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| Obama inauguration tree protester: abortion is 'America's Holocaust' | Obama inauguration tree protester: abortion is 'America's Holocaust' |
| (30 days later) | |
| Rives Miller Grogan, preacher and anti-abortion campaigner, made headlines last week after climbing a tree and shouting about "killing babies" during Barack Obama's inauguration in Washington DC. | Rives Miller Grogan, preacher and anti-abortion campaigner, made headlines last week after climbing a tree and shouting about "killing babies" during Barack Obama's inauguration in Washington DC. |
| He made more headlines when he was subsequently banned from DC until a 25 February court date, which will come just two days before he is due before a court in Ohio after running onto the field during a Cincinnati Reds game in October. | He made more headlines when he was subsequently banned from DC until a 25 February court date, which will come just two days before he is due before a court in Ohio after running onto the field during a Cincinnati Reds game in October. |
| Grogan was already banned from the US Capitol and its public galleries before inauguration day – part of the DC charges relate to flouting that order – after loudly shouting anti-abortion rhetoric. | Grogan was already banned from the US Capitol and its public galleries before inauguration day – part of the DC charges relate to flouting that order – after loudly shouting anti-abortion rhetoric. |
| The Guardian spoke to Grogan by phone as he made his way back to his home in Los Angeles from DC, stopping off at his mother's home in Texas en route. | The Guardian spoke to Grogan by phone as he made his way back to his home in Los Angeles from DC, stopping off at his mother's home in Texas en route. |
| In many ways, Grogan is a typical far-right activist. He identifies as Republican – Paul Ryan, Rick Santorum and Rand Paul are his favourite politicians – and cites his Christian beliefs as inspiring his opposition to abortion, homosexuality and sex before marriage. | In many ways, Grogan is a typical far-right activist. He identifies as Republican – Paul Ryan, Rick Santorum and Rand Paul are his favourite politicians – and cites his Christian beliefs as inspiring his opposition to abortion, homosexuality and sex before marriage. |
| But while these beliefs are standard-issue social conservative fare, it might come as a surprise to some to hear Grogan say he was also demonstrating in favour of stricter gun control when he clambered up his tree. Here is our conversation, which has been lightly edited. | But while these beliefs are standard-issue social conservative fare, it might come as a surprise to some to hear Grogan say he was also demonstrating in favour of stricter gun control when he clambered up his tree. Here is our conversation, which has been lightly edited. |
| What made you decide to climb that tree? | What made you decide to climb that tree? |
| I'm an open-air street preacher, and I've been trying to get this message out for years. If I preached and hadn't climbed a tree, they would have come and arrested me. I had to get this message out about defunding Planned Parenthood and about abortion. America spends $1bn a day to kill about 3,000 babies a day through Planned Parenthood. And the reason I had to climb the tree … I knew they were going to oppress my speech and arrest me for exercising my first amendment right. If I hadn't have climbed the tree they would have arrested me and my message would have been cut way short, I might have got about 10 seconds before they arrested me. | I'm an open-air street preacher, and I've been trying to get this message out for years. If I preached and hadn't climbed a tree, they would have come and arrested me. I had to get this message out about defunding Planned Parenthood and about abortion. America spends $1bn a day to kill about 3,000 babies a day through Planned Parenthood. And the reason I had to climb the tree … I knew they were going to oppress my speech and arrest me for exercising my first amendment right. If I hadn't have climbed the tree they would have arrested me and my message would have been cut way short, I might have got about 10 seconds before they arrested me. |
| What was the response like? | What was the response like? |
| It wasn't a good response, because of course it was mostly a Democratic audience. And really they are the ones that need to hear it too, because they put him into office. Mostly a negative response. | It wasn't a good response, because of course it was mostly a Democratic audience. And really they are the ones that need to hear it too, because they put him into office. Mostly a negative response. |
| In what way? | In what way? |
| Some people were flipping me the bird. When I first put up my sign – my sign said "Pray to end abortion", and on the back it said "Defund Planned Parenthood or government shutdown" – as soon as I showed my sign, it was almost a big uproar, you know: "Ohhh no!" | Some people were flipping me the bird. When I first put up my sign – my sign said "Pray to end abortion", and on the back it said "Defund Planned Parenthood or government shutdown" – as soon as I showed my sign, it was almost a big uproar, you know: "Ohhh no!" |
| Why are you opposed to abortion? | Why are you opposed to abortion? |
| Because I'm a Christian. The Bible talks about the shedding of innocent blood, and I went to bible college, which was very pro-life. In bible college they would pass around a container of a baby that had actually been aborted, so I saw that. And then just studying it throughout the years, I know it's wrong and that the baby's a human being. I'm a Christian and I believe we should stand up to try and save the babies. | Because I'm a Christian. The Bible talks about the shedding of innocent blood, and I went to bible college, which was very pro-life. In bible college they would pass around a container of a baby that had actually been aborted, so I saw that. And then just studying it throughout the years, I know it's wrong and that the baby's a human being. I'm a Christian and I believe we should stand up to try and save the babies. |
| You have a track record of this protest. Can you understand people taking offence at the way you try and spread your message? | You have a track record of this protest. Can you understand people taking offence at the way you try and spread your message? |
| Before I even started preaching, I knew that most people who were pro-life would not even go to that inauguration. I do understand why people would be upset because they're there for the inauguration, and I've got a message, a loud message, and really it needs to be shared because it's America's holocaust. It disrupted their programme but it really needed to be disrupted to get this message out there. | Before I even started preaching, I knew that most people who were pro-life would not even go to that inauguration. I do understand why people would be upset because they're there for the inauguration, and I've got a message, a loud message, and really it needs to be shared because it's America's holocaust. It disrupted their programme but it really needed to be disrupted to get this message out there. |
| If Mitt Romney had won the election would it have made any difference? | If Mitt Romney had won the election would it have made any difference? |
| Oh yeah, absolutely, because if Mitt Romney had won, first of all he would have cut off all federal funding. Obama gives $500m a year to Planned Parenthood. If Mitt Romney had won he would have cut those off and the money sent overseas, and I think, even more importantly, the next supreme court justice will be appointed by Obama. | Oh yeah, absolutely, because if Mitt Romney had won, first of all he would have cut off all federal funding. Obama gives $500m a year to Planned Parenthood. If Mitt Romney had won he would have cut those off and the money sent overseas, and I think, even more importantly, the next supreme court justice will be appointed by Obama. |
| Initially he was pro-abortion but he genuinely had a conversion and changed stance and from that time on he has been pro-life, so he would have followed through with it because that's what he had stood for in the past. | Initially he was pro-abortion but he genuinely had a conversion and changed stance and from that time on he has been pro-life, so he would have followed through with it because that's what he had stood for in the past. |
| Was it scary up the tree? | Was it scary up the tree? |
| I didn't go up that high at first, but then they brought a ladder. When they brought a ladder the crowd started cheering, like "Yeah, get him out of the tree!" I knew if i hadn't have gone higher they would have come after me so I had to climb. When the wind blew it kind of swayed and that got a little bit nervous but overall the lord was with me, I was up there for five hours, so I was fine. | I didn't go up that high at first, but then they brought a ladder. When they brought a ladder the crowd started cheering, like "Yeah, get him out of the tree!" I knew if i hadn't have gone higher they would have come after me so I had to climb. When the wind blew it kind of swayed and that got a little bit nervous but overall the lord was with me, I was up there for five hours, so I was fine. |
| Will this deter you? Do you have any other protests lined up? | Will this deter you? Do you have any other protests lined up? |
| I can't preach anywhere in DC, so when I go to court on the 25th, in front of the courthouse. That's really the only place I can be legally. I plan to open-air preach, and I preach pretty loud. I plan to preach before I go into the courthouse. | I can't preach anywhere in DC, so when I go to court on the 25th, in front of the courthouse. That's really the only place I can be legally. I plan to open-air preach, and I preach pretty loud. I plan to preach before I go into the courthouse. |
| Obviously you're opposed to Obama, but which politicians do you feel represent what you're trying to say? | Obviously you're opposed to Obama, but which politicians do you feel represent what you're trying to say? |
| I represent, really, the Republican party. But I was in agreement, I was also preaching, to ban assault weapons – that's one of the reasons why I was up there. While I was preaching, I told them, "What if I had an assault weapon right now?" And I paused, and I said: "I won't shoot you, but a lunatic might. We need to ban assault weapons to save the children." | I represent, really, the Republican party. But I was in agreement, I was also preaching, to ban assault weapons – that's one of the reasons why I was up there. While I was preaching, I told them, "What if I had an assault weapon right now?" And I paused, and I said: "I won't shoot you, but a lunatic might. We need to ban assault weapons to save the children." |
| So it was a joint protest, or was it predominantly abortion? | So it was a joint protest, or was it predominantly abortion? |
| Well, it was predominantly abortion, but also, I preach against homosexuality, that homosexuality is a sin, and I also preach that Obama is an anti-Christ. That he is against Christ, and that he is against the scriptures because Obama is pro-homosexual, he's pro-abortion, and the Bible and scriptures are clearly against homosexuality, so Obama has an anti-Christ spirit. | Well, it was predominantly abortion, but also, I preach against homosexuality, that homosexuality is a sin, and I also preach that Obama is an anti-Christ. That he is against Christ, and that he is against the scriptures because Obama is pro-homosexual, he's pro-abortion, and the Bible and scriptures are clearly against homosexuality, so Obama has an anti-Christ spirit. |
| Why are you against homosexuality? | Why are you against homosexuality? |
| Well, that's what the Bible says. The Bible calls it a sin, in fact the Bible says those that practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God. And it also says that those who practice fornication – sex outside marriage – will not inherit the kingdom of God. It teaches that homosexuality is an abomination to God, that's what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah, God destroyed a whole city because of that and other sins. | Well, that's what the Bible says. The Bible calls it a sin, in fact the Bible says those that practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God. And it also says that those who practice fornication – sex outside marriage – will not inherit the kingdom of God. It teaches that homosexuality is an abomination to God, that's what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah, God destroyed a whole city because of that and other sins. |
| It does say that in the Bible, but do you think maybe there is a different way of interpreting the Bible in the modern age? Other things are said in the Bible that we wouldn't necessarily follow now. | It does say that in the Bible, but do you think maybe there is a different way of interpreting the Bible in the modern age? Other things are said in the Bible that we wouldn't necessarily follow now. |
| No, because there's no different way to interpret it. It says it in the New Testament. The New Testament says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. It also says in the last days there will be false teachers who will twist the gospel, so it's not a matter of interpretation, it's just a matter of going against what the Bible says. | No, because there's no different way to interpret it. It says it in the New Testament. The New Testament says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. It also says in the last days there will be false teachers who will twist the gospel, so it's not a matter of interpretation, it's just a matter of going against what the Bible says. |
| Some people may say that that is a bit intolerant, to be opposed fundamentally to homosexuality. What would your response be to that? | Some people may say that that is a bit intolerant, to be opposed fundamentally to homosexuality. What would your response be to that? |
| No, I'm not intolerant. I mean, Jesus Christ: we love the homosexuals, we love all people. It's their behaviour: a sin. Just like I'm opposed to the shedding of innocent blood, I'm opposed to homosexuality. They're another person, we love and we pray that they will repent and turn back to Christ, and truly be saved, but there is a heaven and there is a hell. We don't want anyone to go to hell, but unless they repent of that sin, they're in danger of going to hell. | No, I'm not intolerant. I mean, Jesus Christ: we love the homosexuals, we love all people. It's their behaviour: a sin. Just like I'm opposed to the shedding of innocent blood, I'm opposed to homosexuality. They're another person, we love and we pray that they will repent and turn back to Christ, and truly be saved, but there is a heaven and there is a hell. We don't want anyone to go to hell, but unless they repent of that sin, they're in danger of going to hell. |
| Is there any politician who you feel represents your views at the moment? | Is there any politician who you feel represents your views at the moment? |
| Paul Ryan, Rick Santorum, people like that. Their stances on abortion. Paul Ryan – very very good, I think he's going to have a chance to maybe run in 2016. He's got a lot of respect. Also, Rand Paul, oh yeah. Rand Paul from Kentucky, he's actually trying to get a personhood amendment passed. He's got a lot of respect in the pro-life community. | Paul Ryan, Rick Santorum, people like that. Their stances on abortion. Paul Ryan – very very good, I think he's going to have a chance to maybe run in 2016. He's got a lot of respect. Also, Rand Paul, oh yeah. Rand Paul from Kentucky, he's actually trying to get a personhood amendment passed. He's got a lot of respect in the pro-life community. |
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