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| The Queen's diamond jubilee: royalist or republican? | The Queen's diamond jubilee: royalist or republican? |
| (about 17 hours later) | |
| As final preparations for the jubilee celebration get under way, old friends and fellow feminists Rosie Boycott and Joan Smith discuss their plans for the holiday weekend – and thrash out their differences about the monarchy. Oliver Laughland keeps the peace. | As final preparations for the jubilee celebration get under way, old friends and fellow feminists Rosie Boycott and Joan Smith discuss their plans for the holiday weekend – and thrash out their differences about the monarchy. Oliver Laughland keeps the peace. |
| Rosie Boycott: Well, I'm going on a boat, which I'm very excited about. We'll be one of 1,000 boats on the Thames. It'll be incredibly good fun. It's something I will remember for ever. And having got an invite, why on earth would you turn it down? | Rosie Boycott: Well, I'm going on a boat, which I'm very excited about. We'll be one of 1,000 boats on the Thames. It'll be incredibly good fun. It's something I will remember for ever. And having got an invite, why on earth would you turn it down? |
| Joan Smith: Well, I'm very thrilled that I'm going to be speaking at a protest rally on the South Bank. Around 4pm, as the Queen's barge passes, I'll be making a republican speech. | Joan Smith: Well, I'm very thrilled that I'm going to be speaking at a protest rally on the South Bank. Around 4pm, as the Queen's barge passes, I'll be making a republican speech. |
| RB: And will the Queen be able to hear the republican speech? | RB: And will the Queen be able to hear the republican speech? |
| JS: That's not the point. It's a focal point for all the people who are fed up with all of this. I'm aghast at the amount of rubbish in shops, the idea that everyone in the country supports the royal family. | JS: That's not the point. It's a focal point for all the people who are fed up with all of this. I'm aghast at the amount of rubbish in shops, the idea that everyone in the country supports the royal family. |
| RB: I agree with you about the rubbish, but don't you think it's no different from Mother's Day or Father's Day, or any day the commercial world will fund to sell us stuff? I think many aspects of the royal family are not fit for purpose – it perpetuates a class system full of inequality. But then I ask myself, what would I do instead? There's a level of reasonable benignity about the Queen. She didn't achieve her position through money or wild ambition. | RB: I agree with you about the rubbish, but don't you think it's no different from Mother's Day or Father's Day, or any day the commercial world will fund to sell us stuff? I think many aspects of the royal family are not fit for purpose – it perpetuates a class system full of inequality. But then I ask myself, what would I do instead? There's a level of reasonable benignity about the Queen. She didn't achieve her position through money or wild ambition. |
| JS: Or election! Look, we're a country of over 60 million people and I find it hard to believe we can't find something better than the current system. My own observations of the Queen are that she isn't actually good at her job. I've seen her at Buckingham Palace garden parties – I was introduced to her once at a Christmas party. I said "hello" and smiled at her, and she looked absolutely aghast. She stared at me for a moment and then cut me dead and moved on, because I didn't curtsey and didn't speak until I was spoken to. I think she should have had the manners to say, "Very nice to meet you" or something. The other myth about them is that they're not political. I heard her bring up the subject of the EU and remarked it was getting very large. Somebody then said: "Yes, but we are hoping that Turkey will come in," and the Queen said: "Oh no we don't want Turkey to come in for a long time." That is unconstitutional. | |
| RB: Let me put forward a slightly different story. At the Chelsea flower show two years ago, the Eden project – which I'm the director of – had a garden created by homeless people. The Queen came to it and engaged in conversation, heard about the project and about another one called the Big Lunch – the idea being that on one day of the year everyone in the country gets together and has lunch. We got it off the ground and two million people took part. The Queen said: "That's what I want to do for my jubilee." There's very little else that will mobilise this many people, and that's not such a bad thing. | RB: Let me put forward a slightly different story. At the Chelsea flower show two years ago, the Eden project – which I'm the director of – had a garden created by homeless people. The Queen came to it and engaged in conversation, heard about the project and about another one called the Big Lunch – the idea being that on one day of the year everyone in the country gets together and has lunch. We got it off the ground and two million people took part. The Queen said: "That's what I want to do for my jubilee." There's very little else that will mobilise this many people, and that's not such a bad thing. |
| JS: But her "big lunch" involves inviting the king of Swaziland and the king of Bahrain … | JS: But her "big lunch" involves inviting the king of Swaziland and the king of Bahrain … |
| RB: Well yes, that's an ugly side of it, but our president might have to do the same thing. Who would you put there, then? | RB: Well yes, that's an ugly side of it, but our president might have to do the same thing. Who would you put there, then? |
| JS: I think it would be fantastic to have someone like Peter Tatchell. Someone who is actually quite warm with people and has a clear idea of what this country represents in terms of equality and human rights...In a way, I wouldn't mind if people wanted to elect somebody like David Beckham, he might be very good at it! | |
| RB: OK – let's get practical – how would it happen? | RB: OK – let's get practical – how would it happen? |
| JS: You'd have an election every four years. | JS: You'd have an election every four years. |
| RB: But how would we get from here to there? Which prime minister is going to call for a referendum on whether we keep the monarch? | RB: But how would we get from here to there? Which prime minister is going to call for a referendum on whether we keep the monarch? |
| JS: The problem is the abject failure of the press to report the monarchy properly in this country. People who cover the royal family don't do the kind of normal reporting you'd expect. They don't look at their finances or tax arrangements. The BBC wouldn't dream of putting this institution under scrutiny. So if you had a referendum at the moment, the republican sides would lose. It would help if we stopped treating them as some sort of walled-off institution, which can't be questioned. | JS: The problem is the abject failure of the press to report the monarchy properly in this country. People who cover the royal family don't do the kind of normal reporting you'd expect. They don't look at their finances or tax arrangements. The BBC wouldn't dream of putting this institution under scrutiny. So if you had a referendum at the moment, the republican sides would lose. It would help if we stopped treating them as some sort of walled-off institution, which can't be questioned. |
| RB: It's interesting, though, as I wouldn't say people are coming [to the jubilee] for the Queen. People are coming because there's never been a flotilla like it; it's a work of unbelievable organisation. | RB: It's interesting, though, as I wouldn't say people are coming [to the jubilee] for the Queen. People are coming because there's never been a flotilla like it; it's a work of unbelievable organisation. |
| JS: But that's not the way it'll be spun. | JS: But that's not the way it'll be spun. |
| RB: OK let's take the royal wedding. The image of Kate and William, as the new British golden couple went all around the world. Does it piss you off that this is what the world sees of us? | RB: OK let's take the royal wedding. The image of Kate and William, as the new British golden couple went all around the world. Does it piss you off that this is what the world sees of us? |
| JS: Absolutely! | JS: Absolutely! |
| RB: But for a lot of people it's a source of pleasure, in the same way that looking at Posh and Becks is a source of pleasure. | RB: But for a lot of people it's a source of pleasure, in the same way that looking at Posh and Becks is a source of pleasure. |
| JS: But we've come out of the feminist movement, and the idea that the pinnacle of what this country admires and aspires to is a very traditional marriage between somebody who wears a military uniform and someone who doesn't actually have a job is uncomfortable. | JS: But we've come out of the feminist movement, and the idea that the pinnacle of what this country admires and aspires to is a very traditional marriage between somebody who wears a military uniform and someone who doesn't actually have a job is uncomfortable. |
| RB: I agree, intellectually, with pretty much all that you've said, but I think there's something depressing about saying people can't go and enjoy [the jubilee]. You're saying people are stupid to enjoy it, and I find that tricky. There is this side to the republican movement that has always slightly got my goat because it approaches the issue from such an intellectual point of view that it somehow misses the fact that, to a lot people, whether you like it or not, it is important and means something. | RB: I agree, intellectually, with pretty much all that you've said, but I think there's something depressing about saying people can't go and enjoy [the jubilee]. You're saying people are stupid to enjoy it, and I find that tricky. There is this side to the republican movement that has always slightly got my goat because it approaches the issue from such an intellectual point of view that it somehow misses the fact that, to a lot people, whether you like it or not, it is important and means something. |
| JS: I'm not saying people are stupid. I'm saying they're not aware of how it'll be spun. What the republican movement actually does is ask the monarchy to be treated with the same type of rational scrutiny that other institutions are. | JS: I'm not saying people are stupid. I'm saying they're not aware of how it'll be spun. What the republican movement actually does is ask the monarchy to be treated with the same type of rational scrutiny that other institutions are. |
| RB: I would also say to you that we've all grown up in a world where we've believed that modernisation is a good thing. I'm 61 now, and I don't believe that any more. | RB: I would also say to you that we've all grown up in a world where we've believed that modernisation is a good thing. I'm 61 now, and I don't believe that any more. |
| JS: Oh, I love modernity! You and I wouldn't have had the careers we've had without it. | JS: Oh, I love modernity! You and I wouldn't have had the careers we've had without it. |
| RB: I think for you to say, carte blanche, that we would move into a better world that was more representative of the people [if a republic came into force], and that was able to make people feel better about themselves, is difficult. On the day of the flotilla, people on the whole in this country are going to feel quite good about being British. | RB: I think for you to say, carte blanche, that we would move into a better world that was more representative of the people [if a republic came into force], and that was able to make people feel better about themselves, is difficult. On the day of the flotilla, people on the whole in this country are going to feel quite good about being British. |
| Oliver Laughland: Will you be thinking of each other on the day? | Oliver Laughland: Will you be thinking of each other on the day? |
| RB: I will definitely be thinking of Joan. I might have to phone her from the boat and ask her how she's doing. | RB: I will definitely be thinking of Joan. I might have to phone her from the boat and ask her how she's doing. |
| JS: Given there'll be thousands of boats on the river, I think the chances of spotting you will be quite low! | JS: Given there'll be thousands of boats on the river, I think the chances of spotting you will be quite low! |
| RB: I could have offered you my extra ticket. It'll be great! Good company … | RB: I could have offered you my extra ticket. It'll be great! Good company … |
| JS: Well, that's true of our protest! | JS: Well, that's true of our protest! |
| RB: You'll even have a lavatory and sparkling water. You'll never get to do it again, it's a one-off experience. | RB: You'll even have a lavatory and sparkling water. You'll never get to do it again, it's a one-off experience. |
| OL: This won't affect your friendship, will it? | OL: This won't affect your friendship, will it? |
| RB: God, no! | RB: God, no! |
| • This article was amended on 26 May 2012 to clarify two points made by Joan Smith. This was requested by her. |
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