robes of the Venetian senator. It was time to stop playing and become players, even if that meant only deciding which faction to sell your vote to. | Spend any time looking at Venetian paintings of the period and you'll notice flocks of cocky young men strutting their stuff in brightly coloured hose (each leg a different colour). Come their 25th birthday and this peacock fashion would be swapped for the sober black robes of the Venetian senator. It was time to stop playing and become players, even if that meant only deciding which faction to sell your vote to. |
| Across the Italian peninsula, Florence pitched the bar even higher. Most wealthy male Florentines were not deemed ready for marriage till their late 20s or early 30s. When they did tie the knot it would be with women 10 or 15 years their junior, sequestered in convents or family homes to secure their virginity. Needless to say such purity was not demanded of the boys. The very opposite in fact. | Across the Italian peninsula, Florence pitched the bar even higher. Most wealthy male Florentines were not deemed ready for marriage till their late 20s or early 30s. When they did tie the knot it would be with women 10 or 15 years their junior, sequestered in convents or family homes to secure their virginity. Needless to say such purity was not demanded of the boys. The very opposite in fact. |
| Hot-blooded | Hot-blooded |
| The result? Some 20 years of testosterone on the streets. Sex 'n' drugs and rock 'n' roll may have been coined by the baby-boomers but knocking back the booze and getting your rocks off has been a time honoured rite of passage for all young men with time and money. History, however you clothe it, is often just biology in action. | The result? Some 20 years of testosterone on the streets. Sex 'n' drugs and rock 'n' roll may have been coined by the baby-boomers but knocking back the booze and getting your rocks off has been a time honoured rite of passage for all young men with time and money. History, however you clothe it, is often just biology in action. |
| Take the streets of Verona. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, like many of his plays, originates from a much earlier Italian source, but many elements remain constant. The first folio doesn't give actual ages for the protagonists but most of the young men gripped by the tribal violence of family would have been in their late teens or 20s: Rash, bellicose, hot-blooded, with time and no responsibilities, theirs was a license to cause trouble. | Take the streets of Verona. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, like many of his plays, originates from a much earlier Italian source, but many elements remain constant. The first folio doesn't give actual ages for the protagonists but most of the young men gripped by the tribal violence of family would have been in their late teens or 20s: Rash, bellicose, hot-blooded, with time and no responsibilities, theirs was a license to cause trouble. |
| Juliet, younger - though in some ways emotionally more mature - is still highly volatile. A stroppy teenager in other words. Though, interestingly, there is no word for teenager at this point in history, they did have a term for the trouble it caused in girls. | Juliet, younger - though in some ways emotionally more mature - is still highly volatile. A stroppy teenager in other words. Though, interestingly, there is no word for teenager at this point in history, they did have a term for the trouble it caused in girls. |
| "Out, you green-sickness carrion! Out, you baggage! You tallow-face," yells her father when she defies him over her marriage to Paris. Greensickness was a recognised malady; a disease to explain the arrival of rebellion in what up until then had been sweet, subservient little girls. The cure? Either lock 'em up and beat and starve it out of them or marry them off and tap the rising sap of sexuality that way. They would recover soon enough. | "Out, you green-sickness carrion! Out, you baggage! You tallow-face," yells her father when she defies him over her marriage to Paris. Greensickness was a recognised malady; a disease to explain the arrival of rebellion in what up until then had been sweet, subservient little girls. The cure? Either lock 'em up and beat and starve it out of them or marry them off and tap the rising sap of sexuality that way. They would recover soon enough. |
| By 18, while the young men were still out playing, those same young women would have had one, two, even three children, if they hadn't died in childbirth along the way. | By 18, while the young men were still out playing, those same young women would have had one, two, even three children, if they hadn't died in childbirth along the way. |
| So, thank heavens in all manner of ways for western modernity, not least in the equality of life and education. | So, thank heavens in all manner of ways for western modernity, not least in the equality of life and education. |
| Decades of debt | Decades of debt |
| Nevertheless, as I kissed goodbye to my 18-year-old daughter (and though she hugged me tight it was clear to both of us that she couldn't wait to get away), I did find myself wondering how the next three years were actually going to help her grow up. How far they were going to feed or frustrate her. It is a worry that has nothing to do with her gender. | Nevertheless, as I kissed goodbye to my 18-year-old daughter (and though she hugged me tight it was clear to both of us that she couldn't wait to get away), I did find myself wondering how the next three years were actually going to help her grow up. How far they were going to feed or frustrate her. It is a worry that has nothing to do with her gender. |
| Since history is, at root, simply a long-term accumulation of change, we are of course living through it all the time. And the recent changes in higher education, alongside the drastic cuts that are about to come, mean that university is going to be a very different experience for my daughter and her peers. | Since history is, at root, simply a long-term accumulation of change, we are of course living through it all the time. And the recent changes in higher education, alongside the drastic cuts that are about to come, mean that university is going to be a very different experience for my daughter and her peers. |
| First there is money. After years of tuition fees, students now hitting a post-crisis job market are shouldering a debt that many of them will take decades to shift. While the idea of fees was always going to be a shock for a country where higher education had been free, when the economy was booming and the dominant culture was "buy on credit, pay back with crippling interest sometime, but never now", saddling students with debt in some way just got them onto the ladder earlier. Owing money was almost a badge of modern citizenship. | First there is money. After years of tuition fees, students now hitting a post-crisis job market are shouldering a debt that many of them will take decades to shift. While the idea of fees was always going to be a shock for a country where higher education had been free, when the economy was booming and the dominant culture was "buy on credit, pay back with crippling interest sometime, but never now", saddling students with debt in some way just got them onto the ladder earlier. Owing money was almost a badge of modern citizenship. |
| If anything good has come out of this economic debacle, it's surely that our belief that debt is a way of life has been severely challenged, so that we now see it for what it is - selling a future in order to buy a present. Not only do current students face long and very uncertain futures but their present does not look too rosy either. With universities about to be hit by what many predict will be an unprecedented 25% of cuts, no-one - certainly not those imposing them - has a clue what the impact will be. | If anything good has come out of this economic debacle, it's surely that our belief that debt is a way of life has been severely challenged, so that we now see it for what it is - selling a future in order to buy a present. Not only do current students face long and very uncertain futures but their present does not look too rosy either. With universities about to be hit by what many predict will be an unprecedented 25% of cuts, no-one - certainly not those imposing them - has a clue what the impact will be. |
| Add that to the Browne enquiry, which is expected to recommend that tuition fees be allowed to rise to up to £10,000 a year and higher education is beginning to look more like a liability than a privilege. | Add that to the Browne enquiry, which is expected to recommend that tuition fees be allowed to rise to up to £10,000 a year and higher education is beginning to look more like a liability than a privilege. |
| Stroppy | Stroppy |
| How students will react to all of this is yet to be seen. Maybe they'll be docile, put their heads down and accept it. But maybe not. After all, if there is one thing that the introduction of fees has done, it is to redefine higher education as a commodity rather than a right. In the language of the Thatcher revolution, students have become customers. And these days when they don't get value for money, customers - rather like teenagers - can get quite stroppy. | How students will react to all of this is yet to be seen. Maybe they'll be docile, put their heads down and accept it. But maybe not. After all, if there is one thing that the introduction of fees has done, it is to redefine higher education as a commodity rather than a right. In the language of the Thatcher revolution, students have become customers. And these days when they don't get value for money, customers - rather like teenagers - can get quite stroppy. |
| How ironic, then, it would be if this first generation of "academic consumers" really did sink their teeth into the hand that was no longer properly feeding them. | How ironic, then, it would be if this first generation of "academic consumers" really did sink their teeth into the hand that was no longer properly feeding them. |
| The last noticeable period of student unrest was in the 60s when only 13% of young people went into higher education. Now, with getting on for half of 18 to 22-year-olds at university, it could be a seismic political moment. Ironic also because today's politicians have spent so much time hand-wringing over the political apathy of youth. But this may be the moment when that changes. | The last noticeable period of student unrest was in the 60s when only 13% of young people went into higher education. Now, with getting on for half of 18 to 22-year-olds at university, it could be a seismic political moment. Ironic also because today's politicians have spent so much time hand-wringing over the political apathy of youth. But this may be the moment when that changes. |
| If when the going gets tough, the tough can no longer go shopping, maybe they'll get out on the streets instead. While we will no doubt worry about what they will not be learning in class, maybe something else will be learned about life: That some things are worth fighting for. And the quality of higher education and its rightful place in a modern democracy is surely one of them. | If when the going gets tough, the tough can no longer go shopping, maybe they'll get out on the streets instead. While we will no doubt worry about what they will not be learning in class, maybe something else will be learned about life: That some things are worth fighting for. And the quality of higher education and its rightful place in a modern democracy is surely one of them. |
| All this, of course, is still in the future. For now, those of us with empty nests must swallow our tears and celebrate getting the bathroom back, or walking into a kitchen which doesn't resemble the aftermath of a three-day rock festival. | All this, of course, is still in the future. For now, those of us with empty nests must swallow our tears and celebrate getting the bathroom back, or walking into a kitchen which doesn't resemble the aftermath of a three-day rock festival. |
| In fact, maybe this whole vision of student protest is simply my own perverse form of wish-fulfilment. Because if they're not occupying the provost lodge, or wherever the centre of power is these days, it's less than three months until they come home again for Christmas. | In fact, maybe this whole vision of student protest is simply my own perverse form of wish-fulfilment. Because if they're not occupying the provost lodge, or wherever the centre of power is these days, it's less than three months until they come home again for Christmas. |
| Below is a selection of your comments | |
| While I believe that education is a right and not a privilege, the fact remains that too many people have a degree these days (and not always in useful subjects), thus devaluing the degree and the holders no longer having the edge in the job market. If high tuition fees mean less people go to university, then there will be less people with degrees and hopefully meaning will be given back to them. If businesses want people with degrees, then surely they could run a sponsorship scheme, whereby people from all walks of life could apply and prove that they have the ability and determination to study for a degree. | |
| C, Kent | |
| It is my opinion that the one barrier to a student revolt is the very thing that would cause them to revolt in the first place - money. It is notable that student activism has declined as the necessity for students to work as they study has increased. I know that throughout my time as a student I had to work during term time as well as during my holidays. When factored into the amount of time needed to actually ensure that I got a decent degree at the end of my time, it didn't leave much time for marches (though I went on a fair few of those as well). Sometimes the realities of life get in the way of things. It's not always down to 'apathy'. | |
| Sue, Bedfordshire | |
| Im 21 and starting University again after getting married and havng a child. With everything in my life I wouldnt be able to go to Uni if the fees increased. I do not have well off parents to back me up when the going gets tough. Alot of my friends who have finished Uni have left with £36,000 worth of debt. What more can this country ask for from us students, its hard enough trying to settle down and create a good life for yourself when you have all the stress about money hanging over you! There are so many amzing figures in our great nations history that have fought for the right for everyone to have a good eduction, hopfully this goverment wont destroy that! | |
| Sarah, Preston | |
| I am 41 and am in the second year of my Politics degree at Sheffield. I come from an underpriviledged background. and this coupled with illness meant I did not achieve at school, despite having an IQ which puts me among the most intelligent in this country. My life changed when I went to college and my tutors recognised my abilities. I would never have believed that in a couple of years I could be where I am now. My life, and hopes for it, are changing immeasurably. If the fees were as high as they are proposing, I would never have gone. Presumably, to end up on benefits as I have never been able to earn much. How dare this strata of our society, who largely had their education paid for by the people they appear to despise, pull up the drawbridge behind them! Our politicians need to think very carefully before we follow America's lead. By raising fees, you remove hope for many. This could just be the straw on the camels back. | |
| Tamsine Lee, Sheffield | |
| Hasn't anyone commented yet that the people imposing these high tuition fees, student loans etc got their degrees free of charge when you got a student grant? I think that people who got their degree free of charge should now have to pay retrospectively if they have subsequently got a good job. One of my sons has recently gained a first class honours degree and is employed handing out leaflets. No career guidance from his university, very few lectures .. not in my humble opinion very good value for money! Dumbed down degrees for hiked up prices. It is a disgrace! | |
| Gill, Halifax | |
| The worst customer service I ever received was at university, where students were treated as hideous inconveniences to be barely tolerated and I paid through the nose for this behaviour. I agree with Sarah Dunant, if you're going to end up paying a fortune for your education, students really should start standing up, and demanding better service and better facilities from their universities, ph, and refusing to be looked down on like barely coherant pond scum. | |
| Rebecca walford, Bristol | |
| Why must all articles about students portray them as young, and only complaining because of supposed hormonal changes or youthful rebellion? Or relegate their complaints as secondary to a mother's wistfulness? The tuition fee debate is about whether this country invests in talent, or prices people out of reaching their potential. Journalists need to stop looking at student issues through the prism of their own kids, and study it on its own terms for once. Then, the debate might be less mawkish and offensive to those who are directly affected by it. | |
| Andrew, London | |
| The article's claim that debt is "selling the future to buy the present" is incredibly naive. Debt can be this way - but often debt is used for investment for a better future, sacrificing today in the form of repayments for a longer term payoff. Parents, politicians and teachers need to realise this and articulate it to the young. Incurring debt in order to study for a good qualification is no different to a business borrowing to purchase new equipment or expand. Run your personal finances in a more business-like manner and you'll be rewarded. We should not expect the taxpayer to invest in us as students. If you do not think the long term payoff of your degree is worth more than the cost, then I suggest you change your plans. | |
| David, Kent |