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| Rolf Harris, Savile and Clifford all pulled the wool over my eyes | Rolf Harris, Savile and Clifford all pulled the wool over my eyes |
| (about 3 hours later) | |
| Recently I've been wondering if there is any celebrity I've interviewed who is not being investigated by Operation Yewtree. You name them, I've done them. Max Clifford? Tick. Jimmy Savile? Tick. Rolf Harris? Tick. As an interviewer, it's only natural to wonder how badly you've misjudged these characters. Should I have known? Were there clues? Perhaps it's time for a career change. | Recently I've been wondering if there is any celebrity I've interviewed who is not being investigated by Operation Yewtree. You name them, I've done them. Max Clifford? Tick. Jimmy Savile? Tick. Rolf Harris? Tick. As an interviewer, it's only natural to wonder how badly you've misjudged these characters. Should I have known? Were there clues? Perhaps it's time for a career change. |
| Fourteen years ago I interviewed Savile in a seedy King's Cross hotel. When I walked into the room he was lying on a double bed. Perhaps he was hoping for a vulnerable whippersnapper rather than a middle-aged bloke. If he's playing that game, I thought, so am I. So I jumped on to the bed, lay down and conducted the interview from that position. He looked disturbed and insisted we lie head to toe. | Fourteen years ago I interviewed Savile in a seedy King's Cross hotel. When I walked into the room he was lying on a double bed. Perhaps he was hoping for a vulnerable whippersnapper rather than a middle-aged bloke. If he's playing that game, I thought, so am I. So I jumped on to the bed, lay down and conducted the interview from that position. He looked disturbed and insisted we lie head to toe. |
| Savile was by turns bonkers, obliging (he let me wear his jewellery and have one of his cigars, though he reclaimed it as soon as it had been lit and the photographer had taken a picture of me smoking) and menacing. I felt I was being toyed with. He'd hint at his true nature, tempt you to ask more, then turn on you. When I asked him about the rumours that he was a paedophile, he told me he had started telling people he hated children to deflect the rumours, but that it was rubbish. Yet he kept returning to the subject, as if inviting me to scratch away at his scab. | Savile was by turns bonkers, obliging (he let me wear his jewellery and have one of his cigars, though he reclaimed it as soon as it had been lit and the photographer had taken a picture of me smoking) and menacing. I felt I was being toyed with. He'd hint at his true nature, tempt you to ask more, then turn on you. When I asked him about the rumours that he was a paedophile, he told me he had started telling people he hated children to deflect the rumours, but that it was rubbish. Yet he kept returning to the subject, as if inviting me to scratch away at his scab. |
| At the end of the interview, he told me the following story. "I once said to a girl, 'I'm older than your grandfather.' And she says, 'Well, I love him as well.' I say, 'Good, but I'm still too old for you', and she says, 'No, you're not because you're ageless, you're you.' Now that didn't come from me, it comes from someone else. So when people say to me, 'Don't you think you're too old to do this?', I say I'm doing what I'm doing 'cause I'm having a good time and why don't you piss off and leave me to do it?" | At the end of the interview, he told me the following story. "I once said to a girl, 'I'm older than your grandfather.' And she says, 'Well, I love him as well.' I say, 'Good, but I'm still too old for you', and she says, 'No, you're not because you're ageless, you're you.' Now that didn't come from me, it comes from someone else. So when people say to me, 'Don't you think you're too old to do this?', I say I'm doing what I'm doing 'cause I'm having a good time and why don't you piss off and leave me to do it?" |
| Whereas Savile was never charged with sexual offences, Clifford was, and in May he was sentenced to eight years in jail after being found guilty of eight indecent assaults. Before his trial, I had regarded Clifford, the self-proclaimed "king of spin", as an honest liar. He admitted to making up stories and claimed they served a larger truth. David Mellor was a cad who deserved what was coming to him after preaching family values and having an affair with Antonia de Sancha, so Clifford simply made up the bit about him having sex in his Chelsea top because it served him right. | Whereas Savile was never charged with sexual offences, Clifford was, and in May he was sentenced to eight years in jail after being found guilty of eight indecent assaults. Before his trial, I had regarded Clifford, the self-proclaimed "king of spin", as an honest liar. He admitted to making up stories and claimed they served a larger truth. David Mellor was a cad who deserved what was coming to him after preaching family values and having an affair with Antonia de Sancha, so Clifford simply made up the bit about him having sex in his Chelsea top because it served him right. |
| In court, it emerged that he also told tales to cover up his own criminality. He rubbished his accusers, said he'd never met them, that they were mad, desperate, unattractive, liars. Like Savile, he felt invincible. How could tabloid editors touch him when he fed them their tastiest morsels and kept his own black book on the indiscretions of public figures? In court he said if he was guilty of anything it was greed. He could make women famous and they would pay him back in kind. What man could resist that? | In court, it emerged that he also told tales to cover up his own criminality. He rubbished his accusers, said he'd never met them, that they were mad, desperate, unattractive, liars. Like Savile, he felt invincible. How could tabloid editors touch him when he fed them their tastiest morsels and kept his own black book on the indiscretions of public figures? In court he said if he was guilty of anything it was greed. He could make women famous and they would pay him back in kind. What man could resist that? |
| As with Savile, it was about power and the abuse of power. While "Sir Jimmy" had the establishment eating out of his hand – spending Christmas with Margaret Thatcher at Chequers, acting as a marriage counsellor for Prince Charles and Princess Diana, raising millions for charity – Clifford had the media eating out of his. Like Savile, he was forever telling us about his good deeds. And like Savile, he regarded himself as a good-time guy with an insatiable lust for life. Greedy, that's all they were. | As with Savile, it was about power and the abuse of power. While "Sir Jimmy" had the establishment eating out of his hand – spending Christmas with Margaret Thatcher at Chequers, acting as a marriage counsellor for Prince Charles and Princess Diana, raising millions for charity – Clifford had the media eating out of his. Like Savile, he was forever telling us about his good deeds. And like Savile, he regarded himself as a good-time guy with an insatiable lust for life. Greedy, that's all they were. |
| Clifford was greedy all right – from the Bentleys and Rolls-Royces (just like Savile) to the young girls who came to his office hoping for careers in modelling. If the tabloids had exposed him, I asked when interviewing him, what would it have been for? "They might have said I'm perverted because of a lot of the things I got up to," he said. "Like having three in bed together at the same time, getting women to perform together … to me it was wonderful, hugely enjoyable and everyone else seemed to enjoy it and it never got out." | Clifford was greedy all right – from the Bentleys and Rolls-Royces (just like Savile) to the young girls who came to his office hoping for careers in modelling. If the tabloids had exposed him, I asked when interviewing him, what would it have been for? "They might have said I'm perverted because of a lot of the things I got up to," he said. "Like having three in bed together at the same time, getting women to perform together … to me it was wonderful, hugely enjoyable and everyone else seemed to enjoy it and it never got out." |
| Harris was tried in the same court a few weeks after Clifford was convicted there. Some of the similarities were eerie. Young girls, gropings, often seemingly in public, his victims too embarrassed or ashamed to go to the police; the admission that he was greedy, he liked sex, yes his appetite might have been too healthy, but nothing more. | Harris was tried in the same court a few weeks after Clifford was convicted there. Some of the similarities were eerie. Young girls, gropings, often seemingly in public, his victims too embarrassed or ashamed to go to the police; the admission that he was greedy, he liked sex, yes his appetite might have been too healthy, but nothing more. |
| Harris is the most painful case to process. Savile we always suspected was weird and dark, Clifford you weren't too surprised by. But Harris? The funny fella with the beard and paintbrush, the daft instruments and the undulating accent made for trusting little boys and girls? The avuncular Aussie who surprised us with paintings he magicked out of nowhere, who wobbled those crazy DIY musical instruments? | Harris is the most painful case to process. Savile we always suspected was weird and dark, Clifford you weren't too surprised by. But Harris? The funny fella with the beard and paintbrush, the daft instruments and the undulating accent made for trusting little boys and girls? The avuncular Aussie who surprised us with paintings he magicked out of nowhere, who wobbled those crazy DIY musical instruments? |
| This is the man who was found guilty this week of all 12 charges of indecent assault of young girls, including his daughter's close friend; the pervert who admitted that one of the few conversations he could remember having with his daughter's friend was about removing his semen stains from the sheets. He's not just betrayed himself and his many victims, he's betrayed the very notion of childhood innocence. This week, the Sun alleged that he had visited Broadmoor with Savile, turning up on a women's ward just as they were preparing to undress in the corridor. | This is the man who was found guilty this week of all 12 charges of indecent assault of young girls, including his daughter's close friend; the pervert who admitted that one of the few conversations he could remember having with his daughter's friend was about removing his semen stains from the sheets. He's not just betrayed himself and his many victims, he's betrayed the very notion of childhood innocence. This week, the Sun alleged that he had visited Broadmoor with Savile, turning up on a women's ward just as they were preparing to undress in the corridor. |
| All three are symptomatic of an age when men believed they could have it all, when they didn't think their actions had moral consequences. And even if they did, they weren't answerable to them because of their fame. | All three are symptomatic of an age when men believed they could have it all, when they didn't think their actions had moral consequences. And even if they did, they weren't answerable to them because of their fame. |
| All three hid in plain sight. Clifford boasted of the tricks he played on women to get them to undress in his office, Savile felt up young girls in front of the Top of the Pops cameras, Harris sang comedy songs about sex with 13-year-olds. And nobody said a word. | All three hid in plain sight. Clifford boasted of the tricks he played on women to get them to undress in his office, Savile felt up young girls in front of the Top of the Pops cameras, Harris sang comedy songs about sex with 13-year-olds. And nobody said a word. |
| All three sold themselves to us as protectors of children – Savile clunk-clicking with safety belts and looking after the vulnerable at Stoke Mandeville hospital, Clifford helping to bring Jonathan King to book for downloading child pornography, Harris campaigning on television against child sex abuse, singing, "My body's no body's body but mine / You take care of your body / I'll look after mine". | |
| All three demanded to be noticed, like overgrown schoolboys. Everything about Savile screamed for attention, while Clifford and Harris couldn't help performing even when facing jail. Clifford tried to control the press from the courtroom, while Harris gave the judge and jury a rendition of Jake the Peg and an impersonation of a didgeridoo. When I met them, Savile compared himself to Peter Pan, Clifford to "a kid in a sweetshop" and Harris to "a big kid". | All three demanded to be noticed, like overgrown schoolboys. Everything about Savile screamed for attention, while Clifford and Harris couldn't help performing even when facing jail. Clifford tried to control the press from the courtroom, while Harris gave the judge and jury a rendition of Jake the Peg and an impersonation of a didgeridoo. When I met them, Savile compared himself to Peter Pan, Clifford to "a kid in a sweetshop" and Harris to "a big kid". |
| I have never felt so strongly the presence of two contrasting characters as when I interviewed Harris. For much of the interview he performed, just as he did in court – he sang, he laughed in that exaggerated way, he whispered in that exaggerated way, he drew me a miniature flick cartoon book. Then, when he wasn't performing, he was miserable as sin. | I have never felt so strongly the presence of two contrasting characters as when I interviewed Harris. For much of the interview he performed, just as he did in court – he sang, he laughed in that exaggerated way, he whispered in that exaggerated way, he drew me a miniature flick cartoon book. Then, when he wasn't performing, he was miserable as sin. |
| Whereas Clifford and Savile never appeared to question their essential goodness as men and altruists, Harris hated himself. He talked about what a useless father he'd been – selfish, paying more attention to strangers than to his wife and daughter, chasing his own dreams and desires, ignoring those of his family. He had recently written an autobiography and it had forced him to reassess his life. "You start writing it by thinking what a great guy I am. I've done this, that and the other. Then you suddenly think it's all been inward focussing, only me, me, me, me, me, me, me, and people who are really close …" I never began to suspect why he was so tortured. At the time he came across as a man with humility, in touch with his flaws. But in retrospect, I think even here he was indulging himself – only this time, it was his guilt rather than his libido. | Whereas Clifford and Savile never appeared to question their essential goodness as men and altruists, Harris hated himself. He talked about what a useless father he'd been – selfish, paying more attention to strangers than to his wife and daughter, chasing his own dreams and desires, ignoring those of his family. He had recently written an autobiography and it had forced him to reassess his life. "You start writing it by thinking what a great guy I am. I've done this, that and the other. Then you suddenly think it's all been inward focussing, only me, me, me, me, me, me, me, and people who are really close …" I never began to suspect why he was so tortured. At the time he came across as a man with humility, in touch with his flaws. But in retrospect, I think even here he was indulging himself – only this time, it was his guilt rather than his libido. |
| In interviews, I believe you should always conclude with something that sums up how you feel about the character. After all, it is about the lasting impression. With Savile, I used his quote that I should piss off for even daring to question him about his relationships with young girls. With Clifford, he stood up from behind his desk and his trousers fell down – they had been undone throughout the interview. I didn't think it was sexual, but I did think it was another example of him behaving inappropriately, not caring, showing who was boss. But for Harris, I didn't have a clue. By the end, the self-lacerating Harris had long disappeared and he was singing his songs of blessed innocence, accompanying himself on the human didgeridoo. "Sun arise, come with the dawning, spreading all the light all around." That is the Harris I remembered – or at least the Harris I chose to remember. | In interviews, I believe you should always conclude with something that sums up how you feel about the character. After all, it is about the lasting impression. With Savile, I used his quote that I should piss off for even daring to question him about his relationships with young girls. With Clifford, he stood up from behind his desk and his trousers fell down – they had been undone throughout the interview. I didn't think it was sexual, but I did think it was another example of him behaving inappropriately, not caring, showing who was boss. But for Harris, I didn't have a clue. By the end, the self-lacerating Harris had long disappeared and he was singing his songs of blessed innocence, accompanying himself on the human didgeridoo. "Sun arise, come with the dawning, spreading all the light all around." That is the Harris I remembered – or at least the Harris I chose to remember. |