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Israeli Envoy Shares Thoughts as He Prepares for a New Chapter Israel’s U.S. Envoy Shares Thoughts as He Prepares for a New Chapter
(about 14 hours later)
WASHINGTON — Michael B. Oren was a novel choice for Israel’s ambassador to the United States, when he took up his post in May 2009. An American-born academic who held Israeli and American passports, Mr. Oren was best known for his landmark book on the 1967 Middle East war.WASHINGTON — Michael B. Oren was a novel choice for Israel’s ambassador to the United States, when he took up his post in May 2009. An American-born academic who held Israeli and American passports, Mr. Oren was best known for his landmark book on the 1967 Middle East war.
Telegenic and assertive, he vigorously defended Israel’s policies on CNN, “The Colbert Report” and “Real Time with Bill Maher.” But he also found himself in the middle of a chilly relationship between his boss, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and President Obama.Telegenic and assertive, he vigorously defended Israel’s policies on CNN, “The Colbert Report” and “Real Time with Bill Maher.” But he also found himself in the middle of a chilly relationship between his boss, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and President Obama.
Now, after four and a half hectic years, Mr. Oren is leaving his post this fall. He plans to write another book on the history of American involvement in the Middle East and is mulling a future in Israeli politics. We sat down with him Wednesday in his office, amid growing speculation that Israel and the Palestinians were poised to restart peace negotiations. The following is an edited transcript of the conversation.Now, after four and a half hectic years, Mr. Oren is leaving his post this fall. He plans to write another book on the history of American involvement in the Middle East and is mulling a future in Israeli politics. We sat down with him Wednesday in his office, amid growing speculation that Israel and the Palestinians were poised to restart peace negotiations. The following is an edited transcript of the conversation.
Q. When you took this job, President Obama was voicing impatience with Israel and the Palestinians for not starting peace negotiations. As you leave, the United States is still struggling to restart the talks. Is there any more cause for optimism today?Q. When you took this job, President Obama was voicing impatience with Israel and the Palestinians for not starting peace negotiations. As you leave, the United States is still struggling to restart the talks. Is there any more cause for optimism today?
I think that the Israeli and American leaderships have come to know each much better over the course of the last four years. Obama has said he spent more time meeting and talking to Netanyahu than any other foreign leader. And that intimacy has had, I think, a substantive effect on the peace process and how it’s being conducted.I think that the Israeli and American leaderships have come to know each much better over the course of the last four years. Obama has said he spent more time meeting and talking to Netanyahu than any other foreign leader. And that intimacy has had, I think, a substantive effect on the peace process and how it’s being conducted.
The American and Israeli positions now so closely dovetail: they both call for the immediate resumption of direct talks between the Israelis and Palestinians without preconditions. That doesn’t mean we agree on every little detail. But the broad approach today is virtually, I think, indistinguishable.The American and Israeli positions now so closely dovetail: they both call for the immediate resumption of direct talks between the Israelis and Palestinians without preconditions. That doesn’t mean we agree on every little detail. But the broad approach today is virtually, I think, indistinguishable.
Q. Would you include in that category the formulation that President Obama laid out two years ago: 1967 borders, with agreed upon land swaps, as a basis for the negotiation?Q. Would you include in that category the formulation that President Obama laid out two years ago: 1967 borders, with agreed upon land swaps, as a basis for the negotiation?
We haven’t signed on to that specifically. There were elements, if you took the two speeches that Obama gave in May of 2011, where you could find a vision of peace that we could accord with.We haven’t signed on to that specifically. There were elements, if you took the two speeches that Obama gave in May of 2011, where you could find a vision of peace that we could accord with.
Q. Secretary of State John Kerry has put the peace process at the top of his agenda. Is it worth that much attention, in a world where Egypt is in turmoil and the death toll in the Syrian civil war is nearing 100,000?Q. Secretary of State John Kerry has put the peace process at the top of his agenda. Is it worth that much attention, in a world where Egypt is in turmoil and the death toll in the Syrian civil war is nearing 100,000?
It’s a valid question, but there’s a flip side to it: It is precisely because the area is in turmoil, and precisely because our — Israel’s and America’s — ability to contain that drama is limited, that we have to focus on the one area where we can bring about a fundamental change. If we can progress toward that goal, it will better position us to deal with the chaos around us.It’s a valid question, but there’s a flip side to it: It is precisely because the area is in turmoil, and precisely because our — Israel’s and America’s — ability to contain that drama is limited, that we have to focus on the one area where we can bring about a fundamental change. If we can progress toward that goal, it will better position us to deal with the chaos around us.
There are other reasons to solve the Palestinian problem: we have to look at Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. I am particularly focused on the erosion of Israel’s legitimacy, particularly among elites in the press, on certain university campuses. I’m acutely aware of that.There are other reasons to solve the Palestinian problem: we have to look at Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. I am particularly focused on the erosion of Israel’s legitimacy, particularly among elites in the press, on certain university campuses. I’m acutely aware of that.
Q. Last week, Mr. Netanyahu sounded a fresh alarm about Iran’s determination to build a nuclear weapon. Are we heading into a new period of U.S.-Israel tension over Iran?Q. Last week, Mr. Netanyahu sounded a fresh alarm about Iran’s determination to build a nuclear weapon. Are we heading into a new period of U.S.-Israel tension over Iran?
No. I think that we’re in a different place, certainly, than even a year ago, with much better communication and understanding. We see the same intel; we interpret it virtually the same way.No. I think that we’re in a different place, certainly, than even a year ago, with much better communication and understanding. We see the same intel; we interpret it virtually the same way.
But the fundamental structural difference between the United States and Israel remains. America’s clock is large and slow, and our clock is small and fast. And what we have is this dialogue between clocks.But the fundamental structural difference between the United States and Israel remains. America’s clock is large and slow, and our clock is small and fast. And what we have is this dialogue between clocks.
With the election of [Iranian President Hassan] Rouhani, people are saying, “Well, there should be another round of negotiation to see whether he’s truly moderate.” There’s a basic problem, which is: he doesn’t make the nuclear policy, and in the past, he’s gone on record saying that Iran should publicly adopt a moderate policy while continuing to install centrifuges.With the election of [Iranian President Hassan] Rouhani, people are saying, “Well, there should be another round of negotiation to see whether he’s truly moderate.” There’s a basic problem, which is: he doesn’t make the nuclear policy, and in the past, he’s gone on record saying that Iran should publicly adopt a moderate policy while continuing to install centrifuges.
Q. You were ambassador during a period of turbulence in U.S.-Israel relations, at least at the very top. How would you characterize the relationship between Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Obama today?Q. You were ambassador during a period of turbulence in U.S.-Israel relations, at least at the very top. How would you characterize the relationship between Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Obama today?
These two men, both of whom are very, very smart, practical-minded, political-minded, strategic thinkers — I can’t go into the personal rapport. But all the meetings have friendly. Both of them are quick-witted guys. We’ve disagreed, but we’ve disagreed in a friendly way.These two men, both of whom are very, very smart, practical-minded, political-minded, strategic thinkers — I can’t go into the personal rapport. But all the meetings have friendly. Both of them are quick-witted guys. We’ve disagreed, but we’ve disagreed in a friendly way.
It’s not the father-son relationship that [Bill] Clinton had with [Yitzhak] Rabin. But it is an open, frank — I’m looking for the right word — sophisticated, mature relationship. It’s a relationship between two mature leaders. They’ve come to know each other much better, especially after [Mr. Obama’s] trip. They spent hours together alone. That was different.It’s not the father-son relationship that [Bill] Clinton had with [Yitzhak] Rabin. But it is an open, frank — I’m looking for the right word — sophisticated, mature relationship. It’s a relationship between two mature leaders. They’ve come to know each other much better, especially after [Mr. Obama’s] trip. They spent hours together alone. That was different.
Q. Israel had suspicions about the Muslim Brotherhood-led government in Egypt. So was the army’s ouster of Mohamed Morsi a positive or negative development for Israel?Q. Israel had suspicions about the Muslim Brotherhood-led government in Egypt. So was the army’s ouster of Mohamed Morsi a positive or negative development for Israel?
Israel has a paramount interest in a stable, financially secure, and preferably democratic Egypt. The last thing we want to see is Egypt as a failed state. We also have an interest in the preservation of American influence in Egypt. And our principle interest is the preservation of the peace.Israel has a paramount interest in a stable, financially secure, and preferably democratic Egypt. The last thing we want to see is Egypt as a failed state. We also have an interest in the preservation of American influence in Egypt. And our principle interest is the preservation of the peace.
American aid is a source of some controversy. The aid was extended to the Egyptians under the rubric of the 1979 peace treaty. Since we want the peace to be continued, you can understand what our position is on aid. You can extrapolate.American aid is a source of some controversy. The aid was extended to the Egyptians under the rubric of the 1979 peace treaty. Since we want the peace to be continued, you can understand what our position is on aid. You can extrapolate.
Q. How has the upheaval in the Middle East changed Israel’s place in the world?Q. How has the upheaval in the Middle East changed Israel’s place in the world?
What the last few years have done is underscore Israel’s success as a highly functioning democracy — a rambunctious democracy, but a highly functioning democracy. We managed to avert a major war in Gaza. We have not been dragged into various conflicts around us. We’ve been able to put our strategic relationship with the United States on vastly improved footing.What the last few years have done is underscore Israel’s success as a highly functioning democracy — a rambunctious democracy, but a highly functioning democracy. We managed to avert a major war in Gaza. We have not been dragged into various conflicts around us. We’ve been able to put our strategic relationship with the United States on vastly improved footing.
Q. Why, then, has it coincided with increased questions about Israel’s legitimacy? Q. Why, then, has it coincided with increased questions about Israel’s legitimacy?
I think that when confronted with the dizzying and dismaying complexities of the Middle East, some people want to latch on to simplistic answers: “All of this is happening because some Israelis put a caravan on a hill in the West Bank.” That would make it somehow palatable, understandable.I think that when confronted with the dizzying and dismaying complexities of the Middle East, some people want to latch on to simplistic answers: “All of this is happening because some Israelis put a caravan on a hill in the West Bank.” That would make it somehow palatable, understandable.
Sometimes, too, Israelis look for simple answers. What’s the big issue in Israel today? The big issue is ultra-Orthodox service in the military. The world is unraveling around us and this is what Israelis are focusing on, because they want to focus on a situation they can impact.Sometimes, too, Israelis look for simple answers. What’s the big issue in Israel today? The big issue is ultra-Orthodox service in the military. The world is unraveling around us and this is what Israelis are focusing on, because they want to focus on a situation they can impact.
Q. President Obama has talked about pivoting to Asia at the same time that the United States is becoming more energy independent. If America is less tied to the Middle East, does that worry Israel?Q. President Obama has talked about pivoting to Asia at the same time that the United States is becoming more energy independent. If America is less tied to the Middle East, does that worry Israel?
The question is whether the Middle East will pivot from the United States. You remember the iconic image of the Vietnam War: pushing those helicopters off the aircraft carrier. You could do that in 1975 and be pretty confident that the North Vietnamese weren’t going to follow you to Pennsylvania Avenue or Park Avenue.The question is whether the Middle East will pivot from the United States. You remember the iconic image of the Vietnam War: pushing those helicopters off the aircraft carrier. You could do that in 1975 and be pretty confident that the North Vietnamese weren’t going to follow you to Pennsylvania Avenue or Park Avenue.
There’s no going home from the Middle East because the Middle East is going to come to a neighborhood near you.There’s no going home from the Middle East because the Middle East is going to come to a neighborhood near you.
What does concern us are the financial constraints, combined with the certain sense of war weariness here, that may make the United States less willing or less able to project power into the Middle East.What does concern us are the financial constraints, combined with the certain sense of war weariness here, that may make the United States less willing or less able to project power into the Middle East.