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England riots: Police hit out at 'supercop' Bill Bratton plan England riots: Police hit out at 'supercop' Bill Bratton plan
(about 2 hours later)
  
UK police chiefs have reacted sceptically to plans for US "supercop" Bill Bratton to advise the government.UK police chiefs have reacted sceptically to plans for US "supercop" Bill Bratton to advise the government.
David Cameron has called for the former New York police chief to help address violence in English cities.David Cameron has called for the former New York police chief to help address violence in English cities.
Association of Chief Police Officers' head Sir Hugh Orde said: "I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them."Association of Chief Police Officers' head Sir Hugh Orde said: "I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them."
There have been no reports of unrest this weekend, as extra police numbers have been maintained on city streets.There have been no reports of unrest this weekend, as extra police numbers have been maintained on city streets.
Speaking to the Independent on Sunday, Sir Hugh, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said: "It seems to me, if you've got 400 gangs, then you're not being very effective.Speaking to the Independent on Sunday, Sir Hugh, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said: "It seems to me, if you've got 400 gangs, then you're not being very effective.
"If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are fundamentally different from here."If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are fundamentally different from here.
"What I suggested to the home secretary is a more sensible approach, maybe to look across far wider styles of policing and - more usefully - at European styles; they, like us, are bound by the European Convention."What I suggested to the home secretary is a more sensible approach, maybe to look across far wider styles of policing and - more usefully - at European styles; they, like us, are bound by the European Convention.
"My sense is, when we've done that, we will find the British model is probably the top.""My sense is, when we've done that, we will find the British model is probably the top."
Tactics dispute Home Secretary Theresa May said Mr Bratton was to be consulted as part of a process of learning from people around the world who had experience of tackling gang culture.
"I'm going to be listening to people internationally - yes, from America, but from other parts of the world where they've been dealing with gangs - and also let's recognise the good work that's been done in the UK," Mrs May said.
'Inconsistency of guidance'
There has been friction between ministers and senior police in the aftermath of last week's nights of rioting.
Mr Cameron has suggested police were too timid, and with too few officers on the ground, in their early efforts to tackle the riots.
Senior officers rejected that claim, and have also clashed with government over whether police or ministers planned the surge in officer numbers on Tuesday that put an end to widespread violence in the capital.
Acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner Tim Godwin accused Parliament of offering "inconsistency of guidance" related to tackling public disorder.Acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner Tim Godwin accused Parliament of offering "inconsistency of guidance" related to tackling public disorder.
"We sometimes are accused of excessive force and then we're accused of not being forceful enough," Mr Godwin said."We sometimes are accused of excessive force and then we're accused of not being forceful enough," Mr Godwin said.
Mr Cameron has suggested police were too timid, and with not enough numbers, in their early efforts tackling the riots. Since order was restored to the streets, there has also been a growing debate about anticipated reductions in police numbers as part of budget cuts.
Senior officers rejected that claim, and have also clashed with government over whether police or ministers planned the surge in officer numbers on Tuesday that put an end to widespread violence in the capital. Mr Godwin warned that policing of any future similar disturbances would be made even harder.
Mr Godwin warned that anticipated cuts to officer numbers would make policing any future similar disturbances even harder. Labour's shadow policing minister Vernon Coaker said: "Tactics could only change when they had enough police, and the surge of numbers that we saw - that have brought the streets back under control in London as quickly as possible - could only take place once those numbers of police had been mobilised."
He predicted that some 3,000 people or more could be brought before the courts in relation to the violence in London. He added: "I think it proves that numbers of police count."
"That's yet to be worked through but we have lots and lots of images, we have lots and lots of CCTV and there were lots of people involved," he said. Chancellor George Osborne has dismissed calls to reverse cuts to police budgets in the wake of last week's violence.
Mrs May said: "It is possible to make cuts in police budgets without affecting their ability to do the job the public want them to do and ensuring the police can still provide front-line services."
Forces would have to move officers "out from their desks and out there on the streets", she said.
Before the courts
But Conservative London mayor Boris Johnson said there was "going to have to be an argument about money".
"The case I make to the government, and I'm going to continue to make, is that numbers matter," he told Sky News.
"What Londoners want to see now is loads of police out there on the streets - that's what's been successful over the last few days. That's the policy people want us to keep up with."
In other developments related to last week's trouble in London, the East and West Midlands, Manchester, Liverpool and Gloucester:In other developments related to last week's trouble in London, the East and West Midlands, Manchester, Liverpool and Gloucester:
Mr Godwin predicted that a total of about 3,000 people could eventually be brought before the courts in relation to the violence in London.
"That's yet to be worked through but we have lots and lots of images, we have lots and lots of CCTV and there were lots of people involved," he said.
Further sanctions
Writing in the Observer, Liberal Democrat deputy leader Simon Hughes warned against "knee-jerk solutions" in the wake of last week's riots.Writing in the Observer, Liberal Democrat deputy leader Simon Hughes warned against "knee-jerk solutions" in the wake of last week's riots.
As many Conservatives back plans to cut benefits and evict families of rioters from their homes, Mr Hughes warned such moves could "have the reverse effect to that intended".As many Conservatives back plans to cut benefits and evict families of rioters from their homes, Mr Hughes warned such moves could "have the reverse effect to that intended".
The Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Nigel McCulloch, has called for a return to moral values where respect for others is placed above possessions.The Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Nigel McCulloch, has called for a return to moral values where respect for others is placed above possessions.
In a sermon for BBC Radio 4's Sunday Worship programme, Bishop McCulloch condemned "a me-first, ultra-consumerist culture, in which the quest for possession of things overrides a caring concern for others, and the key commandments become don't get caught and don't grass".In a sermon for BBC Radio 4's Sunday Worship programme, Bishop McCulloch condemned "a me-first, ultra-consumerist culture, in which the quest for possession of things overrides a caring concern for others, and the key commandments become don't get caught and don't grass".
"This week we've had an unpleasant glimpse of the default position to which society inevitably returns when its moral imperatives are forgotten," he said."This week we've had an unpleasant glimpse of the default position to which society inevitably returns when its moral imperatives are forgotten," he said.
'Different style'
Other senior police figures have also spoken out, saying they share Sir Hugh's concerns about the role of Mr Bratton.
Ian Hanson, of the Greater Manchester Police Federation, called it a "slap in the face" and said Britain did not need someone from "5,000 miles away".
"There is anger, there is disappointment, a degree of incredulity as well," he told ITV News.
Metropolitan Police Federation chairman John Tully agreed, saying he did not think American advice would help.
"Although he has a glittering record across in the States, it's a different style of policing. The gang culture's different," he said.
And former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor said: "The Americans didn't cure the social problems in New York. What they did is they locked people up. That's how zero tolerance works. We haven't got the heart for that over here."
In a statement, Downing Street added that Mr Bratton had long-standing links with British policing and they thanked him for agreeing "to make himself available for a series of meetings in the UK in the autumn to share his experience of tackling gangs".
Tough tactics
On a visit to Manchester on Saturday, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg played down any dispute between the government and the police.On a visit to Manchester on Saturday, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg played down any dispute between the government and the police.
"There is no rift... we fully support the police 100%," he said."There is no rift... we fully support the police 100%," he said.
"They have done a brilliant job in really difficult circumstances. The police themselves have said they want to review what happened and look at tactics and learn lessons.""They have done a brilliant job in really difficult circumstances. The police themselves have said they want to review what happened and look at tactics and learn lessons."
Earlier, Chancellor George Osborne dismissed calls to reverse cuts to police budgets. In a statement, Downing Street said Mr Bratton had long-standing links with British policing and they thanked him for agreeing "to make himself available for a series of meetings in the UK in the autumn to share his experience of tackling gangs".
He welcomed the advice from Mr Bratton, saying he would help tackle the "deep-seated social problems" behind the riots.
Mr Bratton - credited with restoring law and order in Los Angeles after riots in 1992 - said: "You can't arrest your way out of the problem.Mr Bratton - credited with restoring law and order in Los Angeles after riots in 1992 - said: "You can't arrest your way out of the problem.
"Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue.""Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue."