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Khodorkovsky director Cyril Tuschi in conversation with Luke Harding Khodorkovsky director Cyril Tuschi in conversation with Luke Harding
(40 minutes later)
LH: I also have to point out that this film has a scene with a hippo in it. It's the hippo as metaphor for the Russian state. Forget The Artist: it's the most weird and wonderful thing you will see.
Question from the audience: Can you foresee a President Khodorkovksy?
CT: The short answer is yes. He always says that he wants to go into renewable energy as and when he gets out, but I think he will always be involved in politics. So yes. Of course there is prejudice: everyone says that a Jew cannot be president.
LH: I can't see it at all. The current political situation is going to go on for a long time. We have another six years of Putin, despite the protests. The people at the top of the system is billionaires, and they have an interest in preserving the system an in keeping Putin in power. I personally find Khodorkovsky a hugely charismatic figure. But I can't see it happening.
CT: When making this film, I had to remind myself that this was a not a drama. There were real people involved. In the beginning I was leading a James Bond life: constantly taking the battery out of my phone.
LH: I should point out that this is standard practice for journalists in Russia. This is not paranoia. The Kremlin bugs your phone, so you take the battery out. Its not James Bond; everyone has to live life like that.
LH: Tell me about showing the film in Russia.
CT: All the distributors turned it down. They said 'We'd go out of business'. But then I met a woman who ran a film club and she said that she'd show it. But then right before it was due to show, all the cinemas in Moscow pulled out. I was scared. I flew over with a bodyguard and we finally showed the film in a cinema right near the Kremlin on December 2nd. And when people saw Putin on screen, everyone laughed. It showed me that the fear was going away. People saw the monster on screen and laughed.
Early on, when I first made the film, I was interviewed on state TV and they made fun of me. They edited it in such a way that I looked like a fool. When they asked me again, I said show me the edit before you show it, because I didn't want that to happen again. And this time it was fine - totally uncensored. What happened? The producer said 'We woke up'.
LH: Can the democratic uprising overthrow Putin?
CT: Yes. Maybe not right away. But yes. In a year or so.
CT: Yes, things happen because of money and because of power. Khodorkovsky was trying to cut a deal with the Americans, with Exxon and also with BP.
LH: I'm in a situation where I'm basically barred from Russia and I'm British. But you're German and are free to come and go. Is this down to Putin's romantic affinity to Germany?
CT: Yeah, I have a visa and can go back. Putin loves Germans! My next film is about dissidents and exiles, so maybe you can be it.
LH: Would you be interested in making a film about Alexander Litvinenko?
CT: No, I think my next film will be more of a fairytale. Having said that, I'm hooked on Russia now.
Question from the audience: The real question is that Khodorkovsky and Putin were fighting over a large chunk of Russian economy. Democracy was a side issue.
LH: There's a great bit at the end of the film, where Khodorkovsky actually speaks, it's the first interview he's ever been able to give from prison. What struck me was that he seemed serene and peaceful. How do you explain that?
CT: I was surprised! But you can never tell how people cope in that kind of situation. Some people develop an inner peace and stamina, and some people crack and grumble. But don't try this at home. That's what Khodorkovsky said. It's too big a gamble.
My theory is that Khodorkovksy is more Prussian that Russian. He's a hard worker, he's not fatalistic. And my theory is that in that respect he's quite similar to Putin, who speaks fluent German and has that quality as well. That may explain the antipathy between them. They are fighting for the same turf. Khodorkovsky is like the anti-Putin.
Question from the audience: Can you tell me what the story of the mayor and the murder was?
CT: Yes, the mayor of this provincial Russian was almost bankrupt and had some tax issues and was in dispute with Khodorkovsky. And the mayor was killed on Khodorkovsky's birthday. Putin essentially said that Khodorkovsky did it, but there is no actual evidence that he did, and the case was closed in 2000. But others say it was the Chechen mafia that did it.
LH: Question from the user. Mikhail Khodorkovsky is a wrong'un. Why should we support him?
CT: That's not what I set out to say. I was interested in the contradictions of him as a man, and why he came back to Russia when he could have fled to London like all the other oligarchs. I was interested in the drama of the man.
And regarding the moral thing, of course, if all the accusations of murdering his opponents (such as the Siberian mayor) was true, then I would stop the film and leave it up to a real journalist like you. But it's hard to make these things stand up. He's not the mega-angel and he's not the mega-devil. It's a lot more complicated than that.
CT: We set up 10 interviews in Moscow and out of those 10 interviews, 10 were cancelled. Then we premiered the film in Berlin (in January 2011) but the print was stolen. I was in Bali with my girlfriend beforehand, was editing the film until four in the morning, went to bed, woke up and found that my computer and my hard-drives were gone. And then I flew back to Berlin and re-did everything, 10 days of night shifts, and they came again, broke through eight doors and stole everything, all over again. So I had to do it all over again - finished the day before the premiere.
Who did it? Everyone I know said it was KGB, that it was in the style of the KGB. It made me paranoid. But I think it may have just been three idiots in Berlin who were in love with Macintosh computers. That's what I have to think.
In the end it all comes down to fear. I understand the fear, and Moscow runs on fear. But I think right now that fear is going. They see the monster isn't as bad as they thought he was. And that's maybe the moral of the film, if there is a moral.
LH: I love how you appear in the film, looking haggard and rough, with the Moscow pallour, getting turned away and with no cooperation from the Kremlin. How tough was it to get this film made?
CT: I didn't want to go down the Michael Moore route,which feels like a cheap trick sometimes. But I started keeping a video diary, which was the only way to tell the story and show the blank wall of resistance that I was encountering.
CT: I heard about Khodorkovsky and it sounded like a great Greek drama. From the highs to the lows, and the clash of these two titans. I wanted to do it as drama, but it didn't work out that way. Plus I could speak no Russian, so it was tough. So I started to research in Russia, which took about four years.
Cyril Tuschi: It's certainly interesting, but we're looking at tea leaves. Is it a good cop/bad cop act? Or is this Medvedev's last chance to leave office in dignity That's the positive interpretation.
LH: You're more optimistic than I am. Now maybe tell me about your own personal background as a German film-maker tackling this subject.
Luke Harding: Of all the days to see this film, this is the day: Vladimir Putin back in the Kremlin for another eight years or 8000-years. And I'm delighted to have Cyril Tuschi here tonight. I think this is a tremendous film. I wanted to start out asking you about Dimitry Medvedev's announcement that he is reviewing Khodorkovsky's sentence.
6.29pm: The guests have gathered, the wine is being consumed. The interview is about to begin.
6.20pm: In the wake of Vladimir Putin's tearful victory speech in Russia, the Guardian welcomes the film-maker Cyril Tuschi, in conversation with Guardian writer Luke Harding, ahead of a screening of the controversial documentary Khodorkovsky.
Tuschi's film charts the rise and fall of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who made billions from the privatisation of Russian's state assets in the 1990s, only to run up against the implacable Putin. Since 2005, Khodorkovsky has been languishing in a Siberian prison, six time zones from Russia, after being convicted of tax evasion and "stealing 350m barrels of oil". Yet many argue that Khodorkovsky's real crime was in funding opposition to Putin and in publicly challenging the Russian president over alleged corruption at the Kremlin.
Tuschi will be interviewed by Luke Harding, the Guardian's former Moscow correspondent and author of the acclaimed book Mafia State. The conversation kicks off at 6.30pm.
1.00pm: Mikhail Khodorkovsky was a symbol of the new Russia - the richest man in the world under the age of 40 - until he fell foul of president Vladimir Putin and was imprisoned in Siberia on charges of tax evasion. In the wake of Russia's 2012 presidential election, Khodorkovsky's sentence is now under review and the suggestion is he may be freed.1.00pm: Mikhail Khodorkovsky was a symbol of the new Russia - the richest man in the world under the age of 40 - until he fell foul of president Vladimir Putin and was imprisoned in Siberia on charges of tax evasion. In the wake of Russia's 2012 presidential election, Khodorkovsky's sentence is now under review and the suggestion is he may be freed.
Cyril Tuschi's documentary Khodorkovsky charts the rise and fall of the dissident oligarch and shines a worrying light on the state of Putin's Russia. Guardian journalist Luke Harding, whose new book, Mafia States, details the events that lead to him becoming the first western reporter to be expelled from Russia since the cold war, will be in conversation with Tuschi from 6:30 pm tonight.Cyril Tuschi's documentary Khodorkovsky charts the rise and fall of the dissident oligarch and shines a worrying light on the state of Putin's Russia. Guardian journalist Luke Harding, whose new book, Mafia States, details the events that lead to him becoming the first western reporter to be expelled from Russia since the cold war, will be in conversation with Tuschi from 6:30 pm tonight.
Xan Brooks will be here liveblogging their discussion. You can watch Khodorkovsky on our dedicated stream page and post your questions for Luke to put to Tuschi below.Xan Brooks will be here liveblogging their discussion. You can watch Khodorkovsky on our dedicated stream page and post your questions for Luke to put to Tuschi below.
6.20pm: In the wake of Vladimir Putin's tearful victory speech in Russia, the Guardian welcomes the film-maker Cyril Tuschi, in conversation with Guardian writer Luke Harding, ahead of a screening of the controversial documentary Khodorkovsky.
Tuschi's film charts the rise and fall of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who made billions from the privatisation of Russian's state assets in the 1990s, only to run up against the implacable Putin. Since 2005, Khodorkovsky has been languishing in a Siberian prison, six time zones from Russia, after being convicted of tax evasion and "stealing 350m barrels of oil". Yet many argue that Khodorkovsky's real crime was in funding opposition to Putin and in publicly challenging the Russian president over alleged corruption at the Kremlin.
Tuschi will be interviewed by Luke Harding, the Guardian's former Moscow correspondent and author of the acclaimed book Mafia State. The conversation kicks off at 6.30pm.
6.29pm: The guests have gathered, the wine is being consumed. The interview is about to begin.
Luke Harding: Of all the days to see this film, this is the day: Vladimir Putin back in the Kremlin for another eight years or 8000-years. And I'm delighted to have Cyril Tuschi here tonight. I think this is a tremendous film. I wanted to start out asking you about Dimitry Medvedev's announcement that he is reviewing Khodorkovsky's sentence.
Cyril Tuschi: It's certainly interesting, but we're looking at tea leaves. Is it a good cop/bad cop act? Or is it a genuine offer and is this Medvedev's last chance to leave office with dignity. That's the positive interpretation.
LH: You're more optimistic than I am. Now maybe tell me about your own personal background as a German film-maker tackling this subject.
CT: I heard about Khodorkovsky and it sounded like a great Greek drama. From the highs to the lows, and the clash of these two titans in him and Putin. I wanted to do it as a drama, but it didn't work out that way. Plus I could speak no Russian, so it was tough. So I started to research in Russia, which took about four years.
LH: I love how you appear in the film, looking haggard and rough, with the Moscow pallour, getting turned away and with no cooperation from the Kremlin. How tough was it to get this film made?
CT: I didn't want to go down the Michael Moore route, which feels like a cheap trick sometimes. But I started keeping a video diary, because it was the only way to tell the story and show the blank wall of resistance that I was encountering. We set up 10 interviews and then flew over to Moscow. Of those 10 interviews, all 10 were cancelled.
LH: Tell me what happened with the actual film, which I believe was stolen not once, but twice.
CT: We premiered the film in Berlin (in January 2011) but the film was stolen. I was in Bali with my girlfriend beforehand, and I was editing the film until four in the morning, went to bed, woke up and found that my computer and my hard-drives were gone. And then I flew back to Berlin and re-did everything, 10 days of night shifts. And then they came again, broke through eight doors and stole everything, all over again. So I had to do it all over again - I finally finished the day before the premiere.
Who did it? Everyone I know said it was KGB, that it was in the style of the KGB. It made me paranoid. But I think it may have just been three idiots in Berlin who were in love with Macintosh computers. That's what I have to think.
In the end it all comes down to fear. I understand the fear, and Moscow runs on fear. But I think right now that fear is going. They see the monster isn't as bad as they thought he was. And that's maybe the moral of the film, if there is a moral.
LH: Question from the user. Mikhail Khodorkovsky is a wrong'un. Why should we support him?
CT: That's not what I set out to say. I was interested in the contradictions of him as a man, and why he came back to Russia when he could have fled to London like all the other oligarchs. The Russians who were well off saw him as a loser who made the wrong gamble - an idiot who allowed himself to be caught. I was interested in the drama of the man.
And regarding the moral thing, of course, if all the accusations of murdering his opponents (such as the Siberian mayor) was true, then I would stop the film and leave it up to a real journalist like you. But it's hard to make these things stand up. He's not the mega-angel and he's not the mega-devil. It's a lot more complicated than that. But it is not my place to judge.
Question from the audience: Can you tell me what the story of the mayor and the murder was?
CT: Yes, the mayor of this provincial Russian town was almost bankrupt and had some tax issues, and was in a business dispute with Khodorkovsky. And the mayor was killed on Khodorkovsky's birthday. Putin essentially said that Khodorkovsky did it, but there is no actual evidence that he did, and the case was closed back in 2000. But others say it was the Chechen mafia that did it.
LH: There's a great bit at the end of the film, where Khodorkovsky actually speaks, it's the first interview he's ever been able to give from prison. What struck me was that he seemed serene and peaceful. How do you explain that?
CT: I was surprised! But you can never tell how people cope in that kind of situation. Some people develop an inner peace and stamina, and some people crack and grumble. But don't try this at home. That's what Khodorkovsky said. It's too big a gamble.
My theory is that Khodorkovksy is more Prussian than Russian. He's a hard worker, he's not fatalistic. He doesn't do booze. He wants to improve the structure of the country. And my theory is that in that respect he's quite similar to Putin, who speaks fluent German and has those similar qualities. That may explain the antipathy between them. They are acting the same way and fighting for the same turf. Khodorkovsky is like the anti-Putin.
LH: Alexander Litvinenko was initially hired to investigate the mayor's murder. Is there any connection between that investigation and Litvinenko's murder? Would you be interested in making a film about Alexander Litvinenko?
CT: No, I think my next film will be more innocent, more of a fairytale. Having said that, I'm hooked on Russia now.
Question from the audience: The real question is that Khodorkovsky and Putin were fighting over a large chunk of the Russian economy. Is the argument really about democracy? Surely democracy was a side issue.
CT: Yes, things happen because of money and because of power. Putin's Russia was about a restucturing of ownership. And Khodorkovsky was trying to cut a deal with the Americans, with Exxon and also with BP.
LH: I'm in a situation where I'm basically barred from Russia and I'm British. But you're German and are free to come and go as you please. Is this down to Putin's romantic affinity to Germany?
CT: Yeah, I have a visa and can go back. It must be because Putin loves Germans! My next film is about dissidents and exiles, so maybe you can be in it.
LH: Tell me about showing the film in Russia.
CT: All the distributors turned it down. They said 'We'd go out of business'. But then I met a woman who ran a film club and she said that she'd show it and organised distribution with no money and just two interns. But then right before it was due to show, 80% of the exhibitors pulled out. I was scared. I flew over with a bodyguard and we finally showed the film in a cinema right near the Kremlin on December 2nd. And when people saw Putin on screen, everyone laughed. And the discussion afterwards was very light-hearted. It showed me that the fear was going away. People saw the monster on screen and laughed.
Early on, when I first made the film, I was interviewed on state TV and they made fun of me. They edited it in such a way that I looked like a fool. When they asked me again, after all the dissent had started, I said show me the edit before you show it, because I didn't want the same thing to happen again. And this time it was fine - totally uncensored. What happened? The producer said 'We woke up'.
LH: Can the dissent and the protests overthrow Putin?
CT: Yes. Maybe not right away. But yes. In a year or so.
Question from the audience: How difficult was it for you personally to make this film?
CT: When making this film, I had to remind myself that this was a not a drama. There were real people involved. In the beginning I was leading a James Bond life: constantly taking the battery out of my phone.
LH: I should point out that this is standard practice for journalists in Russia. This is not paranoia. The Kremlin bugs your phone, so you take the battery out. Its not James Bond; everyone has to live life like that.
Question from the audience: Can you foresee a President Khodorkovksy?
CT: The short answer is yes. He always says that he wants to go into renewable energy as and when he gets out, but I think he will always be involved in politics. So yes. Of course there is prejudice: everyone says that a Jew cannot be president.
LH: I can't see it at all. The current political situation is going to go on for a long time. We have another six years of Putin, despite the protests. The people at the top of the system are billionaires, and they have a vested interest in preserving the system and in keeping Putin in power. They know that the first thing Khodorkovsky would do on taking power is to bring charges against Putin and they don't want that to happen. I personally find Khodorkovsky a hugely charismatic figure. But I can't see it happening.
LH: I also have to point out that this film has a scene with a hippo in it. It's the hippo as metaphor for the Russian state. Forget The Artist: it's the most weird and wonderful thing you will see.
And on that note, I'd like to thank Cyril Tuschi for joining us tonight.
The audience is now watching Khodorkovsky. You, too, can variously toast or protest Putin's disputed election victory by watching the film here.