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| Is pop too posh? | Is pop too posh? |
| (6 months later) | |
| Dorian Lynskey, author and music journalist | Dorian Lynskey, author and music journalist |
| First things first – I hate the game not the player. Apart from the fact that education is a flawed measure of privilege – rich children attend state schools in wealthy areas; poor ones win scholarships to top public schools – talent speaks for itself and not even the most hardline class warrior refuses to enjoy Nick Drake or the Beastie Boys on principle because of where they studied. The problem is how far pop's centre of gravity has shifted in favour of the privileged. | First things first – I hate the game not the player. Apart from the fact that education is a flawed measure of privilege – rich children attend state schools in wealthy areas; poor ones win scholarships to top public schools – talent speaks for itself and not even the most hardline class warrior refuses to enjoy Nick Drake or the Beastie Boys on principle because of where they studied. The problem is how far pop's centre of gravity has shifted in favour of the privileged. |
| For one thing, as Sandie Shaw protested to the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee last week, it's symptomatic of diminishing opportunities for working-class artists: it's hard to imagine Pulp surviving long enough to write Common People under the current benefits system. For another, as Shaw also said, social homogeneity narrows the range of experience that informs the music we hear. Any discussion of class in pop is required, seemingly by law, to note that Joe Strummer was a privately educated diplomat's son, but the point is that he was one of the exceptions in punk, surrounded by people whose music drew on very different backgrounds. Public school may be able to give us a Joe Strummer but it can't give us a Johnny Rotten. | For one thing, as Sandie Shaw protested to the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee last week, it's symptomatic of diminishing opportunities for working-class artists: it's hard to imagine Pulp surviving long enough to write Common People under the current benefits system. For another, as Shaw also said, social homogeneity narrows the range of experience that informs the music we hear. Any discussion of class in pop is required, seemingly by law, to note that Joe Strummer was a privately educated diplomat's son, but the point is that he was one of the exceptions in punk, surrounded by people whose music drew on very different backgrounds. Public school may be able to give us a Joe Strummer but it can't give us a Johnny Rotten. |
| Rob Fitzpatrick writes about music and culture | Rob Fitzpatrick writes about music and culture |
| I have to raise a hand at this point and admit that I genuinely don't understand your argument. The question was, is pop too posh?, an idea even someone as uneducated as I – my university years were spent working in record shops – can sense is ridiculous. Indeed, you yourself line up some great examples of middle-class pop genius – so thanks for that. I must also admit I'm struggling to recognise these "diminishing opportunities for working-class artists" you mention. Where are these working-class artists being denied their chance? The democratisation of technology has allowed everyone in – Big Narstie or Skream or Tinie Tempah don't need to waste years of their life on the dole waiting for their muse to strike, they're out there making it happen every day. Millions of people would like to be pop stars: 99.99% of them never will be – that's how it's always been. | I have to raise a hand at this point and admit that I genuinely don't understand your argument. The question was, is pop too posh?, an idea even someone as uneducated as I – my university years were spent working in record shops – can sense is ridiculous. Indeed, you yourself line up some great examples of middle-class pop genius – so thanks for that. I must also admit I'm struggling to recognise these "diminishing opportunities for working-class artists" you mention. Where are these working-class artists being denied their chance? The democratisation of technology has allowed everyone in – Big Narstie or Skream or Tinie Tempah don't need to waste years of their life on the dole waiting for their muse to strike, they're out there making it happen every day. Millions of people would like to be pop stars: 99.99% of them never will be – that's how it's always been. |
| While we're at it, where is this homogeneity? I don't see that either. There's never been more music, more entertainment and more ideas so readily available. "Talent speaks for itself", you say and it certainly does. And because it does, any notion of privilege having any part at all in pop success is, frankly, risible. | While we're at it, where is this homogeneity? I don't see that either. There's never been more music, more entertainment and more ideas so readily available. "Talent speaks for itself", you say and it certainly does. And because it does, any notion of privilege having any part at all in pop success is, frankly, risible. |
| DL: OK, let me break it down. Only 7% of British pupils attend fee-paying schools yet they are disproportionately dominant in pop (hip-hop aside), from Mumford & Sons and Coldplay to Florence Welch and the Vaccines. Does that suggest a level playing field? Do rising rents and living costs, combined with shrinking benefits and record deals, not favour the financially privileged at all? | DL: OK, let me break it down. Only 7% of British pupils attend fee-paying schools yet they are disproportionately dominant in pop (hip-hop aside), from Mumford & Sons and Coldplay to Florence Welch and the Vaccines. Does that suggest a level playing field? Do rising rents and living costs, combined with shrinking benefits and record deals, not favour the financially privileged at all? |
| No wonder Shaw is dismayed. She emerged in the early 60s, when music was just one of many cultural fields revolutionised by the working and lower-middle classes. Even by the time of Britpop the music scene was still sufficiently diverse that Damon Albarn, state-educated son of an academic, could be considered "the posh one". In terms of social mobility, music, like cinema and comedy, seems to be going in the same direction as the media, parliament and indeed the whole country: backwards. | No wonder Shaw is dismayed. She emerged in the early 60s, when music was just one of many cultural fields revolutionised by the working and lower-middle classes. Even by the time of Britpop the music scene was still sufficiently diverse that Damon Albarn, state-educated son of an academic, could be considered "the posh one". In terms of social mobility, music, like cinema and comedy, seems to be going in the same direction as the media, parliament and indeed the whole country: backwards. |
| I don't hear many newcomers with the socially insurgent outsider energy of the Smiths or Manic Street Preachers. A band like Mumford & Sons aren't the cause but they're a symptom of all the economic factors that influence whether talent is allowed to grow and flourish. | I don't hear many newcomers with the socially insurgent outsider energy of the Smiths or Manic Street Preachers. A band like Mumford & Sons aren't the cause but they're a symptom of all the economic factors that influence whether talent is allowed to grow and flourish. |
| Peering through your prescription-strength rose-tinted spectacles, you say you haven't noticed any of this, but imagine for a moment that you had. Would it bother you? | Peering through your prescription-strength rose-tinted spectacles, you say you haven't noticed any of this, but imagine for a moment that you had. Would it bother you? |
| RF: But, hang on; the biggest British pop star in the world as we speak is Adele. Is she middle class too? Or is she, like a remarkably more successful version of Ms Shaw, a working-class girl made (extremely) good? This whole thing really is such utter nonsense – if there really was such a thing as privilege making pop success easier then why can't James McCartney get a gig? Why did Kelly Osbourne's career crash into the buffers (twice)? What happened to Sting's daughter's stab at the big-time, I Blame Coco? Why aren't the charts full of superstar-offspring? | RF: But, hang on; the biggest British pop star in the world as we speak is Adele. Is she middle class too? Or is she, like a remarkably more successful version of Ms Shaw, a working-class girl made (extremely) good? This whole thing really is such utter nonsense – if there really was such a thing as privilege making pop success easier then why can't James McCartney get a gig? Why did Kelly Osbourne's career crash into the buffers (twice)? What happened to Sting's daughter's stab at the big-time, I Blame Coco? Why aren't the charts full of superstar-offspring? |
| Is it because, actually, none of that matters at all? Um, yes. Is it also because the only thing that does matter is writing songs that connect with people and delivering them in a distinct and affecting way? Um, also yes. Hand on heart time; do you honestly think people all over the world buy Mumford & Sons records because their parents are (relatively) wealthy? Really? | Is it because, actually, none of that matters at all? Um, yes. Is it also because the only thing that does matter is writing songs that connect with people and delivering them in a distinct and affecting way? Um, also yes. Hand on heart time; do you honestly think people all over the world buy Mumford & Sons records because their parents are (relatively) wealthy? Really? |
| Pop went through a political phase (in an attempt to sell records and fund careers) when you were young. That affected you emotionally. I understand that. But that was 25 years ago, Dorian. Let it go. | Pop went through a political phase (in an attempt to sell records and fund careers) when you were young. That affected you emotionally. I understand that. But that was 25 years ago, Dorian. Let it go. |
| DL: God, what a grim, glib worldview. Is genuine principle that unimaginable? Have political songs ever been a short cut to fame and fortune? But we're not debating protest songs so let's move on. | DL: God, what a grim, glib worldview. Is genuine principle that unimaginable? Have political songs ever been a short cut to fame and fortune? But we're not debating protest songs so let's move on. |
| I agree that Adele is a shining example of something good that the industry has done to broaden the talent pool. The Brit school gets some knocks but it nurtured Adele and cabbie's daughter Amy Winehouse so more power to it. As for the second-generation celebrities you mention, the corrective of public indifference doesn't mean they didn't get unfair advantages in the first place. I've no doubt people buy Mumford & Sons records because they like the songs rather than as a favour to the King's College school alumni association, but you're skipping to the end of the process. It's during the early days that you find an imbalance of opportunity in favour of the wealthy and well-connected. Some working-class performers will always break through – witness Jake Bugg, discovered by the BBC – but the odds are worse than they were 20, 30, even 50 years ago. Saying that everything's fine and nothing has changed isn't celebratory, just depressingly complacent. | I agree that Adele is a shining example of something good that the industry has done to broaden the talent pool. The Brit school gets some knocks but it nurtured Adele and cabbie's daughter Amy Winehouse so more power to it. As for the second-generation celebrities you mention, the corrective of public indifference doesn't mean they didn't get unfair advantages in the first place. I've no doubt people buy Mumford & Sons records because they like the songs rather than as a favour to the King's College school alumni association, but you're skipping to the end of the process. It's during the early days that you find an imbalance of opportunity in favour of the wealthy and well-connected. Some working-class performers will always break through – witness Jake Bugg, discovered by the BBC – but the odds are worse than they were 20, 30, even 50 years ago. Saying that everything's fine and nothing has changed isn't celebratory, just depressingly complacent. |
| RF: Well, I suppose grim and glib is one way of looking at it, another is that I'm not blinded by some sort of self-delusion. Why this lustful yearning for a sainted working-class cultural movement? What's wrong with actual working-class musical movements like grime, garage, dubstep and UK bass? | RF: Well, I suppose grim and glib is one way of looking at it, another is that I'm not blinded by some sort of self-delusion. Why this lustful yearning for a sainted working-class cultural movement? What's wrong with actual working-class musical movements like grime, garage, dubstep and UK bass? |
| Truthfully, my typing fingers would freeze up with shame if I attempted to call someone out for their "unfair advantages". You and I are both enormously lucky to do what we do. Perhaps the only difference between us is that when I see a version of that same desperately unfair luck in someone else my first reaction is to whistle out loud in the street with pleasure. Someone's getting away with it. Good! Accusing pop of being too posh is like accusing it of being too tall or too Wednesday; it's plain silly. | Truthfully, my typing fingers would freeze up with shame if I attempted to call someone out for their "unfair advantages". You and I are both enormously lucky to do what we do. Perhaps the only difference between us is that when I see a version of that same desperately unfair luck in someone else my first reaction is to whistle out loud in the street with pleasure. Someone's getting away with it. Good! Accusing pop of being too posh is like accusing it of being too tall or too Wednesday; it's plain silly. |
| You have one thing right though, there is a grotesque "imbalance" here – Florence, the Mumfords, Jake Bugg, Benga, Adele et al can all make music millions of people love. We can't. I'm OK with that, in fact the more clear the imbalance is, the more I love them for it. | You have one thing right though, there is a grotesque "imbalance" here – Florence, the Mumfords, Jake Bugg, Benga, Adele et al can all make music millions of people love. We can't. I'm OK with that, in fact the more clear the imbalance is, the more I love them for it. |
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