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You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/16/reddit-gawker-ban
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| Version 13 | Version 14 |
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| Why Reddit Politics ban on Gawker will stay, by a moderator | Why Reddit Politics ban on Gawker will stay, by a moderator |
| (1 day later) | |
| On Monday the Guardian ran a comment piece by James Ball on Reddit's decision to ban links to the gossip website Gawker after one of Gawker's writers confronted, and then revealed the identity of, a prominent user who had run message boards on Reddit with photos of women and underage girls, taken in the street or lifted from Facebook and elsewhere. | On Monday the Guardian ran a comment piece by James Ball on Reddit's decision to ban links to the gossip website Gawker after one of Gawker's writers confronted, and then revealed the identity of, a prominent user who had run message boards on Reddit with photos of women and underage girls, taken in the street or lifted from Facebook and elsewhere. |
| "Rearth" is a moderator on the popular Politics subreddit (and others), who contacted the Guardian after publication and verified his identity. His response and explanation of the actions of Reddit's moderators is below, slightly edited for clarity. | "Rearth" is a moderator on the popular Politics subreddit (and others), who contacted the Guardian after publication and verified his identity. His response and explanation of the actions of Reddit's moderators is below, slightly edited for clarity. |
| We need to be clear about this | We need to be clear about this |
| We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. There can be very little overlap between the communities of /r/AskHistorians, /r/LeagueOfLegends, /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu and /r/Hotchickswithtattoos. These communities have all been created by individuals, with any rules the founding individuals wish. To make statements like "Reddit is doing this" is for all intents and purposes meaningless. Creating a community is as simple as going to http://reddit.com/reddits/create. | We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. There can be very little overlap between the communities of /r/AskHistorians, /r/LeagueOfLegends, /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu and /r/Hotchickswithtattoos. These communities have all been created by individuals, with any rules the founding individuals wish. To make statements like "Reddit is doing this" is for all intents and purposes meaningless. Creating a community is as simple as going to http://reddit.com/reddits/create. |
| For what it's worth, I was strongly against the Gawker ban for the precise reasons James Ball listed. However the consensus amongst the /r/politics mods was that Chen was witch-hunting an individual – not for breaking a law, but for doing something he, Chen, found distasteful. We (as a group) found that a dangerous precedent to set. We feel that Chen has had a long campaign against Reddit, and decided (as a group, despite individual concerns) that we did not want to condone someone attempting to destroy someone's else's life for doing something they didn't like. | For what it's worth, I was strongly against the Gawker ban for the precise reasons James Ball listed. However the consensus amongst the /r/politics mods was that Chen was witch-hunting an individual – not for breaking a law, but for doing something he, Chen, found distasteful. We (as a group) found that a dangerous precedent to set. We feel that Chen has had a long campaign against Reddit, and decided (as a group, despite individual concerns) that we did not want to condone someone attempting to destroy someone's else's life for doing something they didn't like. |
| If Violentacrez had done anything illegal he would have been reported to the police long ago. In fact, he was the first line of defence against illegal content. As the mod in many of the distasteful subreddits he was responsible for removing and reporting illegal content. I'm not calling him a hero, personally I think he's a symptom of the GIFT (Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), but when you strip back the hyperbole, righteous indignation and misinformation that's being spread, that's the truth of the matter. | If Violentacrez had done anything illegal he would have been reported to the police long ago. In fact, he was the first line of defence against illegal content. As the mod in many of the distasteful subreddits he was responsible for removing and reporting illegal content. I'm not calling him a hero, personally I think he's a symptom of the GIFT (Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), but when you strip back the hyperbole, righteous indignation and misinformation that's being spread, that's the truth of the matter. |
| Witch-hunting is a large problem on sites like SomethingAwful, 4chan and reddit. People have lost jobs, families and even their lives after campaigns started on the internet. Campaigns run without due process or any real justice. Both myself and a number of other mods, together with the admins of reddit, take a very firm stand against witch-hunting. This is the basis for the /r/Politics ban. (Once again, I did not personally agree it was wise.) If laws are broken we are the first people to report this. We do not think it's our job to prevent anyone from ever being offended, as that's impossible to police. | Witch-hunting is a large problem on sites like SomethingAwful, 4chan and reddit. People have lost jobs, families and even their lives after campaigns started on the internet. Campaigns run without due process or any real justice. Both myself and a number of other mods, together with the admins of reddit, take a very firm stand against witch-hunting. This is the basis for the /r/Politics ban. (Once again, I did not personally agree it was wise.) If laws are broken we are the first people to report this. We do not think it's our job to prevent anyone from ever being offended, as that's impossible to police. |
| Gawker: the block remains | Gawker: the block remains |
| I do not think we will unblock Gawker – not for the foreseeable future, anyway. There would need to be a major change in the way Gawker approach stories like this before they [the mods] would reconsider. We have not formally discussed this, however. | I do not think we will unblock Gawker – not for the foreseeable future, anyway. There would need to be a major change in the way Gawker approach stories like this before they [the mods] would reconsider. We have not formally discussed this, however. |
| As for the creepshots subreddit itself. I only visited it once, and saw nothing that caused me much concern. Certainly it was nothing worse than this site. It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar. It had a very small number of readers (about 3,000) until it was linked by the mainstream press. | As for the creepshots subreddit itself. I only visited it once, and saw nothing that caused me much concern. Certainly it was nothing worse than this site. It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar. It had a very small number of readers (about 3,000) until it was linked by the mainstream press. |
| People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog. They also would not accuse readers of a separate blog of condoning the views of the offensive blog. | People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog. They also would not accuse readers of a separate blog of condoning the views of the offensive blog. |
| The sections being user-created and moderated makes a huge difference that people always overlook. Chen's concern over "double standards" is almost comical when viewed from this realisation. Different subreddits are completely different animals. | The sections being user-created and moderated makes a huge difference that people always overlook. Chen's concern over "double standards" is almost comical when viewed from this realisation. Different subreddits are completely different animals. |
| We have large and thriving LGBT communities, religious communities, self-help communities, music, TV show and book communities. | We have large and thriving LGBT communities, religious communities, self-help communities, music, TV show and book communities. |
| Just because a few hundred people do something you disapprove of in one dark corner does not mean all these other people are tacitly supporting them. | Just because a few hundred people do something you disapprove of in one dark corner does not mean all these other people are tacitly supporting them. |
| I do believe that Reddit (the company) needs to think about how it wants to deal with problems like this. Reddit (the site) is becoming mainstream now and the owners need to make a choice between being the spiritual successor to &totse, SA and 4chan - or if they want to be the family-friendly front page of the internet. | I do believe that Reddit (the company) needs to think about how it wants to deal with problems like this. Reddit (the site) is becoming mainstream now and the owners need to make a choice between being the spiritual successor to &totse, SA and 4chan - or if they want to be the family-friendly front page of the internet. |
| I don't think they can be both. | I don't think they can be both. |
| Comments | Comments |
| 24 comments, displaying first | |
| 16 October 2012 5:38PM | 16 October 2012 5:38PM |
| "It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar." | "It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar." |
| Well, that's your problem right there, Mr Reddit Moderator - you simply don't get how utterly unacceptable posting sneakily taken shots of underage girls on the internet actually is. It is NOT the Daily Mail sidebar. Instead you're all saying: "One of ours is being attacked: we must defend him." I predict it's very likely this is a row that will not go away and will eventually shake Reddit to the core. | Well, that's your problem right there, Mr Reddit Moderator - you simply don't get how utterly unacceptable posting sneakily taken shots of underage girls on the internet actually is. It is NOT the Daily Mail sidebar. Instead you're all saying: "One of ours is being attacked: we must defend him." I predict it's very likely this is a row that will not go away and will eventually shake Reddit to the core. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 16 October 2012 5:45PM | 16 October 2012 5:45PM |
| It is NOT the Daily Mail sidebar. | It is NOT the Daily Mail sidebar. |
| To be fair, it's not far off is it? Found this after 5 seconds of scrolling down the daily mail's sidebar: | To be fair, it's not far off is it? Found this after 5 seconds of scrolling down the daily mail's sidebar: |
| http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2218585/Stern-Suri-Cruise-looks-heads-school-hand-hand-mother-Katie-Holmes.html | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2218585/Stern-Suri-Cruise-looks-heads-school-hand-hand-mother-Katie-Holmes.html |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 16 October 2012 6:44PM | 16 October 2012 6:44PM |
| This "Rearth" guy really seems to know what's up. | This "Rearth" guy really seems to know what's up. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 16 October 2012 7:30PM | 16 October 2012 7:30PM |
| Chen is a guy who once pretended to be someone dying of cancer to score more reddit karma. That was a while back. That's the kind of person Chen is, a scumbag in the James O'Keefe vein, and he's been at it for a while so Gawker can't be ignorant of that. | Chen is a guy who once pretended to be someone dying of cancer to score more reddit karma. That was a while back. That's the kind of person Chen is, a scumbag in the James O'Keefe vein, and he's been at it for a while so Gawker can't be ignorant of that. |
| For all of you criticizing the decision, I hope you become a victim of cyber-bullying to the extent where you lose a spouse or a job due to the actions of people who have neither the authority nor the ability to properly investigate the claims they make. | For all of you criticizing the decision, I hope you become a victim of cyber-bullying to the extent where you lose a spouse or a job due to the actions of people who have neither the authority nor the ability to properly investigate the claims they make. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 16 October 2012 7:32PM | 16 October 2012 7:32PM |
| This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. | This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. |
| 16 October 2012 7:37PM | 16 October 2012 7:37PM |
| you simply don't get how utterly unacceptable posting sneakily taken shots of underage girls on the internet actually is. | you simply don't get how utterly unacceptable posting sneakily taken shots of underage girls on the internet actually is. |
| Wrong, I do get that. | Wrong, I do get that. |
| What you don't get is that vigilante justice is not justice. If you want to prevent things like this, the best method is not a lynching, it's legislation. | What you don't get is that vigilante justice is not justice. If you want to prevent things like this, the best method is not a lynching, it's legislation. |
| The IQ of a pitchfork-wielding mob is that of the least intelligent participant divided by the size of the crowd. | The IQ of a pitchfork-wielding mob is that of the least intelligent participant divided by the size of the crowd. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 16 October 2012 8:37PM | 16 October 2012 8:37PM |
| Just so you know: ViolentAcrez was added to that subreddit specifically because in the past he's proven himself to be quite adept at removing illegal, underage content. He was pretty much the de-facto "adult section" moderator because of his track record at doing this. | Just so you know: ViolentAcrez was added to that subreddit specifically because in the past he's proven himself to be quite adept at removing illegal, underage content. He was pretty much the de-facto "adult section" moderator because of his track record at doing this. |
| ViolentAcrez was a "lower mod" in that section, which means it was literally beyond his ability to shut it down. The person who actually started creepshots was the only person capable of doing that. | ViolentAcrez was a "lower mod" in that section, which means it was literally beyond his ability to shut it down. The person who actually started creepshots was the only person capable of doing that. |
| None of this excuses the existence of the subreddit or what some members were posting..but the fact remains that the witch everyone is searching for is not ViolentAcrez. It's the guy who started(and with that could shut down) /r/creepshots. | None of this excuses the existence of the subreddit or what some members were posting..but the fact remains that the witch everyone is searching for is not ViolentAcrez. It's the guy who started(and with that could shut down) /r/creepshots. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 12:30AM | 17 October 2012 12:30AM |
| This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. | This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. |
| 17 October 2012 12:43AM | 17 October 2012 12:43AM |
| Sounds like Violentacrez isn't the only one losing their job. How to Shut Down Reddit's CreepShots Once and for All: Name Names. From there, you can wander over to a Tumblr blog where the miscreants - reddit users who uploaded photos of passerbys without their consent - are listed along with their history. The person putting it all together is a a 25-year-old female Redditor. | Sounds like Violentacrez isn't the only one losing their job. How to Shut Down Reddit's CreepShots Once and for All: Name Names. From there, you can wander over to a Tumblr blog where the miscreants - reddit users who uploaded photos of passerbys without their consent - are listed along with their history. The person putting it all together is a a 25-year-old female Redditor. |
| Sounds like Reddit Politics is not speaking for the whole organisation, but from their own prejudices and biases. | Sounds like Reddit Politics is not speaking for the whole organisation, but from their own prejudices and biases. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 3:46AM | 17 October 2012 3:46AM |
| yes, downandout, that's kind of the point. RedditPolitics ISN'T speaking for the whole organization, as the writer makes clear a couple of dozen times in the article, A group of moderators voted about a specific individual targeting another specific individual-- in a specific sub-reddit. | yes, downandout, that's kind of the point. RedditPolitics ISN'T speaking for the whole organization, as the writer makes clear a couple of dozen times in the article, A group of moderators voted about a specific individual targeting another specific individual-- in a specific sub-reddit. |
| Sometimes muckrakers perform valuable services, and sometimes they just shovel shit. And it's hard to tell from the outside which is which. | Sometimes muckrakers perform valuable services, and sometimes they just shovel shit. And it's hard to tell from the outside which is which. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 7:10AM | 17 October 2012 7:10AM |
| What you don't get is that vigilante justice is not justice. If you want to prevent things like this, the best method is not a lynching, it's legislation. | What you don't get is that vigilante justice is not justice. If you want to prevent things like this, the best method is not a lynching, it's legislation. |
| I can't believe you really mean that there needs to be new legislation, and even if you do it seems to be rather naive given that there would need to be a law enacted in hundreds of different countries to cover this. | I can't believe you really mean that there needs to be new legislation, and even if you do it seems to be rather naive given that there would need to be a law enacted in hundreds of different countries to cover this. |
| And describing a story on Gawker as 'vigilante justice' is hyperbole. You may as well say the phone hacking investigation was the same thing - both are examples of journalism where reporters expose something that has been going on, and the people who have been doing those things have suffered the consequences of their actions. | And describing a story on Gawker as 'vigilante justice' is hyperbole. You may as well say the phone hacking investigation was the same thing - both are examples of journalism where reporters expose something that has been going on, and the people who have been doing those things have suffered the consequences of their actions. |
| Brutsch's defenders seem to think that he was entitled to anonymity to allow him to post non-pornographic pictures of underage girls without their consent for the sexual gratification of himself and his friends. The fact that his actions had consequences for some of those girls when classmates discovered those pictures online was obviously of no concern to him. I have no problem with what has happened to Brutsch. The idea that a cyberbully was actually a victim of cyberbullying as this Clevershark character seems to think is pure babble. | Brutsch's defenders seem to think that he was entitled to anonymity to allow him to post non-pornographic pictures of underage girls without their consent for the sexual gratification of himself and his friends. The fact that his actions had consequences for some of those girls when classmates discovered those pictures online was obviously of no concern to him. I have no problem with what has happened to Brutsch. The idea that a cyberbully was actually a victim of cyberbullying as this Clevershark character seems to think is pure babble. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 3:49PM | 17 October 2012 3:49PM |
| And describing a story on Gawker as 'vigilante justice' is hyperbole. | And describing a story on Gawker as 'vigilante justice' is hyperbole. |
| I disagree. | I disagree. |
| Gawker have stirring up a mass of righteous indignation for no reason other than pageviews. | Gawker have stirring up a mass of righteous indignation for no reason other than pageviews. |
| Gawker themselves have said "no one has the reasonable expectation of privacy when walking downt he street anymore". (link too video) Gawker themselves have a "upskirts" section. They are just as bad as these tiny sections of reddit that they like to get up in arms about. The Creepshots section was not of pre-pubescent girls, and was no worse than this site. Distasteful and "creepy", but not illegal. | Gawker themselves have said "no one has the reasonable expectation of privacy when walking downt he street anymore". (link too video) Gawker themselves have a "upskirts" section. They are just as bad as these tiny sections of reddit that they like to get up in arms about. The Creepshots section was not of pre-pubescent girls, and was no worse than this site. Distasteful and "creepy", but not illegal. |
| I'm not saying that these reddit sections are perfectly moral and ok. What I'm saying is that they are not illegal, and I don't agree with people trying to ruin someone's life just because they do something they disagree with. | I'm not saying that these reddit sections are perfectly moral and ok. What I'm saying is that they are not illegal, and I don't agree with people trying to ruin someone's life just because they do something they disagree with. |
| What if people decided to go after the section for LGBT teenagers and out them to their parents, just because they hate gays? I don't see the difference. These are both a case of people finding someone's lifestyle immoral, though legal, and trying to do something about it. This could affect every niche subculture subreddit. | What if people decided to go after the section for LGBT teenagers and out them to their parents, just because they hate gays? I don't see the difference. These are both a case of people finding someone's lifestyle immoral, though legal, and trying to do something about it. This could affect every niche subculture subreddit. |
| I did not want this precedent set. | I did not want this precedent set. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 3:51PM | 17 October 2012 3:51PM |
| Damn typos... | Damn typos... |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 4:01PM | 17 October 2012 4:01PM |
| That sounds like I'm saying "Gawker are terrible so reddit is allowed to be terrible". That's not what I intended. | That sounds like I'm saying "Gawker are terrible so reddit is allowed to be terrible". That's not what I intended. |
| There are problems with some sections on reddit, I acknowledge this. But the right way to deal with these is legislation not lynchings. If not a change in the law, then a change in site policy. Going after individuals is treating the symptom, and a reckless course of action with unforeseen consequences. | There are problems with some sections on reddit, I acknowledge this. But the right way to deal with these is legislation not lynchings. If not a change in the law, then a change in site policy. Going after individuals is treating the symptom, and a reckless course of action with unforeseen consequences. |
| Mentioning Gawker is pointing out they're the last people who should be throwing stones. | Mentioning Gawker is pointing out they're the last people who should be throwing stones. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 4:26PM | 17 October 2012 4:26PM |
| Let's be clear, doing"creepy things" is not against the law... It might be distasteful to the precious politically correct, but that's neither here or there. | Let's be clear, doing"creepy things" is not against the law... It might be distasteful to the precious politically correct, but that's neither here or there. |
| The real problem is puffed-up amateur ‘moderators’ who set themselves up as judge and jury, and censor material based on their own political and social beliefs. Social sites and online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’. | The real problem is puffed-up amateur ‘moderators’ who set themselves up as judge and jury, and censor material based on their own political and social beliefs. Social sites and online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 4:40PM | 17 October 2012 4:40PM |
| The Daily Mail has raised a similar issue about Anonymous, who they describe as 'The internet vigilantes', supposedly 'outing' the man it claims harassed a 15-year-old girl online to the extent that she killed herself | The Daily Mail has raised a similar issue about Anonymous, who they describe as 'The internet vigilantes', supposedly 'outing' the man it claims harassed a 15-year-old girl online to the extent that she killed herself |
| http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218532/Amanda-Todd-Anonymous-names-man-drove-teen-kill-spreading-nude-pictures.html | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218532/Amanda-Todd-Anonymous-names-man-drove-teen-kill-spreading-nude-pictures.html |
| They express similar concerns by stating that 'the move by Anonymous sparks concerns over its abilities to create a 'trial by internet' - bypassing the justice system and casting guilt'. Just like here | They express similar concerns by stating that 'the move by Anonymous sparks concerns over its abilities to create a 'trial by internet' - bypassing the justice system and casting guilt'. Just like here |
| I guess that the likes of Chris Jefferies, the McCanns and Amanda Knox are quite acquainted with that sort of Internet vigilantism, aren't they? Can one maybe assume that the DM think that there are the good vigilantes and the bad ones? | I guess that the likes of Chris Jefferies, the McCanns and Amanda Knox are quite acquainted with that sort of Internet vigilantism, aren't they? Can one maybe assume that the DM think that there are the good vigilantes and the bad ones? |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 4:45PM | 17 October 2012 4:45PM |
| @ Clay Childe 17 October 2012 4:26PM | @ Clay Childe 17 October 2012 4:26PM |
| 'online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’.' | 'online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’.' |
| Nice sideswipe, but I really doubt that such minions get the chance to defend themselves by saying 'I was not obeying superior orders' | Nice sideswipe, but I really doubt that such minions get the chance to defend themselves by saying 'I was not obeying superior orders' |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 4:47PM | 17 October 2012 4:47PM |
| Sounds like Reddit Politics is not speaking for the whole organisation, but from their own prejudices and biases. | Sounds like Reddit Politics is not speaking for the whole organisation, but from their own prejudices and biases. |
| Did you read the article? | Did you read the article? |
| We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. .... People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog | We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. .... People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog |
| The article itself makes it clear that one subreddit can not speak for the whole community, and that one user can not speak for the website. | The article itself makes it clear that one subreddit can not speak for the whole community, and that one user can not speak for the website. |
| So yes, it does sound like that. Just like the article said. | So yes, it does sound like that. Just like the article said. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 17 October 2012 5:19PM | 17 October 2012 5:19PM |
| The real problem is puffed-up amateur ‘moderators’ who set themselves up as judge and jury, and censor material based on their own political and social beliefs. Social sites and online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’. | The real problem is puffed-up amateur ‘moderators’ who set themselves up as judge and jury, and censor material based on their own political and social beliefs. Social sites and online newspapers do themselves no favours by delegating censorship to idiots who have no authority and no experience other than their own inflated self-worth as upholders of societies ‘values’. |
| You are right! But you seem to be under the misconception that this is an accident. | You are right! But you seem to be under the misconception that this is an accident. |
| The whole point of reddit is that anyone, even you, can come along a create a section with whatever rules they want. If you hate a section for its community or moderators, then you are under no obligation to read it. | The whole point of reddit is that anyone, even you, can come along a create a section with whatever rules they want. If you hate a section for its community or moderators, then you are under no obligation to read it. |
| I could create a section on my favourite brand of peanut butter, and ban anyone who mentions a rival brand. This is because reddit (the site) is simply a "community engine". It has no editorial control over the sub-sections, and this is by design not accident. | I could create a section on my favourite brand of peanut butter, and ban anyone who mentions a rival brand. This is because reddit (the site) is simply a "community engine". It has no editorial control over the sub-sections, and this is by design not accident. |
| If you don't like it, don't read it! I'm sure, however, that you'll be able to find a section you do like, or even create your own one. As long as it breaks no laws then the admins of the site will make no interference whatsoever! | If you don't like it, don't read it! I'm sure, however, that you'll be able to find a section you do like, or even create your own one. As long as it breaks no laws then the admins of the site will make no interference whatsoever! |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 18 October 2012 1:29AM | 18 October 2012 1:29AM |
| Reddit needs to understand that banning news sites critical of them is never going to fly with the general public and its going to stick in throat of journalists whos entire damn job is to expose bad people. Gawker should not change. It did what journalists do, exposed a creep. On the contrary, Reddit needs to change and understand that you cant be a "free speech site" that allows the organized mass harrassment of young women whilst also trying to suppress dissent, and still be taken seriously as anything other than hypocrites. | Reddit needs to understand that banning news sites critical of them is never going to fly with the general public and its going to stick in throat of journalists whos entire damn job is to expose bad people. Gawker should not change. It did what journalists do, exposed a creep. On the contrary, Reddit needs to change and understand that you cant be a "free speech site" that allows the organized mass harrassment of young women whilst also trying to suppress dissent, and still be taken seriously as anything other than hypocrites. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 18 October 2012 7:56AM | 18 October 2012 7:56AM |
| "Vigilante justice" would surely involve some sort of punishment by the mob. Yet where is the mob? The reams of comments below the Gawker piece? In which case any story exposing an individual's behaviour counts as vigilante justice. Is the mob constituted by social media pages on places like Facebook making the usual empty threats? In which case, if you want to stop that sort of thing, don't we need to look at whether or not people have the right to anonymously comment on news and other things in the public domain? In places like, I don't know, Reddit? | "Vigilante justice" would surely involve some sort of punishment by the mob. Yet where is the mob? The reams of comments below the Gawker piece? In which case any story exposing an individual's behaviour counts as vigilante justice. Is the mob constituted by social media pages on places like Facebook making the usual empty threats? In which case, if you want to stop that sort of thing, don't we need to look at whether or not people have the right to anonymously comment on news and other things in the public domain? In places like, I don't know, Reddit? |
| And what punishment has the mob visited upon Brutsch? Criticism of his actions. No one has published his address. The decision to sack him was taken by his employer, and I can find no hint that anyone put the firm under pressure to sack him. There were no campaigns targeting his pay-day loan company. No one threatened to boycott it. I'm not even sure if anyone knew where he worked before he announced that he'd been sacked. | And what punishment has the mob visited upon Brutsch? Criticism of his actions. No one has published his address. The decision to sack him was taken by his employer, and I can find no hint that anyone put the firm under pressure to sack him. There were no campaigns targeting his pay-day loan company. No one threatened to boycott it. I'm not even sure if anyone knew where he worked before he announced that he'd been sacked. |
| Link to this comment: | Link to this comment: |
| 18 October 2012 8:04AM | 18 October 2012 8:04AM |
| There are problems with some sections on reddit, I acknowledge this. But the right way to deal with these is legislation not lynchings. If not a change in the law, then a change in site policy. Going after individuals is treating the symptom, and a reckless course of action with unforeseen consequences. | There are problems with some sections on reddit, I acknowledge this. But the right way to deal with these is legislation not lynchings. If not a change in the law, then a change in site policy. Going after individuals is treating the symptom, and a reckless course of action with unforeseen consequences. |
| Great, but it would seem from the reaction by Reddit, then the reaction by the volunteer mods, that Reddit doesn't seem to think there's much of a problem on their doorstep but that there is one in the outside world. Dozens of news outlets had highlighted "jailbait" and they were thoroughly reluctant to do anything about that. As far as I know, creepshots and the rest are still going strong. | Great, but it would seem from the reaction by Reddit, then the reaction by the volunteer mods, that Reddit doesn't seem to think there's much of a problem on their doorstep but that there is one in the outside world. Dozens of news outlets had highlighted "jailbait" and they were thoroughly reluctant to do anything about that. As far as I know, creepshots and the rest are still going strong. |
| By the way, what legislation would you suggest? | By the way, what legislation would you suggest? |
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| 19 October 2012 9:58AM | |
| Interesting to note, in Michael Brutsch's CNN interview, he blamed Reddit for a great deal, saying "[Reddit] encouraged and enabled this sort of behavior and I shouldn't have been apart of that." While this mod seems to think reddit is nothing more than a loose collective of pages, Mr. Brutsch, now caught out, seems to lay quite a bit of blame at reddit's feet. | |
| Link to this comment: | |
| 19 October 2012 10:29AM | |
| re: that tubecrush site: So it's ok to take leery candids of males but not females? Obviously both are wrong but why the discrepancy? | |
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| A moderator on Reddit's /r/Politics subreddit explains why it will keep blocking Gawker – and why Violentacrez wasn't so bad | A moderator on Reddit's /r/Politics subreddit explains why it will keep blocking Gawker – and why Violentacrez wasn't so bad |
| On Monday the Guardian ran a comment piece by James Ball on Reddit's decision to ban links to the gossip website Gawker after one of Gawker's writers confronted, and then revealed the identity of, a prominent user who had run message boards on Reddit with photos of women and underage girls, taken in the street or lifted from Facebook and elsewhere. | On Monday the Guardian ran a comment piece by James Ball on Reddit's decision to ban links to the gossip website Gawker after one of Gawker's writers confronted, and then revealed the identity of, a prominent user who had run message boards on Reddit with photos of women and underage girls, taken in the street or lifted from Facebook and elsewhere. |
| "Rearth" is a moderator on the popular Politics subreddit (and others), who contacted the Guardian after publication and verified his identity. His response and explanation of the actions of Reddit's moderators is below, slightly edited for clarity. | "Rearth" is a moderator on the popular Politics subreddit (and others), who contacted the Guardian after publication and verified his identity. His response and explanation of the actions of Reddit's moderators is below, slightly edited for clarity. |
| We need to be clear about this | We need to be clear about this |
| We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. There can be very little overlap between the communities of /r/AskHistorians, /r/LeagueOfLegends, /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu and /r/Hotchickswithtattoos. These communities have all been created by individuals, with any rules the founding individuals wish. To make statements like "Reddit is doing this" is for all intents and purposes meaningless. Creating a community is as simple as going to http://reddit.com/reddits/create. | We need to be clear on this: Reddit is not a monolithic entity. It's a collection of communities. There can be very little overlap between the communities of /r/AskHistorians, /r/LeagueOfLegends, /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu and /r/Hotchickswithtattoos. These communities have all been created by individuals, with any rules the founding individuals wish. To make statements like "Reddit is doing this" is for all intents and purposes meaningless. Creating a community is as simple as going to http://reddit.com/reddits/create. |
| For what it's worth, I was strongly against the Gawker ban for the precise reasons James Ball listed. However the consensus amongst the /r/politics mods was that Chen was witch-hunting an individual – not for breaking a law, but for doing something he, Chen, found distasteful. We (as a group) found that a dangerous precedent to set. We feel that Chen has had a long campaign against Reddit, and decided (as a group, despite individual concerns) that we did not want to condone someone attempting to destroy someone's else's life for doing something they didn't like. | For what it's worth, I was strongly against the Gawker ban for the precise reasons James Ball listed. However the consensus amongst the /r/politics mods was that Chen was witch-hunting an individual – not for breaking a law, but for doing something he, Chen, found distasteful. We (as a group) found that a dangerous precedent to set. We feel that Chen has had a long campaign against Reddit, and decided (as a group, despite individual concerns) that we did not want to condone someone attempting to destroy someone's else's life for doing something they didn't like. |
| If Violentacrez had done anything illegal he would have been reported to the police long ago. In fact, he was the first line of defence against illegal content. As the mod in many of the distasteful subreddits he was responsible for removing and reporting illegal content. I'm not calling him a hero, personally I think he's a symptom of the GIFT (Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), but when you strip back the hyperbole, righteous indignation and misinformation that's being spread, that's the truth of the matter. | If Violentacrez had done anything illegal he would have been reported to the police long ago. In fact, he was the first line of defence against illegal content. As the mod in many of the distasteful subreddits he was responsible for removing and reporting illegal content. I'm not calling him a hero, personally I think he's a symptom of the GIFT (Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), but when you strip back the hyperbole, righteous indignation and misinformation that's being spread, that's the truth of the matter. |
| Witch-hunting is a large problem on sites like SomethingAwful, 4chan and reddit. People have lost jobs, families and even their lives after campaigns started on the internet. Campaigns run without due process or any real justice. Both myself and a number of other mods, together with the admins of reddit, take a very firm stand against witch-hunting. This is the basis for the /r/Politics ban. (Once again, I did not personally agree it was wise.) If laws are broken we are the first people to report this. We do not think it's our job to prevent anyone from ever being offended, as that's impossible to police. | Witch-hunting is a large problem on sites like SomethingAwful, 4chan and reddit. People have lost jobs, families and even their lives after campaigns started on the internet. Campaigns run without due process or any real justice. Both myself and a number of other mods, together with the admins of reddit, take a very firm stand against witch-hunting. This is the basis for the /r/Politics ban. (Once again, I did not personally agree it was wise.) If laws are broken we are the first people to report this. We do not think it's our job to prevent anyone from ever being offended, as that's impossible to police. |
| Gawker: the block remains | Gawker: the block remains |
| I do not think we will unblock Gawker – not for the foreseeable future, anyway. There would need to be a major change in the way Gawker approach stories like this before they [the mods] would reconsider. We have not formally discussed this, however. | I do not think we will unblock Gawker – not for the foreseeable future, anyway. There would need to be a major change in the way Gawker approach stories like this before they [the mods] would reconsider. We have not formally discussed this, however. |
| As for the creepshots subreddit itself. I only visited it once, and saw nothing that caused me much concern. Certainly it was nothing worse than this site. It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar. It had a very small number of readers (about 3,000) until it was linked by the mainstream press. | As for the creepshots subreddit itself. I only visited it once, and saw nothing that caused me much concern. Certainly it was nothing worse than this site. It was distasteful, but only as distasteful as your average Daily Mail sidebar. It had a very small number of readers (about 3,000) until it was linked by the mainstream press. |
| People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog. They also would not accuse readers of a separate blog of condoning the views of the offensive blog. | People need to view the Reddit website as more like [free blogs space] Blogger than ["social news" site] Digg. If there was a distasteful blog on Blogger, people would not accuse Google of having direct editorial control over that blog. They also would not accuse readers of a separate blog of condoning the views of the offensive blog. |
| The sections being user-created and moderated makes a huge difference that people always overlook. Chen's concern over "double standards" is almost comical when viewed from this realisation. Different subreddits are completely different animals. | The sections being user-created and moderated makes a huge difference that people always overlook. Chen's concern over "double standards" is almost comical when viewed from this realisation. Different subreddits are completely different animals. |
| We have large and thriving LGBT communities, religious communities, self-help communities, music, TV show and book communities. | We have large and thriving LGBT communities, religious communities, self-help communities, music, TV show and book communities. |
| Just because a few hundred people do something you disapprove of in one dark corner does not mean all these other people are tacitly supporting them. | Just because a few hundred people do something you disapprove of in one dark corner does not mean all these other people are tacitly supporting them. |
| I do believe that Reddit (the company) needs to think about how it wants to deal with problems like this. Reddit (the site) is becoming mainstream now and the owners need to make a choice between being the spiritual successor to &totse, SA and 4chan - or if they want to be the family-friendly front page of the internet. | I do believe that Reddit (the company) needs to think about how it wants to deal with problems like this. Reddit (the site) is becoming mainstream now and the owners need to make a choice between being the spiritual successor to &totse, SA and 4chan - or if they want to be the family-friendly front page of the internet. |
| I don't think they can be both. | I don't think they can be both. |