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| Welfare reform bill - benefit cap Commons live debate | Welfare reform bill - benefit cap Commons live debate |
| (40 minutes later) | |
| 12.15pm: Some excellent comments coming in below the line. My colleague Laura Oliver asked for your thoughts on the government's proposed concessions. | |
| Wishface responds: | |
| • Families affected by the £26,000 welfare cap will be given at least nine months "grace period" to adapt to the loss of benefits, by fiinding a job or moving house. | |
| Because of course they aren't already looking for work, whilst managing families and the needs therein of children. | |
| • A discretionary fund will be established for local authorities to use in "difficult cases" - such ensuring a family is not forced to move when a child is at a critical stage in its schooling. | |
| Surely all stages are important? | |
| Who will fund this movement? Where will they go? To the magic land of social housing? | |
| • The lowest income single parents seeking support from the Child Support Agency will not be charged a fee (the current plan proposes a £50 fee for parents on out of work benefits) | |
| Why not charge no-one a fee. All this does is further the divide. | |
| Meanwhile Hunterkiller is bemused by David Cameron's comments in the Sun this morning in which he conjures up the image of workshy benefit scroungers lying in bed every morning with their curtains closed. | |
| Every time they trot out that line about people laying in bed with their curtains shut, I can't help but think of my street. My street where everybody leaves their curtains and blinds shut, especially when they're at work, because they don't want people looking in and deciding their homes are an easy mark for burglary. Of course, Cameron does not have this problem because he always has a police officer outside his home. I expect the concept of keeping your curtains shut for security and privacy has never once entered his head. | |
| 12.01pm: The government's proposals to reduce housing benefit payments for social tenants deemed to be "under-occupying" their property - the so-called "spare room tax" - will have devasting effects on local communities, according to new research by the UK's four largest housing associations. | |
| The policy, which will affect 670,000 people when it is introduced in April 2013, is being considered today as the welfare reform bill returns to the Commons. It intended to cut the housing benefit bill and free up scarce social housing for families currently in overcrowded or temporary accommodation. | |
| But the research warns that working age tenants who fall foul of the government's "bedroom standard" - meaning they have more rooms than they need, would lose an average £14 a week under the proposal. Many will be forced to move as a result, and where they don't, critics say it is a recipe for overcrowding. | |
| The Lords passed an amendment watering down the impact of the "underoccupation" rule back in December - the first of the seven defeats suffered by the government on the bill. | |
| The government says it will overturn the amendment today. But according to the housing associations - who are grouped under the Housing Futures Network (HFN) banner - say it is poorly targeted and may trigger a series of adverse unintended consequences. | |
| Here are the main HFN findings : | |
| • The reductions will have a significant impact on household incomes, affecting some of the poorest in the country. For single people on Job Seekers' Allowance this reduction – of around £14 per week - would represent nearly 30% of disposable income, after allowing for other household bills. | |
| • The cuts will have a significant impact on tenant behaviour. Contrary to Government expectations, up to a third of affected tenants may seek to move. However in most areas, social landlords have a very limited supply of one bedroom properties, and in some neighbourhoods, it would take between six and eight years to accommodate those looking to downsize. A more likely move is into the private rented sector, where rents and benefit levels are higher – which could cost the Government more. | |
| • Those who can't move or want to stay put will be in danger of running up rent arrears. Over four in ten households affected could end up in arrears. At the neighbourhood level this will have a very significant impact on local management budgets, prejudicing the delivery of important services. Scaled up to national level social housing providers could face an annual loss of income of £171 million – the equivalent of the grant required to build over 8,000 new affordable homes each year. | |
According to HFN spokesman Hugh Owen: | |
| The research shows the devastating impact this proposal is likely to have on local communities and economies. The policy is poorly targeted, meaning that the wrong people could move. Those who need a bit of extra space and flexibility to support family life will have to move or face a significant cut to their income, whilst older people wanting to downsize, won't get a look in. | |
| 11.31am: The government's concessions to the House of Lords are paper thin, reckons my colleague Randeep Ramesh, the Guardian's social affairs editor. He writes: | 11.31am: The government's concessions to the House of Lords are paper thin, reckons my colleague Randeep Ramesh, the Guardian's social affairs editor. He writes: |
| Although Iain Duncan Smith, the welfare secretary, has listened to the upper house he has not heard the message. His first compromise for those families affected by the welfare cap to be given a "grace period" is just a sop to buy off the Liberal Democrats who shift nervously when asked after the effects on poverty. | Although Iain Duncan Smith, the welfare secretary, has listened to the upper house he has not heard the message. His first compromise for those families affected by the welfare cap to be given a "grace period" is just a sop to buy off the Liberal Democrats who shift nervously when asked after the effects on poverty. |
| The department used the same measure to quell dissent over the housing benefit caps. The discretionary fund will be small - and as the Guardian's own work shows - is often not spent by councils. | The department used the same measure to quell dissent over the housing benefit caps. The discretionary fund will be small - and as the Guardian's own work shows - is often not spent by councils. |
| As for the Child Support Agency, this is an intergenerational war between Tory grandees. Duncan Smith sees himself as refashioning welfare in moral terms. Thatcherites such as Lord Mackay dismiss this. Lord Lawson walked through the no lobby against the proposals muttering to those around him "not in my day". | As for the Child Support Agency, this is an intergenerational war between Tory grandees. Duncan Smith sees himself as refashioning welfare in moral terms. Thatcherites such as Lord Mackay dismiss this. Lord Lawson walked through the no lobby against the proposals muttering to those around him "not in my day". |
| As for the rest of the amendments, not a whiff of a concession from DWP. Yet a new YouGov poll of 2,032 people for Macmillan Cancer Support shows 72% of respondents said there should not be a time limit on the amount of time that someone suffering from cancer or the side-effects can receive benefits. | As for the rest of the amendments, not a whiff of a concession from DWP. Yet a new YouGov poll of 2,032 people for Macmillan Cancer Support shows 72% of respondents said there should not be a time limit on the amount of time that someone suffering from cancer or the side-effects can receive benefits. |
| Rethink, the mental health charity, points out that Liberal Democrats overwhelmingly voted against the time limit at their party conference. | Rethink, the mental health charity, points out that Liberal Democrats overwhelmingly voted against the time limit at their party conference. |
| Duncan Smith jealously guards his departmental fiefdom from the prying eyes of Downing St. He's all too aware of what happened in another big-spending department, health, when Downing Street got involved. | Duncan Smith jealously guards his departmental fiefdom from the prying eyes of Downing St. He's all too aware of what happened in another big-spending department, health, when Downing Street got involved. |
| So the trick here for the cabinet minister is to paint his opponents as being on the wrong side of the public. He is making his concessions tiny and his cuts big. Given the Commons whipping operation this may work with MPs. | So the trick here for the cabinet minister is to paint his opponents as being on the wrong side of the public. He is making his concessions tiny and his cuts big. Given the Commons whipping operation this may work with MPs. |
| But it is unlikely to assuage peers who have felt that they owe their seats in the upper house to no one but their consciences. | But it is unlikely to assuage peers who have felt that they owe their seats in the upper house to no one but their consciences. |
| 11.04am: The prime minister David Cameron has written a piece for the Sun explaining why he'll "fight all the way" for a benefit cap: | 11.04am: The prime minister David Cameron has written a piece for the Sun explaining why he'll "fight all the way" for a benefit cap: |
| The cap has caused a lot of debate so far. Bishops in the House of Lords voted to dilute it. Labour tried to obstruct it. Others have critcised it. | The cap has caused a lot of debate so far. Bishops in the House of Lords voted to dilute it. Labour tried to obstruct it. Others have critcised it. |
| I respect their concerns, but this is a plane I'm prepared to battle all he way - for three reasons. First it would restore fairness in our country. | I respect their concerns, but this is a plane I'm prepared to battle all he way - for three reasons. First it would restore fairness in our country. |
| I've lost count of the number of people who've said: "I go to work early in the morning and on the way I pass neighbours with their curtains closed, lying in because they've chosen to live on benefits." This infuriates people - and with good reason. | I've lost count of the number of people who've said: "I go to work early in the morning and on the way I pass neighbours with their curtains closed, lying in because they've chosen to live on benefits." This infuriates people - and with good reason. |
| Second the cap is going to help us crack welfare dependency. The last Government poured eye-watering amounts into welfare benefits. The result? Millions of people stuck out of work for years on end. | Second the cap is going to help us crack welfare dependency. The last Government poured eye-watering amounts into welfare benefits. The result? Millions of people stuck out of work for years on end. |
| Third, this is right because it ensures proper protection for the poorest. So I passionately believe this is right. | Third, this is right because it ensures proper protection for the poorest. So I passionately believe this is right. |
| 10.45am: To recap, here are the seven amendments to the bill passed in the Lords over the past two months: | 10.45am: To recap, here are the seven amendments to the bill passed in the Lords over the past two months: |
| • Amendment 12: Protects housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have un-needed spare rooms | • Amendment 12: Protects housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have un-needed spare rooms |
| • Amendment 36a: Protects young disabled people's eligibility for contributory Employment Support Allowance (ESA) | • Amendment 36a: Protects young disabled people's eligibility for contributory Employment Support Allowance (ESA) |
| • Amendment 38: Raises to 24 months the proposed 12-month limit on claiming contributory ESA. | • Amendment 38: Raises to 24 months the proposed 12-month limit on claiming contributory ESA. |
| • Amendment 38a: Exempts cancer patients from the contributory ESA limits | • Amendment 38a: Exempts cancer patients from the contributory ESA limits |
| • Amendment 59: Excludes child benefit from the £26,000 household benefit cap. | • Amendment 59: Excludes child benefit from the £26,000 household benefit cap. |
| • Amendment 62c: Drops the proposal to charge single parents for using the Child Support Agency. | • Amendment 62c: Drops the proposal to charge single parents for using the Child Support Agency. |
| • Amendment 1: Passed last night, this drops proposals to cut disability living allowance payments by up to £1,400 a year for around 100,000 children. | • Amendment 1: Passed last night, this drops proposals to cut disability living allowance payments by up to £1,400 a year for around 100,000 children. |
| 10.30am: Welcome to Day Twelve of the welfare reform bill live blog. After a possibly unprecedented seven defeats in the Lords, the bill today returns to the House of Commons, where the government has vowed to overturn a raft of amendments passed by peers. | 10.30am: Welcome to Day Twelve of the welfare reform bill live blog. After a possibly unprecedented seven defeats in the Lords, the bill today returns to the House of Commons, where the government has vowed to overturn a raft of amendments passed by peers. |
| Ministers face a tough challenge: they have the Commons majority to push the bill back to the Lords - assuming the Lib Dems don't rebel - but they may have to show that they have listened to the Lords' concerns that the potentially negative impact of the bill - on disabled adults and children, cancer patients, single mothers, and disadvantaged families - must be ameliorated. | Ministers face a tough challenge: they have the Commons majority to push the bill back to the Lords - assuming the Lib Dems don't rebel - but they may have to show that they have listened to the Lords' concerns that the potentially negative impact of the bill - on disabled adults and children, cancer patients, single mothers, and disadvantaged families - must be ameliorated. |
| According to my colleague Patrick Wintour, the work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith is offering just three concessions: | According to my colleague Patrick Wintour, the work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith is offering just three concessions: |
| • Families affected by the £26,000 welfare cap will be given at least nine months "grace period" to adapt to the loss of benefits, by fiinding a job or moving house. | • Families affected by the £26,000 welfare cap will be given at least nine months "grace period" to adapt to the loss of benefits, by fiinding a job or moving house. |
| • A discretionary fund will be established for local authorities to use in "difficult cases" - such ensuring a family is not forced to move when a child is at a critical stage in its schooling. | • A discretionary fund will be established for local authorities to use in "difficult cases" - such ensuring a family is not forced to move when a child is at a critical stage in its schooling. |
| • The lowest income single parents seeking support from the Child Support Agency will not be charged a fee (the current plan proposes a £50 fee for parents on out of work benefits) | • The lowest income single parents seeking support from the Child Support Agency will not be charged a fee (the current plan proposes a £50 fee for parents on out of work benefits) |
| The government, says Patrick, is preparing to play hardball on the bill: | The government, says Patrick, is preparing to play hardball on the bill: |
| Labour will resist the coalition's efforts to overturn the amendments, but there is little likelihood that Liberal Democrat MPs will join Labour in substantial numbers on Wednesday, thereby ensuring victory for the government. | Labour will resist the coalition's efforts to overturn the amendments, but there is little likelihood that Liberal Democrat MPs will join Labour in substantial numbers on Wednesday, thereby ensuring victory for the government. |
| The bill, restored to its original form, will then be returned to the Lords in the next few days and peers, especially a critical group of crossbenchers, will have to decide whether to have a trial of strength over the reforms by sticking to their guns. | The bill, restored to its original form, will then be returned to the Lords in the next few days and peers, especially a critical group of crossbenchers, will have to decide whether to have a trial of strength over the reforms by sticking to their guns. |
| The government is determined to ensure the bill is on the statute book this month, and intends to tell peers they are not going to win any substantial changes since the measures are necessary to cut the deficit. | The government is determined to ensure the bill is on the statute book this month, and intends to tell peers they are not going to win any substantial changes since the measures are necessary to cut the deficit. |
| Labour, meanwhile, has proposed a regional benefit cap and is calling for tighter regulation of "profiteering" private landlords. | Labour, meanwhile, has proposed a regional benefit cap and is calling for tighter regulation of "profiteering" private landlords. |
| Patrick notes that: | Patrick notes that: |
| [Lib Dem leader Nick] Clegg is facing internal pressures of his own from campaigners demanding that Liberal Democrats vote to support most of the big six amendments to the welfare bill forced through by peers over the past fortnight. | [Lib Dem leader Nick] Clegg is facing internal pressures of his own from campaigners demanding that Liberal Democrats vote to support most of the big six amendments to the welfare bill forced through by peers over the past fortnight. |
| But will the Lib Dems join with Labour in the Commons? | But will the Lib Dems join with Labour in the Commons? |
| The Commons debate is expected to start later this morning after prime minister's question time. The bill could return to the Lords today, and if peers insist that ministers make more concessions we could be in for a stand off. | The Commons debate is expected to start later this morning after prime minister's question time. The bill could return to the Lords today, and if peers insist that ministers make more concessions we could be in for a stand off. |
| We welcome your contributions to the blog. Leave comments below, or tweet me at @patrickjbutler | We welcome your contributions to the blog. Leave comments below, or tweet me at @patrickjbutler |