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| Dan Savage on gender politics: 'We all get to stand up and scream and yell' | Dan Savage on gender politics: 'We all get to stand up and scream and yell' |
| (about 5 hours later) | |
| When we talked to love and sex advice columnist Dan Savage for Listen To This, our new series on podcasts, the conversation quickly moved from his work on The Lovecast to his thoughts on gender politics. So we split the interview into two pieces – you can read about his podcast here. | |
| The media tends to use faces to represent entire communities, like Laverne Cox for the trans community, and you for the gay community. What do you think about this? | The media tends to use faces to represent entire communities, like Laverne Cox for the trans community, and you for the gay community. What do you think about this? |
| Well, it’s such a minefield to talk about, because people get so freaked out and upset. I only ever speak for myself. And Laverne only speaks for herself. And being a trans woman is one aspect of Laverne’s humanity that she identifies with, and therefore defaults to representing. And I think she’s embraced that role. | Well, it’s such a minefield to talk about, because people get so freaked out and upset. I only ever speak for myself. And Laverne only speaks for herself. And being a trans woman is one aspect of Laverne’s humanity that she identifies with, and therefore defaults to representing. And I think she’s embraced that role. |
| Being openly gay is a choice. You can move through the world and suck dick on the down-low. You can be, you know, a priest. And the same is true for a lot of trans people. Something that I think has hampered trans awareness and the trans movement is that many don’t want to identify as trans. Transitioning is something they did, and if they’re binary, they identify as male or female and they’re done. That process of disappearing into your new gender, I think, has made it more difficult for a sense of trans community and trans awareness to take fire – even among trans people. So we need the Laverne Coxes, we need the Janet Mocks out there, who are at once the women they are, but also open to acknowledging that they are indeed also trans. | Being openly gay is a choice. You can move through the world and suck dick on the down-low. You can be, you know, a priest. And the same is true for a lot of trans people. Something that I think has hampered trans awareness and the trans movement is that many don’t want to identify as trans. Transitioning is something they did, and if they’re binary, they identify as male or female and they’re done. That process of disappearing into your new gender, I think, has made it more difficult for a sense of trans community and trans awareness to take fire – even among trans people. So we need the Laverne Coxes, we need the Janet Mocks out there, who are at once the women they are, but also open to acknowledging that they are indeed also trans. |
| The burden of representing? It’s a fucking curse and a minefield. Communities like ours need public faces so the broader world can sense our humanity. And we need a diverse array of those faces. For gays, we’re there. There are a lot of public figures that are lesbian and gay. I don’t claim to speak for all gay men, nor do I need to, because there are so many other gay voices out there also speaking. And I think you’re seeing more of that with trans people, which is tremendous and necessary. It’s a double-edged sword. Usually the people who say “How dare you claim to speak for all trans or gay people?” are saying “I want to speak for all trans or gay people.” Because the suggestion is: “On behalf of the LGBT community, I am here to say that you may not speak on behalf of the LGBT community." It’s kind of a dishonest racket, and there’s no upside to engaging with people who approach it from that angle. | The burden of representing? It’s a fucking curse and a minefield. Communities like ours need public faces so the broader world can sense our humanity. And we need a diverse array of those faces. For gays, we’re there. There are a lot of public figures that are lesbian and gay. I don’t claim to speak for all gay men, nor do I need to, because there are so many other gay voices out there also speaking. And I think you’re seeing more of that with trans people, which is tremendous and necessary. It’s a double-edged sword. Usually the people who say “How dare you claim to speak for all trans or gay people?” are saying “I want to speak for all trans or gay people.” Because the suggestion is: “On behalf of the LGBT community, I am here to say that you may not speak on behalf of the LGBT community." It’s kind of a dishonest racket, and there’s no upside to engaging with people who approach it from that angle. |
| Gay people in the public eye run the gamut from Barney Frank and George Takei, to bomb-throwing assholes like me, to a gay teenager I saw in the news, to Jonathan Capehart on MSNBC. So when people say, “You need to shut up and sit down,” as they stand up to scream and yell … No, no. We all get to stand up and scream and yell. That’s the deal. | Gay people in the public eye run the gamut from Barney Frank and George Takei, to bomb-throwing assholes like me, to a gay teenager I saw in the news, to Jonathan Capehart on MSNBC. So when people say, “You need to shut up and sit down,” as they stand up to scream and yell … No, no. We all get to stand up and scream and yell. That’s the deal. |
| How are those tensions influenced by the work you do in your podcast and column? | How are those tensions influenced by the work you do in your podcast and column? |
| You would think from the way that I have to talk about LGBT issues, that’s 90% of the podcast and column, but most of what I talk about in the column and podcast is straight stuff. Which is why I think a lot of LGBT people are freaked out by me and want to police and edit me, and tell me what I may or may not think or say. They know that the people who listen to me are straight people. And that makes my statements and my role seem higher stakes, somehow. There’s always this fear that I’m going to say or do the wrong thing because I have a straight audience. | You would think from the way that I have to talk about LGBT issues, that’s 90% of the podcast and column, but most of what I talk about in the column and podcast is straight stuff. Which is why I think a lot of LGBT people are freaked out by me and want to police and edit me, and tell me what I may or may not think or say. They know that the people who listen to me are straight people. And that makes my statements and my role seem higher stakes, somehow. There’s always this fear that I’m going to say or do the wrong thing because I have a straight audience. |
| There are fewer public faces out there that openly identify with the bisexual community. Why? | There are fewer public faces out there that openly identify with the bisexual community. Why? |
| This is really complicated, and anything you boil this down to is going to get me murdered. | This is really complicated, and anything you boil this down to is going to get me murdered. |
| Gay people come out as teenagers because we have to. If we want to have sex or date, we don’t have the option to put it off. But when you’re 15, bi is actually easier to say, because when you come out as gay, you’re walking back a lot of lies. I came out to my friends and family as bi in high school, because I was dating a guy and I had to tell them something. Bi allows you to have the boyfriend without having gone completely over to the dark side. | Gay people come out as teenagers because we have to. If we want to have sex or date, we don’t have the option to put it off. But when you’re 15, bi is actually easier to say, because when you come out as gay, you’re walking back a lot of lies. I came out to my friends and family as bi in high school, because I was dating a guy and I had to tell them something. Bi allows you to have the boyfriend without having gone completely over to the dark side. |
| A lot of people who are bisexual don’t have to say anything quite yet in high school – they can date opposite sex appropriate partners and put off that moment of reckoning, even if they’re also dating some same-sex partners. A lot of bi people don’t come out until they’re in their 20s and 30s, and by then the lies of omission have gone on for much longer. And that makes coming out as bi hard. | A lot of people who are bisexual don’t have to say anything quite yet in high school – they can date opposite sex appropriate partners and put off that moment of reckoning, even if they’re also dating some same-sex partners. A lot of bi people don’t come out until they’re in their 20s and 30s, and by then the lies of omission have gone on for much longer. And that makes coming out as bi hard. |
| There’s some argument in bi-land, though, that the monosexuals – gay and straight people – have to be more accepting of bi people before they can feel safe enough to come out. Well, if that was the way it worked, no gay people would be out. People were coming out as gay when it was really unsafe. Yes, now it’s safe for people like Jason Collins, the basketball star, to come out. But hairdressers and ballet dancers made the world safe for him to come out in. | There’s some argument in bi-land, though, that the monosexuals – gay and straight people – have to be more accepting of bi people before they can feel safe enough to come out. Well, if that was the way it worked, no gay people would be out. People were coming out as gay when it was really unsafe. Yes, now it’s safe for people like Jason Collins, the basketball star, to come out. But hairdressers and ballet dancers made the world safe for him to come out in. |
| There’s a Pew Research poll that shows that more than 70% of gay men and lesbians are out to “most of the important people in their lives,” but only 28% of bi people are. That’s the problem. As Harvey Milk told gay people, the way to shatter those stereotypes is to be out and confront them. Coming out is what drives change. And a lot of bi people know that. But there’s something about the bisexual experience that makes coming out easier to avoid, and more difficult to do. | There’s a Pew Research poll that shows that more than 70% of gay men and lesbians are out to “most of the important people in their lives,” but only 28% of bi people are. That’s the problem. As Harvey Milk told gay people, the way to shatter those stereotypes is to be out and confront them. Coming out is what drives change. And a lot of bi people know that. But there’s something about the bisexual experience that makes coming out easier to avoid, and more difficult to do. |
| So you think the bi community would be just as culturally prominent as the gay community if more people were openly defining bisexuality in clear terms? | So you think the bi community would be just as culturally prominent as the gay community if more people were openly defining bisexuality in clear terms? |
| Exactly. And, you know … I came out as bi before I was gay, and since most gay people are all the way out, for a lot of people, the only bi people they’ve ever known in their lives are gay people who were lying about being bi. And so they moved through their life thinking that all bi people are lying. And closeted bi people are negatively impacted by that misconception. | Exactly. And, you know … I came out as bi before I was gay, and since most gay people are all the way out, for a lot of people, the only bi people they’ve ever known in their lives are gay people who were lying about being bi. And so they moved through their life thinking that all bi people are lying. And closeted bi people are negatively impacted by that misconception. |
| And I completely own this. Like, “Wow, this is a really fucked up state of affairs that gay people have created for bi people.” We create this misconception. That must be so infuriating for bisexual people that so many people believe it’s a lie and a phase, not because of anything they themselves did. But … come out, then, as bi! The solution is to swamp that impression with fully out, fully bi, bi people. With 70% and more of all bi people closeted, you can’t change that misconception. | And I completely own this. Like, “Wow, this is a really fucked up state of affairs that gay people have created for bi people.” We create this misconception. That must be so infuriating for bisexual people that so many people believe it’s a lie and a phase, not because of anything they themselves did. But … come out, then, as bi! The solution is to swamp that impression with fully out, fully bi, bi people. With 70% and more of all bi people closeted, you can’t change that misconception. |
| There’s also research that shows that there are three times as many bisexual people as gays and lesbians combined. So if all bi people would grow up and come the fuck out, you could throw all the gay people out of the movement! Exile us all. | There’s also research that shows that there are three times as many bisexual people as gays and lesbians combined. So if all bi people would grow up and come the fuck out, you could throw all the gay people out of the movement! Exile us all. |
| Do you think people are becoming more flexible with how they identify? | Do you think people are becoming more flexible with how they identify? |
| We’re getting there. We have these terms now like heteroflexible. And one thing I’ve stumped for for 20 years is that if a girl can have a same-sex experience and not have the whole world look at her and say, “You must be a lesbian,” then we should be able to do the same for guys. The problem is, we say to guys, “You put one dick in your mouth and you have to be gay. You wouldn’t have done that if you weren’t gay.” And that’s just not true. I had sex with girls, it doesn’t make me straight. Or bi. | We’re getting there. We have these terms now like heteroflexible. And one thing I’ve stumped for for 20 years is that if a girl can have a same-sex experience and not have the whole world look at her and say, “You must be a lesbian,” then we should be able to do the same for guys. The problem is, we say to guys, “You put one dick in your mouth and you have to be gay. You wouldn’t have done that if you weren’t gay.” And that’s just not true. I had sex with girls, it doesn’t make me straight. Or bi. |
| What would your most universal piece of sex and love advice be? | What would your most universal piece of sex and love advice be? |
| Oh my God, what would it be? Uh … pay the price of admission and shut the fuck up. | Oh my God, what would it be? Uh … pay the price of admission and shut the fuck up. |
| My husband is a bit of a slob and I clean up after him. And if I didn’t go about my day putting things away and straightening up, we would be on Hoarders. And he doesn’t like it when I talk about it but I don’t bitch at him about it anymore because, you know, that’s the price of admission that I pay to ride this ride. | My husband is a bit of a slob and I clean up after him. And if I didn’t go about my day putting things away and straightening up, we would be on Hoarders. And he doesn’t like it when I talk about it but I don’t bitch at him about it anymore because, you know, that’s the price of admission that I pay to ride this ride. |
| People need to do that. Identify the downsides and accept them. Really accept them. There’s no point in magnifying the problem by adding endless arguments on top of it. You have to say, “I’ll accept x about you as this unchangeable fucking thing that drives me nuts, and you’ll have to do the same about me.” | People need to do that. Identify the downsides and accept them. Really accept them. There’s no point in magnifying the problem by adding endless arguments on top of it. You have to say, “I’ll accept x about you as this unchangeable fucking thing that drives me nuts, and you’ll have to do the same about me.” |
| But really, that’s it. So many problems stem from people unable to pay the price of admission. “Oh, my husband looks at porn and I don’t like it.” Well, do you like other things about your husband? Then maybe you should tolerate the porn. As long as he’s not neglecting or shaming you, and it’s not to the exclusion of true intimacy, turn a fucking blind eye. As bad things go, “My husband’s into porn” … OK, good luck finding a second or third or fourth husband who isn’t. | But really, that’s it. So many problems stem from people unable to pay the price of admission. “Oh, my husband looks at porn and I don’t like it.” Well, do you like other things about your husband? Then maybe you should tolerate the porn. As long as he’s not neglecting or shaming you, and it’s not to the exclusion of true intimacy, turn a fucking blind eye. As bad things go, “My husband’s into porn” … OK, good luck finding a second or third or fourth husband who isn’t. |
| Want more from Dan Savage? Click here to read the other half of his interview. | Want more from Dan Savage? Click here to read the other half of his interview. |